Is Lexus killing (discontinuing) the GS Line ? (Merged threads)
08-27-19, 08:53 AM
#586
The LS500 was a calculated and planned redesign. It has it's own market niche.
The ES 350 came around, almost too late after the UX/NX introductions. Better late than never. It's close to a 300hp car now which is an understated performance boost over previous ES350.
The 2020 decade of cars is all about the car experience. Advanced safety features have become standard. How can Lexus perfect the "USER EXPERIENCE" or UX to complement the driver. How can Lexus make it reliable enough and future-proofed (tech wise) to last 6-10 years.
Does Lexus need to sell a GS/GSF car at 5-10k units per year? They can afford to but do not need the GS for their 'identity'. This is going to be a drop in the bucket over what the Model 3 or Y or Truck will do yearly. If it does not sell in sufficient volumes, why even bother with the multi millions to re-tool and form the metal stamping dies.
I would be far more interested in Lexus revamping RX and GS into a design blending the best of both. Call it a Sporty version of the RX and get to 10-15k+ unit sales monthly. It can reclaim the top of the pecking order in SUV's and future UX/NX models can benefit from tech advancements trickling down from this. There's no elephant sized need to push sales of a sedan when the market will do it for you in the SUV segment. It's not just the engine that easily 'solves' the GS identity crisis. A dated and smartphone incompatible interior has shown lexus to be very behind the tech curve and slow to 'fix' things (easier to keep the current supply chain intact than to disrupt it, or their infotainment system is too integrated to what the car does in a home grown manner that it is inflexible to newer and better tech).
The old days of good transmission/good engine/good looks will sell a car are over. Pricing it anywhere north of $40k needs to have the goods or the buyer keeps on looking for that 'car/suv experience' to make it worth what paid for. More of the same ol 'GS wont cut the mustard and for 3-4 years it's been the same old song and dance. The new sheriff in town does not have a gas engine and is systematically draining sales in the 50-100k price segment globally (Lexus/MB/BMW/Audi/Porsche/etc). The era of vehicles becoming smarter and smarter has arrived and Lexus cannot afford to be dumb with their future line up.
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Albo (08-28-19)
08-27-19, 09:24 AM
#588
I would be far more interested in Lexus revamping RX and GS into a design blending the best of both. Call it a Sporty version of the RX and get to 10-15k+ unit sales monthly. It can reclaim the top of the pecking order in SUV's and future UX/NX models can benefit from tech advancements trickling down from this. There's no elephant sized need to push sales of a sedan when the market will do it for you in the SUV segment. It's not just the engine that easily 'solves' the GS identity crisis. A dated and smartphone incompatible interior has shown lexus to be very behind the tech curve and slow to 'fix' things (easier to keep the current supply chain intact than to disrupt it, or their infotainment system is too integrated to what the car does in a home grown manner that it is inflexible to newer and better tech).
The old days of good transmission/good engine/good looks will sell a car are over. Pricing it anywhere north of $40k needs to have the goods or the buyer keeps on looking for that 'car/suv experience' to make it worth what paid for. More of the same ol 'GS wont cut the mustard and for 3-4 years it's been the same old song and dance. The new sheriff in town does not have a gas engine and is systematically draining sales in the 50-100k price segment globally (Lexus/MB/BMW/Audi/Porsche/etc). The era of vehicles becoming smarter and smarter has arrived and Lexus cannot afford to be dumb with their future line up.
The old days of good transmission/good engine/good looks will sell a car are over. Pricing it anywhere north of $40k needs to have the goods or the buyer keeps on looking for that 'car/suv experience' to make it worth what paid for. More of the same ol 'GS wont cut the mustard and for 3-4 years it's been the same old song and dance. The new sheriff in town does not have a gas engine and is systematically draining sales in the 50-100k price segment globally (Lexus/MB/BMW/Audi/Porsche/etc). The era of vehicles becoming smarter and smarter has arrived and Lexus cannot afford to be dumb with their future line up.
It was funny, when I was young and dumb I used to make fun of the Camry. Then I bought a couple, and now, recently, I realized that consumers had rapidly sunk even far below that.
-Mike
08-27-19, 10:34 AM
#589
Pole Position
Talking about sedans ONLY, the IS and to a smaller extent, the GS are the models in Lexus that attract the car enthusiast segment. This segment is insignificant compared to the general car buying public in helping car companies' bottom line but are crucial for the brand's image and are also the most ardent brand evangelists.
Therefore, the IS and GS main function is to appeal to petrol-heads and not to be the primary bread winner for Lexus.
The IS and the 2GS subforums are historically the most active in CL showing how they succeeded in their primary function.
Go to BMW forums and the 3 and 5 series sections are the most active.
Problem is that the 3 and 5 series are both the boring breadwinners and the sexy cover model of the brand. For Lexus, the sedan breadwinner is the ES sedan.
Maybe Lexus should abandon trying to make the GS an inferior clone of the ES in terms of being a beige point A to B profits margins monster and just own the inner beast that lurks in the GS dna.
A hp class leading(at that time) V8 GS400/430 in the 2GS probably made poor sense economically to Lexus but it did wonders to sexing up the brand's image.
Lexus sort of lost their way in the 3GS and 4GS by trying to be all things to all people : a sensible people carrier and also a sexy fashion statement and not fully succeeding at either. Note how the 3GS and 4GS subforums never equalled the 2GS subforum at its height.
Lexus should stop worrying about the GS becoming a huge money making model in the lineup and just move the GS way way upmarket. Don't nerf the highest mainstream engine in the new GS for fear of stepping on the big brother LS toes, in fact give the GS segment leading horsepower and acceleration, give the GS the grancoupe treatment ie a 4 door coupe with jaw dropping styling AND most crucially, price the car so that it is realistically attainable by middle class car enthusiasts. Never mind if it barely makes money, these submodels rarely sell in numbers that make a huge dent in the company's bottom line. Instead focus on using the GS sex appeal and relative attainability to grow the enthusiast population in Lexus consumer base.
How will Lexus know it succeeded? When the 5GS subforum is the most active on CL and dominates in views and posts like the 2GS subforum dominated CL in the late 90s and early 2000s and when performance aftermarket parts for the car are as plentiful as they were for the 2GS.
Therefore, the IS and GS main function is to appeal to petrol-heads and not to be the primary bread winner for Lexus.
The IS and the 2GS subforums are historically the most active in CL showing how they succeeded in their primary function.
Go to BMW forums and the 3 and 5 series sections are the most active.
Problem is that the 3 and 5 series are both the boring breadwinners and the sexy cover model of the brand. For Lexus, the sedan breadwinner is the ES sedan.
Maybe Lexus should abandon trying to make the GS an inferior clone of the ES in terms of being a beige point A to B profits margins monster and just own the inner beast that lurks in the GS dna.
A hp class leading(at that time) V8 GS400/430 in the 2GS probably made poor sense economically to Lexus but it did wonders to sexing up the brand's image.
Lexus sort of lost their way in the 3GS and 4GS by trying to be all things to all people : a sensible people carrier and also a sexy fashion statement and not fully succeeding at either. Note how the 3GS and 4GS subforums never equalled the 2GS subforum at its height.
Lexus should stop worrying about the GS becoming a huge money making model in the lineup and just move the GS way way upmarket. Don't nerf the highest mainstream engine in the new GS for fear of stepping on the big brother LS toes, in fact give the GS segment leading horsepower and acceleration, give the GS the grancoupe treatment ie a 4 door coupe with jaw dropping styling AND most crucially, price the car so that it is realistically attainable by middle class car enthusiasts. Never mind if it barely makes money, these submodels rarely sell in numbers that make a huge dent in the company's bottom line. Instead focus on using the GS sex appeal and relative attainability to grow the enthusiast population in Lexus consumer base.
How will Lexus know it succeeded? When the 5GS subforum is the most active on CL and dominates in views and posts like the 2GS subforum dominated CL in the late 90s and early 2000s and when performance aftermarket parts for the car are as plentiful as they were for the 2GS.
Last edited by natnut; 08-27-19 at 10:44 AM.
08-27-19, 12:43 PM
#590
Talking about sedans ONLY, the IS and to a smaller extent, the GS are the models in Lexus that attract the car enthusiast segment. This segment is insignificant compared to the general car buying public in helping car companies' bottom line but are crucial for the brand's image and are also the most ardent brand evangelists.
Therefore, the IS and GS main function is to appeal to petrol-heads and not to be the primary bread winner for Lexus.
The IS and the 2GS subforums are historically the most active in CL showing how they succeeded in their primary function.
Go to BMW forums and the 3 and 5 series sections are the most active.
Problem is that the 3 and 5 series are both the boring breadwinners and the sexy cover model of the brand. For Lexus, the sedan breadwinner is the ES sedan.
Maybe Lexus should abandon trying to make the GS an inferior clone of the ES in terms of being a beige point A to B profits margins monster and just own the inner beast that lurks in the GS dna.
A hp class leading(at that time) V8 GS400/430 in the 2GS probably made poor sense economically to Lexus but it did wonders to sexing up the brand's image.
Lexus sort of lost their way in the 3GS and 4GS by trying to be all things to all people : a sensible people carrier and also a sexy fashion statement and not fully succeeding at either. Note how the 3GS and 4GS subforums never equalled the 2GS subforum at its height.
Lexus should stop worrying about the GS becoming a huge money making model in the lineup and just move the GS way way upmarket. Don't nerf the highest mainstream engine in the new GS for fear of stepping on the big brother LS toes, in fact give the GS segment leading horsepower and acceleration, give the GS the grancoupe treatment ie a 4 door coupe with jaw dropping styling AND most crucially, price the car so that it is realistically attainable by middle class car enthusiasts. Never mind if it barely makes money, these submodels rarely sell in numbers that make a huge dent in the company's bottom line. Instead focus on using the GS sex appeal and relative attainability to grow the enthusiast population in Lexus consumer base.
How will Lexus know it succeeded? When the 5GS subforum is the most active on CL and dominates in views and posts like the 2GS subforum dominated CL in the late 90s and early 2000s and when performance aftermarket parts for the car are as plentiful as they were for the 2GS.
Therefore, the IS and GS main function is to appeal to petrol-heads and not to be the primary bread winner for Lexus.
The IS and the 2GS subforums are historically the most active in CL showing how they succeeded in their primary function.
Go to BMW forums and the 3 and 5 series sections are the most active.
Problem is that the 3 and 5 series are both the boring breadwinners and the sexy cover model of the brand. For Lexus, the sedan breadwinner is the ES sedan.
Maybe Lexus should abandon trying to make the GS an inferior clone of the ES in terms of being a beige point A to B profits margins monster and just own the inner beast that lurks in the GS dna.
A hp class leading(at that time) V8 GS400/430 in the 2GS probably made poor sense economically to Lexus but it did wonders to sexing up the brand's image.
Lexus sort of lost their way in the 3GS and 4GS by trying to be all things to all people : a sensible people carrier and also a sexy fashion statement and not fully succeeding at either. Note how the 3GS and 4GS subforums never equalled the 2GS subforum at its height.
Lexus should stop worrying about the GS becoming a huge money making model in the lineup and just move the GS way way upmarket. Don't nerf the highest mainstream engine in the new GS for fear of stepping on the big brother LS toes, in fact give the GS segment leading horsepower and acceleration, give the GS the grancoupe treatment ie a 4 door coupe with jaw dropping styling AND most crucially, price the car so that it is realistically attainable by middle class car enthusiasts. Never mind if it barely makes money, these submodels rarely sell in numbers that make a huge dent in the company's bottom line. Instead focus on using the GS sex appeal and relative attainability to grow the enthusiast population in Lexus consumer base.
How will Lexus know it succeeded? When the 5GS subforum is the most active on CL and dominates in views and posts like the 2GS subforum dominated CL in the late 90s and early 2000s and when performance aftermarket parts for the car are as plentiful as they were for the 2GS.
What drives the BMW 3series and 5series forums is the volume of cars on the general market on that platform, and thus an aftermarket opportunity will thrive for these cars. No way we'll get any significant traction on a car that may be lucky to break into 20-30k sales units for the first year.
Late '90 - early 2000 era means 20-25 years ago and well before the SUV has become mainstream. Folks who want customizable and modable lexus may find it's harder to do because of tech integrations and turbo options. Easier done back then when engines were simpler. I even heard from car enthusiasts that when BMW when from straight 6 to turbo, it became a different kind of car to entangle with and ended up advising old school BMW options instead of anything with a twin turbo. For Lexus to put their 'quality, luxury, and perfection' badge on something -- they really are interested in keeping things stock and delivering you the best possible product, and of course keeping you out of the engine or computer for any mods. Times have changed, and so have buyers tastes and their capabilites to mod advanced engines. Many will be better off with older cars they can mod versus today's cars that can turn into a very very expensive money pit (and a few blown engines too).
08-28-19, 09:31 AM
#591
Pole Position
The market "experts" are warning a possible recession coming. Automakers are well aware of this. I'm sure Lexus does not want to upscale the GS and target a higher price point at this stage. I'm convinced the GS will be axed and possibly brought back later in the decade.
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AJLex19 (08-28-19)
08-28-19, 09:58 AM
#592
It seems like Lexus does not want its models to step onto eachother in terms of horsepower and that is really hurting the GS line. The GSF seem very underpowered compared to competitors (even though the competitor is more expensive) and dont seem to want to go over their supercar LFA HP rating. The GS-F power is slightly above the 550i with no real room for big increases whereas the 550i with very cheap mods puts it power ratings really high. The new V6TT could be thing that starts making the GS more competitive and attractive to buyers. Increase the boost and pump out some more power or just call the GSF a GS500 or something and make a real M5 competitor.
08-28-19, 11:27 AM
#595
The experts that say an inverted yield curve means a recession is about a year away. The inverted yield curve is when the 10-year Treasury note has a lower yield than a two-year note or any other shorter term bond.
When you invest in any sort of bond or note, you expect to receive a higher yield the longer the term. It makes sense, but if bond investors start to worry about the economy they take their money out of the 10 year bonds. This is happening now.
Inverted yield curves don't come along very often. But when they do come, they tend to send investors, policy makers, and pundits into a worry. Part of that is due to the fact that an inverted curve between three-month and 10-year Treasury notes has come ahead of every recession in the last 50 years.
I've been waiting for this bubble to burst so I can buy a house at a more reasonable price, lol. Housing prices around me are the highest they have ever been needs to come back down to earth.
When you invest in any sort of bond or note, you expect to receive a higher yield the longer the term. It makes sense, but if bond investors start to worry about the economy they take their money out of the 10 year bonds. This is happening now.
Inverted yield curves don't come along very often. But when they do come, they tend to send investors, policy makers, and pundits into a worry. Part of that is due to the fact that an inverted curve between three-month and 10-year Treasury notes has come ahead of every recession in the last 50 years.
I've been waiting for this bubble to burst so I can buy a house at a more reasonable price, lol. Housing prices around me are the highest they have ever been needs to come back down to earth.
Last edited by peasodos; 08-28-19 at 11:31 AM.
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AJLex19 (08-28-19)
08-28-19, 12:00 PM
#596
Lead Lap
The experts that say an inverted yield curve means a recession is about a year away. The inverted yield curve is when the 10-year Treasury note has a lower yield than a two-year note or any other shorter term bond.
When you invest in any sort of bond or note, you expect to receive a higher yield the longer the term. It makes sense, but if bond investors start to worry about the economy they take their money out of the 10 year bonds. This is happening now.
Inverted yield curves don't come along very often. But when they do come, they tend to send investors, policy makers, and pundits into a worry. Part of that is due to the fact that an inverted curve between three-month and 10-year Treasury notes has come ahead of every recession in the last 50 years.
I've been waiting for this bubble to burst so I can buy a house at a more reasonable price, lol. Housing prices around me are the highest they have ever been needs to come back down to earth.
When you invest in any sort of bond or note, you expect to receive a higher yield the longer the term. It makes sense, but if bond investors start to worry about the economy they take their money out of the 10 year bonds. This is happening now.
Inverted yield curves don't come along very often. But when they do come, they tend to send investors, policy makers, and pundits into a worry. Part of that is due to the fact that an inverted curve between three-month and 10-year Treasury notes has come ahead of every recession in the last 50 years.
I've been waiting for this bubble to burst so I can buy a house at a more reasonable price, lol. Housing prices around me are the highest they have ever been needs to come back down to earth.
But back to the GS discussion - seeing Toyota keep the 2019 and 2020 GS as completely unchanged (in the GS350 and GS F) but remain in the lineup means they are also unsure about the overall market conditions that will prevail not only in overall economy but also in the automotive sector (move toward crossovers/SUVs, move toward electrification, move toward more infotainment tech).
It feels like they are in a lengthy holding pattern with the GS until something else triggers their next move...more reactive than proactive which may not be such a terrible idea at this point.
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Albo (08-28-19)
08-28-19, 12:09 PM
#597
The experts that say an inverted yield curve means a recession is about a year away. The inverted yield curve is when the 10-year Treasury note has a lower yield than a two-year note or any other shorter term bond.
When you invest in any sort of bond or note, you expect to receive a higher yield the longer the term. It makes sense, but if bond investors start to worry about the economy they take their money out of the 10 year bonds. This is happening now.
Inverted yield curves don't come along very often. But when they do come, they tend to send investors, policy makers, and pundits into a worry. Part of that is due to the fact that an inverted curve between three-month and 10-year Treasury notes has come ahead of every recession in the last 50 years.
I've been waiting for this bubble to burst so I can buy a house at a more reasonable price, lol. Housing prices around me are the highest they have ever been needs to come back down to earth.
When you invest in any sort of bond or note, you expect to receive a higher yield the longer the term. It makes sense, but if bond investors start to worry about the economy they take their money out of the 10 year bonds. This is happening now.
Inverted yield curves don't come along very often. But when they do come, they tend to send investors, policy makers, and pundits into a worry. Part of that is due to the fact that an inverted curve between three-month and 10-year Treasury notes has come ahead of every recession in the last 50 years.
I've been waiting for this bubble to burst so I can buy a house at a more reasonable price, lol. Housing prices around me are the highest they have ever been needs to come back down to earth.
08-28-19, 05:56 PM
#598
Forum Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Folks, pruned a couple of posts political in nature. Let’s keep that out of the discussion please
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/faq...les#faq_debate
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/faq...les#faq_debate
08-28-19, 06:01 PM
#599
Pole Position
I agree with Lexus taking a wait and see approach. They should be proactive and not reactive. Change the game up. GS needs something groundbreaking to stay relevant and get back into the buyer's mind.
08-29-19, 05:09 AM
#600
The 5GS has to bring the heat. Lexus is taking its good ole time on this redesign. If they wanted to discontinue the GS Line they would’ve did it by now. With it returinging for year 2020 unchanged this gives me hope that Akio and his minions are hard at work on something really spicy.
I sure hope they reverse engineered the Audi A7-S7. I owned one for a very short time after loosing my 4GS in a crash this year and I was quite satisfied with the overall experience of living with it day to day.
The fundmental thing is the next generation GS has to be lower and wider with a streched wheelbase and shortened overhangs. With the hatchback design Lexus will attract the active lifestyle type buyers along with keeping the general shape of a 4 door coupe/sedan.
Powertrain options need to very advanced and diverse to further separate it from the ES.
Twin turbo V6 and V8 options with AWD as standard equipment and four wheel steering being a option on both models.
To further compliment the GS the GSh hybrid needs to do what the last gen GSh did, but without compromising cargo capacity and AWD.
The price should reflect the high level build quality, but still not encroach on the very expensive offerings from Germany.
I sure hope they reverse engineered the Audi A7-S7. I owned one for a very short time after loosing my 4GS in a crash this year and I was quite satisfied with the overall experience of living with it day to day.
The fundmental thing is the next generation GS has to be lower and wider with a streched wheelbase and shortened overhangs. With the hatchback design Lexus will attract the active lifestyle type buyers along with keeping the general shape of a 4 door coupe/sedan.
Powertrain options need to very advanced and diverse to further separate it from the ES.
Twin turbo V6 and V8 options with AWD as standard equipment and four wheel steering being a option on both models.
To further compliment the GS the GSh hybrid needs to do what the last gen GSh did, but without compromising cargo capacity and AWD.
The price should reflect the high level build quality, but still not encroach on the very expensive offerings from Germany.