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1. Lease support since the 2016 refresh has been pretty poor. The GS was a really cheap lease between 2014-2015, but that's not as much the case now. Is a very competitive segment.
2. Most of these cars are not bought by people who are enthusiasts. Look around when you're driving around, who is driving the 5 Series and E Classes and such you see? They're not buyers who care about handling let's put it that way. That buyer goes in and they buy a low trim 528 (530 now) or E300 at those dealers, at Lexus they buy the ES, which is a better car for an everyday non enthusiast buyer. It's bigger, cheaper. If you didn't have the ES, the GS would sell better.
3. Sedans are cold, crossovers are hot. If you look at sedan sales overall, they're weak, crossover and SUV sales are hot. Buyers today are buying the RX, they're buying X5s, they're buying other luxury utilities instead of sedans. Lexus models in general are more susceptible to big sales swings attached to outside factors, always have been.
4. Its old. It's been out for 5 years now (remember the 4GS came out in Feb of 2012). Basically everything else in the segment is newer and fresher now. Lexus models have also always suffered from declining sales over the lifespan of a model more than competitors.
5. It's arguably ugly. The 2016 refresh made the car much more polarizing looking, when other cars in the segment are more universally handsome. As much as I loved my 4GS (might be my favorite car I've ever had) I wouldn't be able to bring myself to buy a refresh 4GS model. I just don't like the changes they made. If I were buying a car in that segment today, it would probably be a new 5 Series. E300 I can't get past the 4cyl. IMHO the refresh ES is a better looking car than the refresh GS, whereas both of those cars before the refresh I think it was the opposite.
6. It feels slow. The NA V6 doesn't feel as punchy as the turbo 6 you can get elsewhere, and on a test drive that has an impact on a buyers opinion of the car.
Remember that when they softened the handling on the 5 series...sales improved. Most customers want better ride vs handling balance. IMHO, making the GS handle better if anything would hurt sales. The Cadillac CTS is widely accepted to be the best handling car in its class...and look how poorly it sells.
Bottom line is, the vast majority of buyers aren't enthusiasts. In this segment they want a car that rides well, looks good, has cool technologies, and leases well. Unfortunately other cars do these things better than the GS and that's why it doesn't sell well. Nothing to do with handling.
I think if Lexus is trying to market the GS as a sports sedan then market it as a sports sedan. Don't just give us a Lexus ES that's RWD and has a little bit more HP. Give us a true sports Sedan because that is why Lexus created the GS line up. But instead they give us a car that has significant body roll during sharp corners. It also doesn't help that their spring is so damn high. Have you seen the gap between the tires and the fenders? I could literally fit 4 fingers in there. Looks like a heavy boat imho. That's why so many people here are lowering their car with Tanabe NF210. But I do believe there is a much greener future ahead. The new 2018 Lexus LS sits way lower now. Maybe Lexus finally learned this is the better way.
Originally Posted by Speed3381
Yup. I feel the same way as you! I understand all the reviews that says this car turns and handles so well during corners. Especially on YouTube. Hellllllla body roll 🙄
I just don't agree with you at all. I've had the ES, I have the LS, and I've had the GS. The GS is completely different than the ES and LS, yes you have to buy the AVS to get the most out of it but that's true of any car with available suspension options. The car is not a boat, and it does not have "significant body roll" in any model, and yes I've also driven the base model. If you think it's anything like the ES you've never driven an ES.
As I explained above, buyers don't want hard riding sport sedans. All the evidence points to that. They want a sharp handling car that also rides well, feels sporty. The GS Fits that bill quite well.
As for the LS and wheel gap, that's a hand built show model. The show GS had much lower stance too. Wait and see the production car.
You don't know what your talking about. That is the new LS and not some concept model. Please research before making false statements on the thread.
"Longer and lower than the sedan it replaces, the all-new LS debuts a strikingly bold design with a coupe-like silhouette punctuated by the Lexus design language. A new driver-centric performance feel comes from building the LS on the company’s all-new global architecture for luxury vehicles (GA–L). This premium rear-wheel drive platform, an extended version of the one used for the stunning new Lexus LC 500 coupe, will offer a more dynamic experience on the road while further elevating renowned Lexus comfort. More than ever before, luxury sedan drivers demand greater handling agility and performance feel without sacrificing comfort. It’s one of the most difficult balances to achieve in a vehicle, yet the new Lexus global architecture for luxury vehicles (GA–L) meets the challenge. The new platform debuted in the LC 500 coupe and now, with a longer wheelbase, underpins the new LS. To enhance center of gravity height and weight distribution, the new LS has a wide and low design. The GA-L platform is the stiffest in Lexus history, setting the stage for enhanced handling, ride smoothness and cabin quietness. The 123-inch wheelbase is 1.3-inch longer than the current LS long-wheelbase model"
They improved the cars handling
Originally Posted by SW15LS
I just don't agree with you at all. I've had the ES, I have the LS, and I've had the GS. The GS is completely different than the ES and LS, yes you have to buy the AVS to get the most out of it but that's true of any car with available suspension options. The car is not a boat, and it does not have "significant body roll" in any model, and yes I've also driven the base model. If you think it's anything like the ES you've never driven an ES.
As I explained above, buyers don't want hard riding sport sedans. All the evidence points to that. They want a sharp handling car that also rides well, feels sporty. The GS Fits that bill quite well.
As for the LS and wheel gap, that's a hand built show model. The show GS had much lower stance too. Wait and see the production car.
The GS is not selling poorly because of poor handling. It's one of the best handling cars in its class, every review says this.
If you want the best handling GS, get one with AVS. If you go around expecting the base car to handle as well as the AVS car you're going to be disappointed. Other cars may have better handling performance base, but those cars start much higher in price than the GS and come standard with adaptive suspension setups.
Not true. Here is what Car & Driver said regarding the 2016 GS350 F-Sport: "Sleep-inducing demeanor, subpar handling and acceleration."
I certainly do know what I'm talking about. That LS is not a production ready car, it's a preproduction car hand built to do the car show circuit. It is the final production LS design, but don't assume that the stance is going to be the same on a production ready car. If you had been around here when the 4GS came out you would remember that the same thing happened. The ride height of the preproduction car shown at car shows looked awesome, when the production ready car came out...well you know what the ride height looks like. Often those preproduction cars have adjustable height to make them look great on the show floor, it's not necessarily the production ride height.
Again, if you hate your GS why are you posting on the GS enthusiast forum? Sell them and move on to a car that you like. I put 50,000 miles on a 4GS, and I've driven everything else in the segment multiple times, my opinion of the car is fully formed and isn't going to be swayed by your complaining or posting of YouTube links or whatever. I think it's a great car, I think it handles great and has a nice balance between sharp handling and comfort. you don't and that's fine.
All I care is that I'm very with the handling and minimal body roll in my GS.
Here's what Motor Trend says:
Remember that E60 535i I mentioned, the one we adored and awarded first place in a February 2010 comparison test? Well, this new Lexus GS 350 F Sport reminds us of that car. A lot. Nimble, balanced, precise, and quick, the GS is a (retired) BMW cloaked in Lexus steel. At 3834 pounds, the GS is the lightest of the four and it feels it — turn-in is sharp and accurate, and weight transfer, whether lateral or longitudinal, is neutral and composed. The Lexus proved the most entertaining, rewarding, and confidence-inspiring up, down, and along our demanding Malibu road loop. Ultimate driving machine? Oh, yeah.
Lieberman: “Great steering. Balanced, communicative, properly weighted. Just a joy to drive. Neutral without being leaden. Very Mazda-like, in fact. And I say all this having driven the car in Sport instead of Sport Plus.” Evans: “This is a Lexus? Really impressed with the handling and confidence in the car. Holds the road much better than expected. Can really fling it at the corners.” Martinez: “The Sport Plus algorithm allows for a proper testing of its grip thresholds, and on the loop’s tight technical zigzags, it was just right. Only once did any traction control light flash, and, unlike the Infiniti, shifts were clean, fast, and when you wanted them. Also unlike the Infiniti: The Lexus felt way smaller than it was. Like, really smaller.”
The article is dated now but sums up my impressions well. It's from a comparison when they rated the GS as better than the M37, 535, and A6. Those cars are getting updated so it'll be interesting to see what Lexus does with the next GS in response.
This was the preproduction car show circuit and press photo 4GS. Does the production 4GS have this ride height? This car is not lowered, this picture is from Lexus.
Like I said, wait and see what the production 5LS ride height looks like before you get excited.
As for reviews. Like I said the car is old now, recent reviews of the car aren't as good as reviews of the car when it was new. Check out reviews from 2012, people were quite surprised with the car.
I'm not saying I hate my GS. Just saying it could have been so much more. It could have been Legendary. But when I make a really sharp turn at 55 mph, I mean the car is turning but my whole body is like leaning towards the drivers door. So damn uncomfortable and quite scary. And you can't stop it unless you take the turn 25 mph �� But whatever. It's a "Sports Sedan" right.
Originally Posted by SW15LS
I certainly do know what I'm talking about. That LS is not a production ready car, it's a preproduction car hand built to do the car show circuit. It is the final production LS design, but don't assume that the stance is going to be the same on a production ready car. If you had been around here when the 4GS came out you would remember that the same thing happened. The ride height of the preproduction car shown at car shows looked awesome, when the production ready car came out...well you know what the ride height looks like. Often those preproduction cars have adjustable height to make them look great on the show floor, it's not necessarily the production ride height.
Again, if you hate your GS why are you posting on the GS enthusiast forum? Sell them and move on to a car that you like. I put 50,000 miles on a 4GS, and I've driven everything else in the segment multiple times, my opinion of the car is fully formed and isn't going to be swayed by your complaining or posting of YouTube links or whatever. I think it's a great car, I think it handles great and has a nice balance between sharp handling and comfort. you don't and that's fine.
I have owned both a '15 non-F sport and a '16 F-sport. There is a big difference in the ride and handling of the 2 cars (as others have mentioned in this thread). The non F is much more pitchy and looser and exhibits dive forward when braking. I wouldn't have considered another GS because of those issues; however I drove the '16 F sport and the AVS suspension exhibited none of the aforementioned issues. Truly a different car with the AVS (which is active at all times regardless of drive mode). I am delighted with the'16 F Sport.
Incidentally, that negative 2016 Car and Driver review was really off base and has been refuted by other recent articles.
My next car will probably be a WRX STI. I know it's a totally different car compared to the GS but it's a true Sports Sedan ������
Sounds to me like thats more your sort of car. I prefer a more "mature" car.
Its all about expectations. You expect a GS (on the basic suspension no less) to handle like a WRX STi and thats not a reasonable expectation. When you compare it to cars that it actually competes with, it compares just fine. If flat handling at the extpense of everything else (which is what I would say you get in that STi) is what you want, then the GS or any similar car was the wrong car to purchase. Those of us who selected the GS with the expectations that a typical buyer in this segment has doesn't want it to be like an STi lol.
Originally Posted by gflexus
I have owned both a '15 non-F sport and a '16 F-sport. There is a big difference in the ride and handling of the 2 cars (as others have mentioned in this thread). The non F is much more pitchy and looser and exhibits dive forward when braking. I wouldn't have considered another GS because of those issues; however I drove the '16 F sport and the AVS suspension exhibited none of the aforementioned issues. Truly a different car with the AVS (which is active at all times regardless of drive mode). I am delighted with the'16 F Sport.
The AVS is a must have on the car I agree.
Originally Posted by Speed3381
I'm not saying I hate my GS. Just saying it could have been so much more. It could have been Legendary. But when I make a really sharp turn at 55 mph, I mean the car is turning but my whole body is like leaning towards the drivers door. So damn uncomfortable and quite scary. And you can't stop it unless you take the turn 25 mph �� But whatever. It's a "Sports Sedan" right.
Could have been a lot more...and all you would have had to do was buy the AVS option and it could have been that.
I've already seen that video on bad suspension mods.
If you think the GS350 handles well without much body roll, you haven't driven many other cars.
I've heavily modified my 2001 IS300, so that is my comparison. I'm not expecting the GS to be anywhere near my IS, but even my uncle's stock IS300 does not have this amount of GS body roll.
And I'm not even pushing the GS hard. It's just got so much body roll even in normal city curves or even parking lot turns.
I'm assuming the F sport sway bars are thicker and stiffer than the base 2014 GS350 sway bars?
I think that's the safest bet, just buy the Rear F sport sway bar.
Of course the IS has less body roll and handles better. It's a much smaller, lighter more sport focused car. Do you think a 5 Series has more body roll and handles less securely than a 3 Series? It does.
If you want a car that handles like an IS, stay in an IS.
If you want the best handling GS, it's the F Sport with AVS (outside of the GS-F) it's not the basic model.
It's all about perspective. Comparing a basic stock GS to a modified or even a stock IS makes no sense.
It would be like me complaining that my LS has more body roll than my GS did. Of course it does. It's a much larger, heavier car built for a different segment and customer.
03-11-17, 09:09 AM
