Dynamic Rear Steering—great 1st impression
12-26-18, 08:07 AM
#1
Rookie
Thread Starter
Dynamic Rear Steering—great 1st impression
Candidly, I thought that DRS was a gimmick and didn’t know I had it until I checked my VIN.
Last car I had with rear steer was an ‘80s Prelude w/4ws. Gimmick on FWD.
My younger brother and I hit the TN backroads as it’s cloudy but dry.
Assessment:
1. The DRS does rotate the car easily under full power in Sport Plus+—far better than an open diff rear could otherwise perform (multiple tight L/R/L turns with rotation—power down).
2. Wish the heavier weighted steering in Sport+ was the same in Sport.
3. My brother and I are not Pobst, and don’t pretend to be.
4. This is my first GS 350 F Sport—thus I can’t compare it to any other GS.
5. My brother and I consider E39 and E60 platforms good handling big cars.
Conclusions:
1. DRS seems to help rotation/traction through a tighter backroad curve. It honestly felt like the car swings the rear slightly and powers out.
2. Feels like an E39 540i, but down on power from an E39 M5.
3. E39 is the best handling sedan I’ve ever owned. Considering the age of the E39, they nailed sedan handling.
4. ‘Subjectively” an F Sport in Sport+, handled similar.
5. Again: Heavier weighted steering option—not just Sport+.
Last car I had with rear steer was an ‘80s Prelude w/4ws. Gimmick on FWD.
My younger brother and I hit the TN backroads as it’s cloudy but dry.
Assessment:
1. The DRS does rotate the car easily under full power in Sport Plus+—far better than an open diff rear could otherwise perform (multiple tight L/R/L turns with rotation—power down).
2. Wish the heavier weighted steering in Sport+ was the same in Sport.
3. My brother and I are not Pobst, and don’t pretend to be.
4. This is my first GS 350 F Sport—thus I can’t compare it to any other GS.
5. My brother and I consider E39 and E60 platforms good handling big cars.
Conclusions:
1. DRS seems to help rotation/traction through a tighter backroad curve. It honestly felt like the car swings the rear slightly and powers out.
2. Feels like an E39 540i, but down on power from an E39 M5.
3. E39 is the best handling sedan I’ve ever owned. Considering the age of the E39, they nailed sedan handling.
4. ‘Subjectively” an F Sport in Sport+, handled similar.
5. Again: Heavier weighted steering option—not just Sport+.
Last edited by KAH; 12-27-18 at 05:46 AM. Reason: Not finished
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12-26-18, 05:35 PM
#2
Intermediate
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Im2bz2p345 (12-29-18)
12-26-18, 06:14 PM
#3
Lexus Test Driver
12-26-18, 06:45 PM
#4
Intermediate
I know, you have said that many times in this forum and also posted videos from Lexus saying the same but that difference in steering feel is imperceptible to me. I perceive the change in throttle response and transmission shift points when going from Eco/Normal to Sport mode but I feel absolutely no difference in steering feel. I have tried to feel very closely many times in different situations (low speed, high speed) but could not. Do you feel any difference?
12-26-18, 06:47 PM
#5
Lexus Test Driver
I know, you have said that many times in this forum and also posted videos from Lexus saying the same but that difference in steering feel is imperceptible to me. I perceive the change in throttle response and transmission shift points when going from Eco/Normal to Sport mode but I feel absolutely no difference in steering feel. I have tried to feel very closely many times in different situations (low speed, high speed) but could not. Do you feel any difference?
12-26-18, 07:51 PM
#6
Intermediate
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Im2bz2p345 (12-29-18)
12-26-18, 08:28 PM
#7
I have a GS350 Luxury, which includes Sport +, I go between Normal, Sport (Throttle increase only) and Sport + (throttle, suspension Stiffens and Heavier steering).
There is noticeable difference in steering when going into sport +, perhaps not day and night, but rather noticeable. As I recall, speed, also plays with the ratio as well.
There is noticeable difference in steering when going into sport +, perhaps not day and night, but rather noticeable. As I recall, speed, also plays with the ratio as well.
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Im2bz2p345 (12-29-18)
Trending Topics
12-26-18, 09:51 PM
#8
WRT this particular topic there doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus. From one POV theres always been the "non FSPORT / Lux does not have VGRS" argument, but that's probably false.
There's also a bunch of debate here and elsewhere about whether or not VGRS engages in sport and then more aggressive in Sport +, etc. As an F-sport owner I really only find its engaged in Sport +, but the
car is so stable anyways that I think without a lot of testing its hard to tell anyways. My driving is boring so its hard to tell, on a given week I don't take a lot of curves at speed, other than highway offramps etc.
There's also controversy as to whether or not the adaptive suspension changes in modes other than Sport +.... at least on my Fsport, I don't really notice a huge change until Sport +....
-Mike
There's also a bunch of debate here and elsewhere about whether or not VGRS engages in sport and then more aggressive in Sport +, etc. As an F-sport owner I really only find its engaged in Sport +, but the
car is so stable anyways that I think without a lot of testing its hard to tell anyways. My driving is boring so its hard to tell, on a given week I don't take a lot of curves at speed, other than highway offramps etc.
There's also controversy as to whether or not the adaptive suspension changes in modes other than Sport +.... at least on my Fsport, I don't really notice a huge change until Sport +....
-Mike
12-27-18, 05:41 AM
#9
Rookie
Thread Starter
Per the Lexus brochure for 2015:
1. F Sport has Sport+ and VGRS (variable steering as standard—RWD only).
2. Luxury and other GS has Sport+, but no VGRS.
3. Owners manual clearly states on F-Sport, suspension only stiffens in Sport+.
4. Something other than VGRS must stiffen the steering in Sport+, as Sport+ is available in F Sport & Luxury—but VGRS is unique to F—RWD only.
I have an 2015 F-Sport and can’t speak to the other models. My steering ONLY gets heavier in Sport+. Sport+ is where suspension stiffens, shift points hold longer, and VGRS stiffens the steering.
Sport mode in my F-Sport doesn’t stiffen suspension or alter the steering—just holds the shift points. That’s a fact. That’s what I feel, and and straight from my owners manual.
Easiest thing to do is check your VIN against Lexus.com and it will tell you all the features of your car.
Attached from Car & Driver, article describing VGRS and models with it in 2013 model year. https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ering-feature/
1. F Sport has Sport+ and VGRS (variable steering as standard—RWD only).
2. Luxury and other GS has Sport+, but no VGRS.
3. Owners manual clearly states on F-Sport, suspension only stiffens in Sport+.
4. Something other than VGRS must stiffen the steering in Sport+, as Sport+ is available in F Sport & Luxury—but VGRS is unique to F—RWD only.
I have an 2015 F-Sport and can’t speak to the other models. My steering ONLY gets heavier in Sport+. Sport+ is where suspension stiffens, shift points hold longer, and VGRS stiffens the steering.
Sport mode in my F-Sport doesn’t stiffen suspension or alter the steering—just holds the shift points. That’s a fact. That’s what I feel, and and straight from my owners manual.
Easiest thing to do is check your VIN against Lexus.com and it will tell you all the features of your car.
Attached from Car & Driver, article describing VGRS and models with it in 2013 model year. https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ering-feature/
Last edited by KAH; 12-27-18 at 06:08 AM. Reason: Add link
12-27-18, 06:07 AM
#10
Instructor
sir go on race track with mario andretti tell him you have dynamic steer
12-27-18, 06:12 AM
#11
Rookie
Thread Starter
12-27-18, 06:59 AM
#12
Lexus Test Driver
Per the Lexus brochure for 2015:
1. F Sport has Sport+ and VGRS (variable steering as standard—RWD only).
2. Luxury and other GS has Sport+, but no VGRS.
3. Owners manual clearly states on F-Sport, suspension only stiffens in Sport+.
4. Something other than VGRS must stiffen the steering in Sport+, as Sport+ is available in F Sport & Luxury—but VGRS is unique to F—RWD only.
I have an 2015 F-Sport and can’t speak to the other models. My steering ONLY gets heavier in Sport+. Sport+ is where suspension stiffens, shift points hold longer, and VGRS stiffens the steering.
Sport mode in my F-Sport doesn’t stiffen suspension or alter the steering—just holds the shift points. That’s a fact. That’s what I feel, and and straight from my owners manual.
Easiest thing to do is check your VIN against Lexus.com and it will tell you all the features of your car.
Attached from Car & Driver, article describing VGRS and models with it in 2013 model year. https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ering-feature/
1. F Sport has Sport+ and VGRS (variable steering as standard—RWD only).
2. Luxury and other GS has Sport+, but no VGRS.
3. Owners manual clearly states on F-Sport, suspension only stiffens in Sport+.
4. Something other than VGRS must stiffen the steering in Sport+, as Sport+ is available in F Sport & Luxury—but VGRS is unique to F—RWD only.
I have an 2015 F-Sport and can’t speak to the other models. My steering ONLY gets heavier in Sport+. Sport+ is where suspension stiffens, shift points hold longer, and VGRS stiffens the steering.
Sport mode in my F-Sport doesn’t stiffen suspension or alter the steering—just holds the shift points. That’s a fact. That’s what I feel, and and straight from my owners manual.
Easiest thing to do is check your VIN against Lexus.com and it will tell you all the features of your car.
Attached from Car & Driver, article describing VGRS and models with it in 2013 model year. https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ering-feature/
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12-27-18, 07:19 AM
#13
Rookie
Thread Starter
Just FYI it is not the VGRS that makes the steering feel heavier, it's the Electric Power Steering that does this. It's all controlled electronically based on drive mode. That's why the Lux S+ and AWD F-Sports also have heavier steering in their Sport+ modes, not because of VGRS.
I imagined that VGRS and heavier steering (Sport+) were different based on the posts.
Since VGRS is speed sensitive, I imagine no one would notice the ratios tighten as it is subtle. My wife’s car has a version of it and it’s invisible. Same on mine.
Karl
12-27-18, 07:24 AM
#14
Lexus Test Driver
‘Thank you sir/ma’am,
I imagined that VGRS and heavier steering (Sport+) were different based on the posts.
Since VGRS is speed sensitive, I imagine no one would notice the ratios tighten as it is subtle. My wife’s car has a version of it and it’s invisible. Same on mine.
Karl
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KAH (12-27-18)
12-27-18, 12:40 PM
#15
Racer
I don't think the manual is incorrect, I just don't think it's telling the full story as my '18 GS seems to operate slightly differently. These are my observations based off my '18 GS only (disclaimer: I'm specifying which GS as we have a '15 GS and from my seat of the pants feel, the 2015 operates exactly as described in the manual).
AVS (Adaptive Variable Suspension)
- Very subtle but noticeable change from Eco to Normal. Eco is a touch softer over manhole covers, bumps, etc. but gives the ride a touch more of a floaty/busy feeling. Normal is just a hair firmer, but the ride feels like it stays level more often (less floating/bouncing around) so at times, Normal feels less busy and smoother than Eco. On roads that aren't so bad, Eco definitely gives off more of a faux-comfort mode vibe.
- Sport S mode is very noticeably firmer than Normal. Road imperfections start to reveal themselves whereas in Normal mode you might not have noticed they were there. More road feel and feedback, without a doubt.
- Sport S+ mode is drastically firmer, bordering on harsh. I don't use Sport S+ too often for this reason, but when I am in the mood, boy it sure is fun.
VGRS (Variable Gear Ratio Steering)
- In Eco mode, it's still active while on the move and at speed and is very similar in operation to Normal mode.
- In Eco mode at low speeds, such as parking lot situations, the steering ratio seems to be in it's slowest setting which makes the car feel much larger and less nimble/willing to maneuver.
- Normal mode feels much more lively in low speed situations and makes the car feel smaller & easier to drive and maneuver through tight situations.
- Sport S mode seems to make more use of VGRS at all times. I notice this while parking in my parking spot at home as I have to make a 180 degree turn into my parking spot. In Normal and Eco, to make the turn, it requires full lock. In Sport S (and S+), I don't need to use full lock to make the turn and have a little bit more steering angle available if I were to need it.
- In Sport S+ mode, I don't really notice a difference a low speeds compared to Sport S, but it does seem to be its sharpest in Sport S+ while on the move.
Misc. Notes/Observations
-As far as EPS goes, I've driven many loaner Lexus models and they did in fact have very noticeable differences between Eco, Normal & Sport. Eco brings pinky-levels of effort required to steer. Sport makes it noticeably heftier. In my '18 GS, I really don't notice a difference in steering weight between Eco, Normal & Sport S but it does get very heavy in Sport S+. What I do notice, however, is the level of feel & feedback seems to change. Eco and Normal feel more numb and don't transmit much road feedback. Sport S and S+ give much more feedback in the steering wheel.
-Brake pedal feel changes under a variety of circumstances (it's SoCal so I wear flip flops regularly and drive barefoot when I do so these are quite apparent changes in feel). Eco mode softens the pedal, gives it more squish and requires more pedal travel to stop the car. Sport S+ noticeably makes the pedal quite stiff and firm and requires very little travel to stop. In Eco, the pedal reminds me a lot of my best friend's dad's 745Li he had at the time. Not quite as soft and effortless as it was in the 745Li when in Eco, but close. It's firm in Normal mode, but in Sport S+, I'd say it's stiff.
-In addition, the pedal overall seems as though it adapts to the driving situation and I believe it does so via the DRCC radar. (My last Infiniti had a similar feature so I was already familiar with this and noticed the same behavior in the GS). What I mean by this is that if I'm traveling behind another vehicle and we need to come to a full stop, it seems as though the car is already monitoring the closing speed (I mean, it is. PCS is always watching
) and knows what braking force is required so when I press the pedal, I can just give it a slight press and maintain that pressure and the car stops at the proper rate. If there is no car in front of me (aka the car does not know what the required braking force will be) and I need to stop, I can't do the same 'slight press & maintain' technique and have to continue increasing pressure as I further and further depress the pedal to get the same stopping action. Lastly, if there is a car in front of me that slows suddenly, even though my reaction was not delayed enough to trigger PCS, the brake pedal pressure seems like it's already primed and ready to drop the anchors the second my foot touches the pedal (again, this is what the system would do if PCS did go off anyway so it makes sense).
-I can without a doubt say the above braking notes do not apply whatsoever to our 2015. Pedal feel is constant in all modes and at all times. It does not have DRCC so I don't know if these are differences related to DRCC or pre-refresh vs refresh related.
Fun Fact
-Regardless of what drive mode you are in, if PCS (Pre-Collision System) thinks you're going to crash, the instant the warning goes off, everything is switched to it's quickest and most aggressive setting so you have the maximum amount of response and control available to hopefully avoid the collision. I think this is so freaking cool
AVS (Adaptive Variable Suspension)
- Very subtle but noticeable change from Eco to Normal. Eco is a touch softer over manhole covers, bumps, etc. but gives the ride a touch more of a floaty/busy feeling. Normal is just a hair firmer, but the ride feels like it stays level more often (less floating/bouncing around) so at times, Normal feels less busy and smoother than Eco. On roads that aren't so bad, Eco definitely gives off more of a faux-comfort mode vibe.
- Sport S mode is very noticeably firmer than Normal. Road imperfections start to reveal themselves whereas in Normal mode you might not have noticed they were there. More road feel and feedback, without a doubt.
- Sport S+ mode is drastically firmer, bordering on harsh. I don't use Sport S+ too often for this reason, but when I am in the mood, boy it sure is fun.
VGRS (Variable Gear Ratio Steering)
- In Eco mode, it's still active while on the move and at speed and is very similar in operation to Normal mode.
- In Eco mode at low speeds, such as parking lot situations, the steering ratio seems to be in it's slowest setting which makes the car feel much larger and less nimble/willing to maneuver.
- Normal mode feels much more lively in low speed situations and makes the car feel smaller & easier to drive and maneuver through tight situations.
- Sport S mode seems to make more use of VGRS at all times. I notice this while parking in my parking spot at home as I have to make a 180 degree turn into my parking spot. In Normal and Eco, to make the turn, it requires full lock. In Sport S (and S+), I don't need to use full lock to make the turn and have a little bit more steering angle available if I were to need it.
- In Sport S+ mode, I don't really notice a difference a low speeds compared to Sport S, but it does seem to be its sharpest in Sport S+ while on the move.
Misc. Notes/Observations
-As far as EPS goes, I've driven many loaner Lexus models and they did in fact have very noticeable differences between Eco, Normal & Sport. Eco brings pinky-levels of effort required to steer. Sport makes it noticeably heftier. In my '18 GS, I really don't notice a difference in steering weight between Eco, Normal & Sport S but it does get very heavy in Sport S+. What I do notice, however, is the level of feel & feedback seems to change. Eco and Normal feel more numb and don't transmit much road feedback. Sport S and S+ give much more feedback in the steering wheel.
-Brake pedal feel changes under a variety of circumstances (it's SoCal so I wear flip flops regularly and drive barefoot when I do so these are quite apparent changes in feel). Eco mode softens the pedal, gives it more squish and requires more pedal travel to stop the car. Sport S+ noticeably makes the pedal quite stiff and firm and requires very little travel to stop. In Eco, the pedal reminds me a lot of my best friend's dad's 745Li he had at the time. Not quite as soft and effortless as it was in the 745Li when in Eco, but close. It's firm in Normal mode, but in Sport S+, I'd say it's stiff.
-In addition, the pedal overall seems as though it adapts to the driving situation and I believe it does so via the DRCC radar. (My last Infiniti had a similar feature so I was already familiar with this and noticed the same behavior in the GS). What I mean by this is that if I'm traveling behind another vehicle and we need to come to a full stop, it seems as though the car is already monitoring the closing speed (I mean, it is. PCS is always watching
) and knows what braking force is required so when I press the pedal, I can just give it a slight press and maintain that pressure and the car stops at the proper rate. If there is no car in front of me (aka the car does not know what the required braking force will be) and I need to stop, I can't do the same 'slight press & maintain' technique and have to continue increasing pressure as I further and further depress the pedal to get the same stopping action. Lastly, if there is a car in front of me that slows suddenly, even though my reaction was not delayed enough to trigger PCS, the brake pedal pressure seems like it's already primed and ready to drop the anchors the second my foot touches the pedal (again, this is what the system would do if PCS did go off anyway so it makes sense).-I can without a doubt say the above braking notes do not apply whatsoever to our 2015. Pedal feel is constant in all modes and at all times. It does not have DRCC so I don't know if these are differences related to DRCC or pre-refresh vs refresh related.
Fun Fact
-Regardless of what drive mode you are in, if PCS (Pre-Collision System) thinks you're going to crash, the instant the warning goes off, everything is switched to it's quickest and most aggressive setting so you have the maximum amount of response and control available to hopefully avoid the collision. I think this is so freaking cool
Last edited by signdetres; 12-27-18 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Clarity
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