GS Not Dead
03-30-20, 04:41 PM
#61
Lexus Test Driver
03-30-20, 05:57 PM
#63
Lexus Test Driver
03-30-20, 06:07 PM
#64
There are 3 principles to keep in mind:
1) A manufacturer has the right to produce more than one midsize luxury sedan.
2) When a manufacturer produces two different models of luxury sedans in the luxury midsize segment, it is pertinent for one model to be luxury, while the other model is sporty.
3)
a) Lexus' midsize luxury is the ES with the engine and transmission in front of the front axle, while the midsize sports is the GS.
b) Mercedes midsize luxury is the E Class, while the midsize sports is the CLS 4 Door Gran Coupe.
c) BMW's midsize luxury is the 5 Series, while their midsize sports is the 6 Series 4 Door Gran Coupe.
d) Audis midsize luxury is the A6 with the engine in front of the front axle, but the transmission is behind the front axle - while Audi's midsize sports is the A7 Sportsback.
4) We should compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges.
Hence Lexus' midsize sports GS should not be compared with German midsize luxury, but Lexus' midsize sports GS should be compared with German midsize sports models in the CLS [which only has 4 seat belts], 2012-18 6 Series and Audi A7 Sportsback.
That is something to think about.
For example, some people will say that we can NOT compare the ES sedan with FWD & cheap single lower suspension arms to the German sedans, because all the German sedans all use premium front double wishbone suspension - but then how dare the same people compare an Lexus RX tall wagen with FWD & cheap front single lower link MacPherson strut suspension to the German tall wagons which all have front double wishbone suspension?
In other words, it is okay to compare RX to the German tall wagens, but it is NOT okay to compare the ES to the German sedans?
There is absolutely NO way we can force Lexus to make ES RWD with front double wishbone suspension.
There is also absolutely no way we can force Audi to make their cars with their engines mounted behind the front axle!
There will always be differences in specifications between the models....
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 03-30-20 at 06:16 PM.
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signdetres (03-30-20)
03-31-20, 08:40 AM
#66
before the current mess look at sales of A6, E class and BMW 5's in China and you see there has been robust demand for German steel.
Lexus has been doing better but lags far behind in that market.
US market for sport sedans are not the primary market as it was in the past. I am a rare one to have bought a 2020, and bought a 59kMSRP model for 49k. So my base of comparison was: "What can I get for under 50k"?
Not any of the above premium brands, for that money Im looking at A4, C class and 3 series. All with 4cyl turbo. Do I get LED headlight? Premium Audio? and other amenities at 50k? I was fatigued by long term ownership out of warranty for premium german brands.
Previously the GS was the Brand Flagship PERFORMANCE SEDAN. That market is shrinking domsetically as discussed, and Chinese consumer is not exactly thrilled to buy Japanese products for obvious reasons. The next IS will be longer and perhaps more styling daring.
Since the LS is not selling well and the ES now selling well its logical for LExus to not continue the GS. Honda and Infiniti broke years ago from having a true flagship uber sedan for obvious reasons. Genesis has filled in but I really don't know if they are successful. The "GS competition" as depicted is not attractive to me.
Obviously price was a huge consideration and no doubt the current GS at MSRP is not a great value. If I was leasing I'd for sure look German. Reliabity issues under warranty not the same concern.
I was looking to buy a 2 year old GS until i was seduced by the price of the 2020.
Lexus has been doing better but lags far behind in that market.
US market for sport sedans are not the primary market as it was in the past. I am a rare one to have bought a 2020, and bought a 59kMSRP model for 49k. So my base of comparison was: "What can I get for under 50k"?
Not any of the above premium brands, for that money Im looking at A4, C class and 3 series. All with 4cyl turbo. Do I get LED headlight? Premium Audio? and other amenities at 50k? I was fatigued by long term ownership out of warranty for premium german brands.
Previously the GS was the Brand Flagship PERFORMANCE SEDAN. That market is shrinking domsetically as discussed, and Chinese consumer is not exactly thrilled to buy Japanese products for obvious reasons. The next IS will be longer and perhaps more styling daring.
Since the LS is not selling well and the ES now selling well its logical for LExus to not continue the GS. Honda and Infiniti broke years ago from having a true flagship uber sedan for obvious reasons. Genesis has filled in but I really don't know if they are successful. The "GS competition" as depicted is not attractive to me.
Obviously price was a huge consideration and no doubt the current GS at MSRP is not a great value. If I was leasing I'd for sure look German. Reliabity issues under warranty not the same concern.
I was looking to buy a 2 year old GS until i was seduced by the price of the 2020.
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natnut (04-04-20)
03-31-20, 08:46 AM
#67
Lead Lap
Eff. If GS sales were bad prior to this virus stuff, it's dead now.
03-31-20, 11:08 AM
#68
Unfortunately there just aren’t enough motorsports enthusiasts who favor the GS anymore. Lexus really pushed the F-sport & F moniker for a while, but they never developed the sub-brand into what AMG, M and Audi S/RS have been made into. Even though many of us GS enthusiasts will argue all day how much difference there is between the GS and ES, the average consumer isn’t all that interested in seeing those differences nor do they care enough to spend the money for the differences. Even If Lexus made the next GS a sexy low and wide liftback designed 4 door sports coupe and charged $65k for it I’m not sure that would be quite enough to make it sell in huge numbers.
The ES is a fantastic car for the majority of car shoppers. Maybe Lexus has analyzed how many Lexus enthusiasts there are within their potential customer base and they realized that its just not worth their while to spend money creating a new GS. They are happy moving 50,000 ES units a year.
My only hope is that Lexus follows in the foot steps of Acura and just merge the IS and GS into one sedan model and basically create a IS with short overhangs, but a longer wheelbase, but still several inches shorter then the ES. So it would become a tweener vehicle much like the TLX, Infiniti Q50, Cadillac CT5 have become. That could hypothetically appeal to costumers from the IS and GS camp.
They could offer a base turbo 4 cylinder and a bi-turbo V6 in two states of tune 350hp and 400hp. Price it starting at about the same price as the current IS and have it run up to about $60k in full F-Sport AWD guise.
The ES is a fantastic car for the majority of car shoppers. Maybe Lexus has analyzed how many Lexus enthusiasts there are within their potential customer base and they realized that its just not worth their while to spend money creating a new GS. They are happy moving 50,000 ES units a year.
My only hope is that Lexus follows in the foot steps of Acura and just merge the IS and GS into one sedan model and basically create a IS with short overhangs, but a longer wheelbase, but still several inches shorter then the ES. So it would become a tweener vehicle much like the TLX, Infiniti Q50, Cadillac CT5 have become. That could hypothetically appeal to costumers from the IS and GS camp.
They could offer a base turbo 4 cylinder and a bi-turbo V6 in two states of tune 350hp and 400hp. Price it starting at about the same price as the current IS and have it run up to about $60k in full F-Sport AWD guise.
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kalin02 (04-04-20)
03-31-20, 12:13 PM
#69
Pole Position
charley95 - Would you trade your mint condition Yugo for this old Fiat X1/9? Sounds sweet! Handles even better!!!
https://youtu.be/rQlrsXr9ZmE
https://youtu.be/rQlrsXr9ZmE
03-31-20, 02:10 PM
#71
I have always loved the GS, which is why I still own 3 generations of it, but yes it is dead unfortunately. And as sad as it may seem that Genesis G80 is quite the looker but the Mercedes E class or Audi A6 just seem like way better alternatives than the GS these days. If they come out with a 5th gen with an extra 150HP. Sign me up.
03-31-20, 02:52 PM
#72
Lexus Test Driver
2) When a manufacturer produces two different models of luxury sedans in the luxury midsize segment, it is pertinent for one model to be luxury, while the other model is sporty.
3)
a) Lexus' midsize luxury is the ES with the engine and transmission in front of the front axle, while the midsize sports is the GS.
b) Mercedes midsize luxury is the E Class, while the midsize sports is the CLS 4 Door Gran Coupe.
c) BMW's midsize luxury is the 5 Series, while their midsize sports is the 6 Series 4 Door Gran Coupe.
d) Audis midsize luxury is the A6 with the engine in front of the front axle, but the transmission is behind the front axle - while Audi's midsize sports is the A7 Sportsback.
3)
a) Lexus' midsize luxury is the ES with the engine and transmission in front of the front axle, while the midsize sports is the GS.
b) Mercedes midsize luxury is the E Class, while the midsize sports is the CLS 4 Door Gran Coupe.
c) BMW's midsize luxury is the 5 Series, while their midsize sports is the 6 Series 4 Door Gran Coupe.
d) Audis midsize luxury is the A6 with the engine in front of the front axle, but the transmission is behind the front axle - while Audi's midsize sports is the A7 Sportsback.
Doesn't help that Lexus is further dismantling the GS's "sport sedan" image by selling the ES F-Sport variant. Even if the ES F-Sport doesn't drive half as well as a GS, most buyers couldn't care less when the car at least looks more aggressive. And I'd be willing to bet that ES F-Sports alone have completely outsold the GS since their introduction. It's sad, but seeing Lexus cancel the GS isn't much of a surprise when what they really want to push is the ES.
03-31-20, 06:38 PM
#73
I drove an ES as a loaner for our 2013 F Sport. It was not an ES F, but it sure wasn't a GS350 F Sport.
I couldn't wait to get my car back.
Everyone is saying, "just make it a little bit different".
I say go big or go home.
I couldn't wait to get my car back.
Everyone is saying, "just make it a little bit different".
I say go big or go home.
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natnut (04-04-20)
03-31-20, 07:11 PM
#74
It will be interesting to see if Lexus launches a harder core ES-F now that they have massaged the chassis and created TRD versions of the Avalon and Camry which are quite good cars with “oem summer rubber” I have to say.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
“Averaging 0.94 g on the skidpad is impressive, sure; compared with the actual sports sedans in last month's comparo, it's bettered only by the BMW. But the TRD's succinct ride motions and flat handling are the calling cards of expert, no-compromise tuning. The steering is sensitive and responsive without being twitchy, and it's heavy enough that the aged demographic commonly associated with the Camry won't even get off the dealer lot before they steer back toward that XSE in the showroom.”
I like the idea of harder core Lexus ES-F plus a hypothetical larger Lexus IS 400 F sport with a 400hp twin-turbo V6 mated to a 10 speed auto. Yeah, I’m sure plenty of critics would laugh at a ES-F, but it might not be a bad I idea to use some of those CAMRY TRD parts on the ES.
I think these two hypothetical models would satisfy the Lexus Sport sedan crowd to some extent. It would at least prevent some of the die hard Toyota boys from keeping their 4GS to the end of time.
04-01-20, 07:51 AM
#75
It will be interesting to see if Lexus launches a harder core ES-F now that they have massaged the chassis and created TRD versions of the Avalon and Camry which are quite good cars with “oem summer rubber” I have to say.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
“Averaging 0.94 g on the skidpad is impressive, sure; compared with the actual sports sedans in last month's comparo, it's bettered only by the BMW. But the TRD's succinct ride motions and flat handling are the calling cards of expert, no-compromise tuning. The steering is sensitive and responsive without being twitchy, and it's heavy enough that the aged demographic commonly associated with the Camry won't even get off the dealer lot before they steer back toward that XSE in the showroom.”
I like the idea of harder core Lexus ES-F plus a hypothetical larger Lexus IS 400 F sport with a 400hp twin-turbo V6 mated to a 10 speed auto. Yeah, I’m sure plenty of critics would laugh at a ES-F, but it might not be a bad I idea to use some of those CAMRY TRD parts on the ES.
I think these two hypothetical models would satisfy the Lexus Sport sedan crowd to some extent. It would at least prevent some of the die hard Toyota boys from keeping their 4GS to the end of time.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
“Averaging 0.94 g on the skidpad is impressive, sure; compared with the actual sports sedans in last month's comparo, it's bettered only by the BMW. But the TRD's succinct ride motions and flat handling are the calling cards of expert, no-compromise tuning. The steering is sensitive and responsive without being twitchy, and it's heavy enough that the aged demographic commonly associated with the Camry won't even get off the dealer lot before they steer back toward that XSE in the showroom.”
I like the idea of harder core Lexus ES-F plus a hypothetical larger Lexus IS 400 F sport with a 400hp twin-turbo V6 mated to a 10 speed auto. Yeah, I’m sure plenty of critics would laugh at a ES-F, but it might not be a bad I idea to use some of those CAMRY TRD parts on the ES.
I think these two hypothetical models would satisfy the Lexus Sport sedan crowd to some extent. It would at least prevent some of the die hard Toyota boys from keeping their 4GS to the end of time.
For those who might disagree, please name another car with Tesla's sales demand.