Is Lexus killing (discontinuing) the GS Line ? (Merged threads)
01-18-21, 09:00 AM
#781
Instructor
Interesting....I did just find one article on it at autoblog from this past November that mentions a rumor:
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/11/19/...tinued-report/
I found a few others that all seem to reference the same Japanese newspaper article and they're all nearly identical in their wording.
No official announcement that I found but I was looking pretty quickly.
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/11/19/...tinued-report/
I found a few others that all seem to reference the same Japanese newspaper article and they're all nearly identical in their wording.
No official announcement that I found but I was looking pretty quickly.
01-18-21, 10:33 AM
#782
Instructor
To me and my way of thinking, battery electrics and battery hybrids are stopgaps. They are the laserdisc of automotive technology. It served a purpose but it isn't sustainable. You lose a lot in the various conversion processes. First, you turn heat/wind/solar into electricity. You convert electricity into stored potential in a battery that is a gross polluter to create. Then you convert battery potential into power for the electric motors. Every conversion is a loss due to heat and inefficiencies. If that gets your panties in a wad, it is still true.
For the REAL future of automotive technology, look at what NASA has been doing for a very long time: Fuel cells. They are the future, primarily H2 fuel cells. It is much more efficient and the only emissions are water vapor. You can literally make your own fuel from water and a solar panel. Water to hydrogen, hydrogen to water. The elimination of complexity is the key real innovation. The whole process is carbon free.
For the REAL future of automotive technology, look at what NASA has been doing for a very long time: Fuel cells. They are the future, primarily H2 fuel cells. It is much more efficient and the only emissions are water vapor. You can literally make your own fuel from water and a solar panel. Water to hydrogen, hydrogen to water. The elimination of complexity is the key real innovation. The whole process is carbon free.
I love the Laserdisc analogy. I was just talking to a friend the other day about those and he had never seen one. How many of those early techs stayed around - in the consumer world at least. Betamax? No MiniDisc? No HD-DVD? Nope. Yes some had decent starts and some found homes in specific areas industries.Hydrogen is definitely something that I think we'll see more of, as Knucklebus points out - the chemistry and physics of HFC has some significant advantages over BEV. For me, the one key thing is that you can fill your tank in about the same time or less than you can fill a tank with gasoline. For a lot of consumers, especially folks in the big western states, that's a major advantage. Those states also often have great solar potential so Knucklebus point about creation also fits well. From what I read, creating hydrogen from water is only about 70-80% efficient but when you take all the inefficiencies of generation, transmission, storage conversion, back to power conversion, etc... it still pencils out.
There was this this interesting article in the NYT about hydrogen.
BEV also has an issue with the current electric capacity of the grid and generation as referenced in this article. Not even counting scheduled blackout due to wild fire concerns, parts of the grid can't even keep up with A/C demand in the summer. We're looking at electric companies declaring bankruptcy (for whatever reasons you want to blame) - how's a company that's already under financial stress going to spend billions (or more) to expand?
That's not to say BEV won't be part of the mix as well as gas/electric hybrids. To me declaring any propulsion technology the final winner or loser at this point is still a bit premature.
The following 2 users liked this post by LexusGSboy:
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01-18-21, 02:40 PM
#783
Lots of good points.
In CA, the electric grid is terrible. We can get into rolling blackouts easily in the summer. Either the politicians are clueless or are in denial, if they push for electric vehicles they would put $$$ into the electric grids ahead of time.
IMO, EV or hybrid EV maybe the thing now and in the future. That could be years or 10+ years off when there will be less gas vehicles.
For Example, if one lives in an apartment, how do you charge the EV? I seemed the apartments may have only 1-3 EV charging stations. Cost for charge stations are expensive also.
I love the Laserdisc analogy. I was just talking to a friend the other day about those and he had never seen one. How many of those early techs stayed around - in the consumer world at least. Betamax? No MiniDisc? No HD-DVD? Nope. Yes some had decent starts and some found homes in specific areas industries.
Hydrogen is definitely something that I think we'll see more of, as Knucklebus points out - the chemistry and physics of HFC has some significant advantages over BEV. For me, the one key thing is that you can fill your tank in about the same time or less than you can fill a tank with gasoline. For a lot of consumers, especially folks in the big western states, that's a major advantage. Those states also often have great solar potential so Knucklebus point about creation also fits well. From what I read, creating hydrogen from water is only about 70-80% efficient but when you take all the inefficiencies of generation, transmission, storage conversion, back to power conversion, etc... it still pencils out.
There was this this interesting article in the NYT about hydrogen.
BEV also has an issue with the current electric capacity of the grid and generation as referenced in this article. Not even counting scheduled blackout due to wild fire concerns, parts of the grid can't even keep up with A/C demand in the summer. We're looking at electric companies declaring bankruptcy (for whatever reasons you want to blame) - how's a company that's already under financial stress going to spend billions (or more) to expand?
That's not to say BEV won't be part of the mix as well as gas/electric hybrids. To me declaring any propulsion technology the final winner or loser at this point is still a bit premature.
In CA, the electric grid is terrible. We can get into rolling blackouts easily in the summer. Either the politicians are clueless or are in denial, if they push for electric vehicles they would put $$$ into the electric grids ahead of time.
IMO, EV or hybrid EV maybe the thing now and in the future. That could be years or 10+ years off when there will be less gas vehicles.
For Example, if one lives in an apartment, how do you charge the EV? I seemed the apartments may have only 1-3 EV charging stations. Cost for charge stations are expensive also.
I love the Laserdisc analogy. I was just talking to a friend the other day about those and he had never seen one. How many of those early techs stayed around - in the consumer world at least. Betamax? No MiniDisc? No HD-DVD? Nope. Yes some had decent starts and some found homes in specific areas industries.Hydrogen is definitely something that I think we'll see more of, as Knucklebus points out - the chemistry and physics of HFC has some significant advantages over BEV. For me, the one key thing is that you can fill your tank in about the same time or less than you can fill a tank with gasoline. For a lot of consumers, especially folks in the big western states, that's a major advantage. Those states also often have great solar potential so Knucklebus point about creation also fits well. From what I read, creating hydrogen from water is only about 70-80% efficient but when you take all the inefficiencies of generation, transmission, storage conversion, back to power conversion, etc... it still pencils out.
There was this this interesting article in the NYT about hydrogen.
BEV also has an issue with the current electric capacity of the grid and generation as referenced in this article. Not even counting scheduled blackout due to wild fire concerns, parts of the grid can't even keep up with A/C demand in the summer. We're looking at electric companies declaring bankruptcy (for whatever reasons you want to blame) - how's a company that's already under financial stress going to spend billions (or more) to expand?
That's not to say BEV won't be part of the mix as well as gas/electric hybrids. To me declaring any propulsion technology the final winner or loser at this point is still a bit premature.
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ThaPhenom (01-06-22)
01-19-21, 09:10 AM
#784
Lexus Test Driver
So u would need a gas generator to charge ur electric cars during a rolling blackout.
I charge my GS at the gas station for 1 min and can go 400+ miles.
I charge my GS at the gas station for 1 min and can go 400+ miles.
The following users liked this post:
ThaPhenom (01-06-22)
01-19-21, 09:39 AM
#785
Lexus Champion
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Knucklebus (01-19-21)
01-19-21, 09:55 AM
#786
Lexus Fanatic
01-19-21, 10:24 AM
#787
Lexus Champion
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Knucklebus (01-19-21)
01-19-21, 10:27 AM
#788
Lexus Test Driver
They should have a backup generator since they're sitting on an unlimited amount of fuel.
01-19-21, 11:34 AM
#789
Instructor
01-19-21, 01:49 PM
#790
Instructor
The point about folks in apartments is interesting - you would likely need something at every parking space but I'm sure something could be figured out.
So I'm just curious and no judgement, we all have our thoughts and concerns, if the GS came back as a very fun to drive BEV, what would have to change about BEVs to make you consider it?
I say this leaving the other issues around BEVs such as politics and the environment out of it. That's something for another forum somewhere.... I also don't have enough experience with them to say there's no way to make them fun/great to drive so maybe my initial premise is flawed? I don't think it is - but I'm also one who still hates turbos no matter what you tell me about how they're much better.
I think for me my biggest issue is that I want something that I can drive anywhere whenever I want which for me means something I can use for a road trip down to NorCal or eastern Washington or maybe even a trip to family in the southwest and not have to plan my charging stops so that they coordinate with meals so that the trip is efficient. I'm not going to stop and try to kill 30 minutes doing nothing while my car "fills up". I want to hop off the highway, gas up and get back on the road. If I could get 300-400 miles on a charge that took 5 minutes roughly at almost any off ramp that might be enough to make me seriously consider one. I realize that's a big ask - but I always try to look at things keeping my great grandmother in mind...she was born before cars and lived to see the Space Shuttle. Since I started with the Space Shuttle that means some pretty amazing things that are beyond my imagination should be possible.
I actually played with the idea of getting a LEAF for my day to day work because the local dealer had some crazy deals about 2 months ago - a decently optioned LEAF on a 2 year lease was roughly $100/mo (on of the neighbors did this). Granted, it wouldn't be fun to drive like the GS, and the build quality isn't up to a Lexus AND we have extremely cheap hydro power here in the PNW - I just don't want to deal with having yet another car so that I can have a practical one for my day to day and a fun one for other times, and I don't want to rent one when I want to do something like a trip.
So I'm just curious and no judgement, we all have our thoughts and concerns, if the GS came back as a very fun to drive BEV, what would have to change about BEVs to make you consider it?
I say this leaving the other issues around BEVs such as politics and the environment out of it. That's something for another forum somewhere.... I also don't have enough experience with them to say there's no way to make them fun/great to drive so maybe my initial premise is flawed? I don't think it is - but I'm also one who still hates turbos no matter what you tell me about how they're much better.
I think for me my biggest issue is that I want something that I can drive anywhere whenever I want which for me means something I can use for a road trip down to NorCal or eastern Washington or maybe even a trip to family in the southwest and not have to plan my charging stops so that they coordinate with meals so that the trip is efficient. I'm not going to stop and try to kill 30 minutes doing nothing while my car "fills up". I want to hop off the highway, gas up and get back on the road. If I could get 300-400 miles on a charge that took 5 minutes roughly at almost any off ramp that might be enough to make me seriously consider one. I realize that's a big ask - but I always try to look at things keeping my great grandmother in mind...she was born before cars and lived to see the Space Shuttle. Since I started with the Space Shuttle that means some pretty amazing things that are beyond my imagination should be possible.
I actually played with the idea of getting a LEAF for my day to day work because the local dealer had some crazy deals about 2 months ago - a decently optioned LEAF on a 2 year lease was roughly $100/mo (on of the neighbors did this). Granted, it wouldn't be fun to drive like the GS, and the build quality isn't up to a Lexus AND we have extremely cheap hydro power here in the PNW - I just don't want to deal with having yet another car so that I can have a practical one for my day to day and a fun one for other times, and I don't want to rent one when I want to do something like a trip.
The following 2 users liked this post by LexusGSboy:
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01-19-21, 01:56 PM
#791
We don't know if 5GS will be based off the Mazda RWD platform, rumor is it will be something smaller like a IS that shares that platform/engine.
Nobody wants a BEV GS replacement, it won't be a real GS, there are too many compromises with pure electrics, the hybrid didn't sell.
Nobody wants a BEV GS replacement, it won't be a real GS, there are too many compromises with pure electrics, the hybrid didn't sell.
Meanwhile the 3.5IS would receive a major facelift and later totally replaced by an e-TNGA BEV!
e-TNGA will be available in RWD and AWD.
The Toyota Crown sedan was the very first Toyota model to be imported to the USA between 1957 and 1971.
Back in 1990, as many as 220,000 Toyota Crowns were sold in Japan.
Today, the latest Toyota Crown sold 50k on debut in 2018.
In 2019, that figure dropped to 36k.
In COVID-19 2020, that figure dropped to 18k.
This drop isn't necessarily due to sedans being inferior to high riding CUV/SUV tall wagons - it could also be due to the product itself like styling, packaging and handling/ride balance etc - just like the poor selling Lexus 5LS.
However, as it is, sales are low, hence TMC likes to rebadge many of their models in the interim - while electrification is taking place.
BEV sales are booming presently.
Electrification is the future, and most of TMC's resources are presently poured into electrification.
Eg, the Tesla Model 3 sold 167,500 units across a COVID-19 USA in 2020 last year - leaving traditional ICEV sales behind for dead.
Whatever issues BEV's have, it sure isn't holding BEV sales back.
Global sales of electric cars accelerate fast in 2020 despite pandemic | Environment | The Guardian
Back in the 1990's, a number of people didn't like the introduction of digital cameras, and likewise today, a number of people don't like BEV's [totally understandable], but unfortunately the way sales are going, we can all understand why President Akio is heading TMC's Electric Division...
Last edited by peteharvey; 01-22-21 at 01:45 PM.
01-19-21, 02:05 PM
#792
Lexus Champion
The point about folks in apartments is interesting - you would likely need something at every parking space but I'm sure something could be figured out.
So I'm just curious and no judgement, we all have our thoughts and concerns, if the GS came back as a very fun to drive BEV, what would have to change about BEVs to make you consider it?
I say this leaving the other issues around BEVs such as politics and the environment out of it. That's something for another forum somewhere.... I also don't have enough experience with them to say there's no way to make them fun/great to drive so maybe my initial premise is flawed? I don't think it is - but I'm also one who still hates turbos no matter what you tell me about how they're much better.
I think for me my biggest issue is that I want something that I can drive anywhere whenever I want which for me means something I can use for a road trip down to NorCal or eastern Washington or maybe even a trip to family in the southwest and not have to plan my charging stops so that they coordinate with meals so that the trip is efficient. I'm not going to stop and try to kill 30 minutes doing nothing while my car "fills up". I want to hop off the highway, gas up and get back on the road. If I could get 300-400 miles on a charge that took 5 minutes roughly at almost any off ramp that might be enough to make me seriously consider one. I realize that's a big ask - but I always try to look at things keeping my great grandmother in mind...she was born before cars and lived to see the Space Shuttle. Since I started with the Space Shuttle that means some pretty amazing things that are beyond my imagination should be possible.
I actually played with the idea of getting a LEAF for my day to day work because the local dealer had some crazy deals about 2 months ago - a decently optioned LEAF on a 2 year lease was roughly $100/mo (on of the neighbors did this). Granted, it wouldn't be fun to drive like the GS, and the build quality isn't up to a Lexus AND we have extremely cheap hydro power here in the PNW - I just don't want to deal with having yet another car so that I can have a practical one for my day to day and a fun one for other times, and I don't want to rent one when I want to do something like a trip.
So I'm just curious and no judgement, we all have our thoughts and concerns, if the GS came back as a very fun to drive BEV, what would have to change about BEVs to make you consider it?
I say this leaving the other issues around BEVs such as politics and the environment out of it. That's something for another forum somewhere.... I also don't have enough experience with them to say there's no way to make them fun/great to drive so maybe my initial premise is flawed? I don't think it is - but I'm also one who still hates turbos no matter what you tell me about how they're much better.
I think for me my biggest issue is that I want something that I can drive anywhere whenever I want which for me means something I can use for a road trip down to NorCal or eastern Washington or maybe even a trip to family in the southwest and not have to plan my charging stops so that they coordinate with meals so that the trip is efficient. I'm not going to stop and try to kill 30 minutes doing nothing while my car "fills up". I want to hop off the highway, gas up and get back on the road. If I could get 300-400 miles on a charge that took 5 minutes roughly at almost any off ramp that might be enough to make me seriously consider one. I realize that's a big ask - but I always try to look at things keeping my great grandmother in mind...she was born before cars and lived to see the Space Shuttle. Since I started with the Space Shuttle that means some pretty amazing things that are beyond my imagination should be possible.
I actually played with the idea of getting a LEAF for my day to day work because the local dealer had some crazy deals about 2 months ago - a decently optioned LEAF on a 2 year lease was roughly $100/mo (on of the neighbors did this). Granted, it wouldn't be fun to drive like the GS, and the build quality isn't up to a Lexus AND we have extremely cheap hydro power here in the PNW - I just don't want to deal with having yet another car so that I can have a practical one for my day to day and a fun one for other times, and I don't want to rent one when I want to do something like a trip.
I also think many employers are adding them and will continue to add them so people could recharge at work.
Now, would I buy one? A year ago I would have said no, but now I would possibly consider it. We seldom use the GS for road trips anyway, as we usually take the Highlander (more family room) or the truck (hauling bikes or whatever) so we would just drive one of those on a longer drive. At the rate I drive my GS, if it had a 300 mile range on a full charge, I'd likely only need to charge it once a month. When things go back to normal, I'd probably be charging 2 or 3 times a month, so I don't see that as a big deal. I'd just have a charger installed in my garage.
So for me to buy an electric GS, I would consider it if it had 300 miles of range and that great electric torque, with the great balance between sport and luxury that I feel when I drive my current GS. High quality interior and materials, comfortable, and at a reasonable price, and I would likely be sold.
01-19-21, 03:02 PM
#793
Lead Lap
The point about folks in apartments is interesting - you would likely need something at every parking space but I'm sure something could be figured out.
So I'm just curious and no judgement, we all have our thoughts and concerns, if the GS came back as a very fun to drive BEV, what would have to change about BEVs to make you consider it?
I say this leaving the other issues around BEVs such as politics and the environment out of it. That's something for another forum somewhere.... I also don't have enough experience with them to say there's no way to make them fun/great to drive so maybe my initial premise is flawed? I don't think it is - but I'm also one who still hates turbos no matter what you tell me about how they're much better.
I think for me my biggest issue is that I want something that I can drive anywhere whenever I want which for me means something I can use for a road trip down to NorCal or eastern Washington or maybe even a trip to family in the southwest and not have to plan my charging stops so that they coordinate with meals so that the trip is efficient. I'm not going to stop and try to kill 30 minutes doing nothing while my car "fills up". I want to hop off the highway, gas up and get back on the road. If I could get 300-400 miles on a charge that took 5 minutes roughly at almost any off ramp that might be enough to make me seriously consider one. I realize that's a big ask - but I always try to look at things keeping my great grandmother in mind...she was born before cars and lived to see the Space Shuttle. Since I started with the Space Shuttle that means some pretty amazing things that are beyond my imagination should be possible.
I actually played with the idea of getting a LEAF for my day to day work because the local dealer had some crazy deals about 2 months ago - a decently optioned LEAF on a 2 year lease was roughly $100/mo (on of the neighbors did this). Granted, it wouldn't be fun to drive like the GS, and the build quality isn't up to a Lexus AND we have extremely cheap hydro power here in the PNW - I just don't want to deal with having yet another car so that I can have a practical one for my day to day and a fun one for other times, and I don't want to rent one when I want to do something like a trip.
So I'm just curious and no judgement, we all have our thoughts and concerns, if the GS came back as a very fun to drive BEV, what would have to change about BEVs to make you consider it?
I say this leaving the other issues around BEVs such as politics and the environment out of it. That's something for another forum somewhere.... I also don't have enough experience with them to say there's no way to make them fun/great to drive so maybe my initial premise is flawed? I don't think it is - but I'm also one who still hates turbos no matter what you tell me about how they're much better.
I think for me my biggest issue is that I want something that I can drive anywhere whenever I want which for me means something I can use for a road trip down to NorCal or eastern Washington or maybe even a trip to family in the southwest and not have to plan my charging stops so that they coordinate with meals so that the trip is efficient. I'm not going to stop and try to kill 30 minutes doing nothing while my car "fills up". I want to hop off the highway, gas up and get back on the road. If I could get 300-400 miles on a charge that took 5 minutes roughly at almost any off ramp that might be enough to make me seriously consider one. I realize that's a big ask - but I always try to look at things keeping my great grandmother in mind...she was born before cars and lived to see the Space Shuttle. Since I started with the Space Shuttle that means some pretty amazing things that are beyond my imagination should be possible.
I actually played with the idea of getting a LEAF for my day to day work because the local dealer had some crazy deals about 2 months ago - a decently optioned LEAF on a 2 year lease was roughly $100/mo (on of the neighbors did this). Granted, it wouldn't be fun to drive like the GS, and the build quality isn't up to a Lexus AND we have extremely cheap hydro power here in the PNW - I just don't want to deal with having yet another car so that I can have a practical one for my day to day and a fun one for other times, and I don't want to rent one when I want to do something like a trip.
The number of Toyota hybrids that are Uber/Lyft drivers has steadily increased since those services become more popular than yellow cabs. If these drivers could get the same mileage out of a single charge as they would with a single fill-up of gas, and they got some kind of deal/incentive on their vehicle, I don't see why they wouldn't consider it (https://news.yahoo.com/tesla-model-3...152427723.html)
Personally, I've always envisioned having a nice luxury AWD sedan from Lexus (GS, LS) and maybe a Range Rover Sport or a Lexus GX460 SUV. If the GS (or LS) was only offered as an electric car, i'd consider it but only if it wasn't more expensive up front, easy/quick to charge, didn't require extra attention (installing chargers in my house, figuring out where to charge if i take it on a longer drive) and performed the way I envisioned -- a GS as a sportier sedan, an LS as a more luxury cruiser.
I think the adoption of electric is happening, but its not encouraging to enthusiasts because comparing to Model 3/Model S interior, handling and design (although subjective) doesn't appeal to everyone in every market and every segment. That's why seeing the offerings from Audi (eTron), Porsche (Taycan) and Jaguar (i-Pace) were refreshing because they combined the design, technology and prowess of those badges along with the electrification albeit at a premium price.
If Lexus took their tech and pushed the envelope a little with the user-centric tech, making a reliable, AWD electric 5GS was offered in a few years and it was still as compelling to drive as a 4GS, i'd definitely buy one! (CPO only
)
Last edited by AJLex19; 01-19-21 at 03:13 PM.
03-27-21, 12:52 PM
#795
I wish but the sedan market is shrinking. Maybe a GS SUV/fastback???? If the rumors out there for the Crown are true, it may hold true for the GS.