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So according to that Aisin pic above, they recommend replacing ATF every 2 yrs/20k km. Aisin makes the GS transmission. Lexus says don't change the fluid - in the US, unless it's had hard use. Lexus does recommend replacing the fluid regularly in places like Australia regardless of hard use. It's these kind of inconsistensies and contradictions that make one not trust Toyota/Lexus so that's one reason why I replaced the ATF in my Camry and GS. I'm also in Phoenix and the extreme heat here in the summer also worries me about degrading the ATF when some of the hottest summer days exceed 120 f.
The Camry had shifting issues that were mitigated by replacing the ATF. I did filter replacement and multiple drain and fills starting at 80k miles and after shifts were much improved. When I dropped the pan it was full of aluminum powder as well as a lot of metal on the magnets. I would not doubt the filter was full of aluminum too. The aluminum clogs the servos which was causing the shifting issues. I replaced the WS with Valvoline Maxlife. I've put almost 50k miles on it since then with no issues.
I replaced the WS in my GS with Valvoline Maxlife too after changing the filter and several drain and fills at around 27k miles and I have 90k now with no issues. It shifted fine before I replaced it and it shifts fine now.
Just my two cents on ATF changing, take it for what you will.
3 years ago I bought a '14 GS350AWD F-sport with 40K miles. I changed the WS fluid for the 1st time at 89K. the first 3x I changed the WS trans fluid with a laser temp gauge pointed at the trans pan. It worked fine. Just follow the steps everyone else uses with the 2 drain holes.
Last year i bought a bluetooth OBD sensor ($25) and I used a free app called OBD Fusion. It works perfect but you have to pay $9.99 to get trans temp reading (its a one time fee and you get almost all stats on the car...well worth it). I did it and its way better than the laser temp gauge....the temp gauge was off about 10 degrees.
Last October I bought a '10 IS250C with 112K miles and the WS fluid was never changed. I used the same OBD sensor and app (bought the $9.99 trans temp upgrade) and I've changed the fluid twice now. Trans still shifts smooth.
Over the next 3 oil changes, I'll replace the trans fluid to keep it red in color....for both cars, then I'll start doing it every other oil change.
Maintenance schedules are set by the warranty companies in the regions they are in, these schedules change based on many factors: government regulations (in the US it’s CAFE regulations), money, sales, advertising, incentives, etc. Outside of the US, Toyota WS fluid is not considered a “lifetime” fluid (and I still have to keep myself from laughing when I write lifetime fluid and WS in the same sentence).
I use WS fluid...I don’t see anything “wrong” with it. I don’t feel the need to buy Amsoil or Aisin fluid, or Maxlife or anything else, BUT I change it. That the key, I change it. WS is not a synthetic fluid, it turns dark very very quickly like most other fluids it needs to be changed. And WS has changed over the year - an argument can be made it’s gotten less robust - and it was always a low viscosity non synthetic fluid to begin with, but there are videos on YouTube discussing the older WS to the new WS and there are slight differences in additives and viscosity. Essentially I’d call them the same, but they are ever so slightly different. But if you want to check those videos out, here’s one https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...xVzw-CTCU1O4EZ
If you do end up watching this video^^^ be patient, the guy is long winded but he does eventually get to an oil analysis of the two.
Bottom line? Just change it. Change it every 50-70k miles or so. You’ll be surprised at just how dark/black that fluid is even at 50,000 miles.
bclexus, you have taught me a lot about GS 350's in my search to purchase one on these boards. Thank You. My post here is merely to offer another thought process from someone who has been doing this a long time.
I have just started hanging out on the GS 350 boards as I am in the market for one. I have been rebuilding engines/transmissions and wrenching my own vehicles and aircraft for over 40 years. I am also a certified oil analysis technician.
If you think that Toyota WS is lifetime fluid I will not get in your way, but I will kindly say that I disagree. It was developed in 2002. Lubricating technology has vastly improved even over the last 10 years. I do firmly believe that you should always use manufacturers recommended fluids, and WS is what I use when I change the fluid in my 4Runner and ES 350. I have added a little valvoline synthetic to my ES 350 in an attempt to get the trans temps down. I monitor all of my temps while driving with the Scanguage II. I change my fluid (drain and fill while monitoring temps) every 30k. You may find that excessive, but I also have 2 GMC trucks with the 4L60E transmission (not known for longevity), both are over 200,000 miles with the original transmission working perfectly. And yes, the headliner in one is falling.
Also, the ES 350 has a transmission filter that uses the paper element. It must be changed for proper care and maintenance. A dirty paper element filter will reduce flow and cause increased temps.
I am pretty sure the GS 350 uses a screen like my 4Runner, which is much more forgiving but will not trap small particles.
And I will also just leave this here;
I agree 100%
The only thing I’m beginning to question (regarding transmission services) is the need for a filter change. Historically I usually change the filter once - at say 70,000 miles - but after that I usually end up doing yearly drain and fills.
I owned a Honda Accord that didn’t have a serviceable filter (and there are other cars similar) and all I did was simple drain and fills every year. That transmission - despite being a KNOWN problem in those cars - was shifting great all the way up to 300,000 miles when I sold it. So, I’m not sure that the filter on a transmission is super important.
Most filters have an enormous surface area and they very rarely have even the slightest amount of contaminants found in them even after 100’s of thousands of miles. Most no longer use the metal screen/strainers, but instead use a fiberglass/synthetic type filter media...which is a good thing because I’ve read the metal screens can oxidize and effect the fluid (not sure if I buy that). I guess the magnets in the pan might need to be cleaned every 100k or so, but a magnetic drain plug would solve that problem.
The only thing I’m beginning to question (regarding transmission services) is the need for a filter change. Historically I usually change the filter once - at say 70,000 miles - but after that I usually end up doing yearly drain and fills.
I owned a Honda Accord that didn’t have a serviceable filter (and there are other cars similar) and all I did was simple drain and fills every year. That transmission - despite being a KNOWN problem in those cars - was shifting great all the way up to 300,000 miles when I sold it. So, I’m not sure that the filter on a transmission is super important.
Most filters have an enormous surface area and they very rarely have even the slightest amount of contaminants found in them even after 100’s of thousands of miles. Most no longer use the metal screen/strainers, but instead use a fiberglass/synthetic type filter media...which is a good thing because I’ve read the metal screens can oxidize and effect the fluid (not sure if I buy that). I guess the magnets in the pan might need to be cleaned every 100k or so, but a magnetic drain plug would solve that problem.
The GS filter material is paper.
Also FYI I have shown a few Honda Parts Dealers the Part# for the Accord Trans Filter that they did not think it had. Its a inline filter like a Fuel Filter that goes in a hose line fitting. The Accords back to 2003 on up do have them. The New Honda CVT 's have a filter too.
Ok I maybe mistaken about the GS one. I have opened a few different car ones. I thought I remembered it being a paper type element. Thanks. I have one new to change in the next few weeks, I'm going to look again.
Ok I maybe mistaken about the GS one. I have opened a few different car ones. I thought I remembered it being a paper type element. Thanks. I have one new to change in the next few weeks, I'm going to look again.
AWD transmissions and 8 speed RWD ones may well be different to the one I pulled apart.
Maintenance schedules are set by the warranty companies in the regions they are in, these schedules change based on many factors: government regulations (in the US it’s CAFE regulations), money, sales, advertising, incentives, etc. Outside of the US, Toyota WS fluid is not considered a “lifetime” fluid (and I still have to keep myself from laughing when I write lifetime fluid and WS in the same sentence).
I use WS fluid...I don’t see anything “wrong” with it. I don’t feel the need to buy Amsoil or Aisin fluid, or Maxlife or anything else, BUT I change it. That the key, I change it. WS is not a synthetic fluid, it turns dark very very quickly like most other fluids it needs to be changed. And WS has changed over the year - an argument can be made it’s gotten less robust - and it was always a low viscosity non synthetic fluid to begin with, but there are videos on YouTube discussing the older WS to the new WS and there are slight differences in additives and viscosity. Essentially I’d call them the same, but they are ever so slightly different. But if you want to check those videos out, here’s one https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...xVzw-CTCU1O4EZ
If you do end up watching this video^^^ be patient, the guy is long winded but he does eventually get to an oil analysis of the two.
Bottom line? Just change it. Change it every 50-70k miles or so. You’ll be surprised at just how dark/black that fluid is even at 50,000 miles.
The fluid is supposed to turn dark/turn browner, that is what happens when it is exposed to multiple heat/cool down cycles and circulates through the transmission, just because it has turned a different color then what it was in the bottle does not mean it is no longer doing its job or really dirty(it can't get dirty, it is in a sealed system and not exposed to any elements/air unlike a engine.) Engine oil quickly changes color once it is added too, that does not mean it is not doing its job either once it becomes more brown, if it didn't change color that would be more concerning. If the trans fluid is black, has particles in it, is noticeably thinner or thicker then normal that can be/is a issue.
Problem is we can't get a totally straight answer from Toyota/Lexus about the trans fluid, they say "lifetime"/no drain/fill/flush service but they also service/change fluids with the same transmission/fluid in different countries, why. If it is "lifetime" then they should cover the replacement of the transmission throughout its entire life if it fails due to the fluid not being changed/issues with the fluid. I have a feeling they won't do that, and their definition of "lifetime" fluid has a mileage/date which again they seem to have no desire to give. They likely did this "lifetime" fluid because too many transmissions were getting destroyed by flushes and the complicated nature of drain/fills that are likely easy to mess up, customers don't want to pay for, etc.
Some people say change it, others say don't, it is confusing. It is a more tedious process with having to now match temperatures of fluids/car jacked up equally and can be disastrous if not done properly. I have around 70K miles on my GS, still not sure if I want to do a drain and fill, at 75K I will really study it, ask around, is it really worth it, matching fluid temperatures, jacking car up equally, needing to be so exact has me a little concerned if something goes wrong, it always does on DIY adventures. If I could I was think of just taking a very little old fluid out and putting a little new fluid in, not a full drain and fill but I will have to research everything more.
I did 2 drain in fills on my GS430 that didn't have the lifetime fluid, first one at around 75K miles, it looked really dark coming out but once I got the fluid in the light and compared them it was not a huge difference and not nearly as dark looking as when it was under the car, it turned browner but that is a characteristic of the fluid being in the transmission so long being heated and cooled so much, it had the same basic consistency as the new fluid, the car felt no different after each drain and fill, I didn't match temperatures either, just put in the same amount that came out. Did the same with some other cars too, never noticed anything alarming, looks really dark coming out but once you get it in the light in a clear jar the difference between the new fluid is not that huge and seems normal.
AWD transmissions and 8 speed RWD ones may well be different to the one I pulled apart.
I have a Kia, a GS350 and had a ES350. You may be right about the 13 GS350 Six speed. Now we have........I said paper, you said material, and someone else said a screen. LOL! Now I am likely forgetting and dead wrong.
UDel your thoughts are likely dead right about why with Lexus and why not, but I feel like they are lying at the end of the day. When the Fluid Manufacture, and Transmission manufacture all say service and change it. Then in some manuals and some countries it says change it. Same car same transmissions. I've said the same as you a few times. Lifetime fluid no service? Make it a lifetime Transmission warranty Lexus.
I've own many Lexus from 1991 on. I've always service and changed the Transmission Fluid. I have never had a Transmission problem, and will continue to do so. I have even run Performance Mods that increased the Transmission stress load like Nitrous. I fear the Transmissions that get up in miles that have never been serviced will have failures. Again a Transmission Repair cost I do not need.
About the Old fluid color and/or burnt smell or not? I want to change it when it still looks good, not when it looks Black is contaminated or burnt. I know there have been many Transmission threads, but I think this was the best ,and thank the posters who posted the Trans and Fluid Manufactures recommendations. To each his own, I'll do what they said as my choice.
I saw this a few years ago. Not saying it's 100% correct but just some info to share here. Enjoy!
Also FYI I have shown a few Honda Parts Dealers the Part# for the Accord Trans Filter that they did not think it had. Its a inline filter like a Fuel Filter that goes in a hose line fitting. The Accords back to 2003 on up do have them. The New Honda CVT 's have a filter too.
When people say “paper”, I understand what they mean, but is it really just paper? I cut mine open and it didn’t seem like just paper...it seemed like a blend of paper/fiberglass/who knows what. But I guess it could be just paper - my point is, I’m not quite sure these filters need to be changed all that often. I’m nit sure they need to be changed more than once if you keep up with regular transmission fluid maintenance. There are videos on YouTube on it...and quite honestly they make some sense...and I have personally never seen a transmission filter look “bad”, regardless of mileage or neglect. The size of the filter is large and the magnets should catch anything that would eventually clog it. I think changing the fluid is more important. IMO.
The fluid is supposed to turn dark/turn browner, that is what happens when it is exposed to multiple heat/cool down cycles and circulates through the transmission, just because it has turned a different color then what it was in the bottle does not mean it is no longer doing its job or really dirty(it can't get dirty, it is in a sealed system and not exposed to any elements/air unlike a engine.) Engine oil quickly changes color once it is added too, that does not mean it is not doing its job either once it becomes more brown, if it didn't change color that would be more concerning. If the trans fluid is black, has particles in it, is noticeably thinner or thicker then normal that can be/is a issue.
Problem is we can't get a totally straight answer from Toyota/Lexus about the trans fluid, they say "lifetime"/no drain/fill/flush service but they also service/change fluids with the same transmission/fluid in different countries, why. If it is "lifetime" then they should cover the replacement of the transmission throughout its entire life if it fails due to the fluid not being changed/issues with the fluid. I have a feeling they won't do that, and their definition of "lifetime" fluid has a mileage/date which again they seem to have no desire to give. They likely did this "lifetime" fluid because too many transmissions were getting destroyed by flushes and the complicated nature of drain/fills that are likely easy to mess up, customers don't want to pay for, etc.
Some people say change it, others say don't, it is confusing. It is a more tedious process with having to now match temperatures of fluids/car jacked up equally and can be disastrous if not done properly. I have around 70K miles on my GS, still not sure if I want to do a drain and fill, at 75K I will really study it, ask around, is it really worth it, matching fluid temperatures, jacking car up equally, needing to be so exact has me a little concerned if something goes wrong, it always does on DIY adventures. If I could I was think of just taking a very little old fluid out and putting a little new fluid in, not a full drain and fill but I will have to research everything more.
I did 2 drain in fills on my GS430 that didn't have the lifetime fluid, first one at around 75K miles, it looked really dark coming out but once I got the fluid in the light and compared them it was not a huge difference and not nearly as dark looking as when it was under the car, it turned browner but that is a characteristic of the fluid being in the transmission so long being heated and cooled so much, it had the same basic consistency as the new fluid, the car felt no different after each drain and fill, I didn't match temperatures either, just put in the same amount that came out. Did the same with some other cars too, never noticed anything alarming, looks really dark coming out but once you get it in the light in a clear jar the difference between the new fluid is not that huge and seems normal.
Yeah, I understand color of fluid doesn’t mean all that much, I was only pointing out that WS fluid seems to change color very very quickly. Mine was black at 50,000 miles...not dark, but almost black. And at 70,000 miles in my LS460 it was very dark - dark to the point that when it came out we all thought I was going to need a transmission, but it was fine.
To really tell anything about transmission fluid you’d need a fluid analysis done and you’d also need an analysis comparison to the new fluid.
Regarding changing/not changing transmission fluid: I think it really depends on how long you plan to keep the car, some people just aren’t going to keep a car over 150,000 miles and can get away without changing the fluid, others keep it well over that and really should be maintaining these transmissions from day one. IMO.
I’m an ASE master tech, so doing these service on the Toyota/Aisin 6 and 8-speed dipstickless transmissions aren’t really all that big a deal to me. But I certainly would prefer a dipstick, that’s for sure. I can’t stand that some manufacturers have taken that away from a consumer - the amount of money manufacturers have saved be removing the dipstick tube and dipstick has to be substantial over the course of the millions of cars they sell.
The transmission (without replacing the transmission fluid) will outlast the car - whether that is 150k miles or 350k miles. I'll put it another way - the transmission will still be operating nicely long after your car's headliner is sagging down on your head as you drive down the road with the fenders on your car shaking and rattling because they are barely attached due to the bolts having disintegrated because of rust. In other words, you will no longer own the car when the transmission is still working as it should.
If you want to really (REALLY) learn about ATF from a noted expert (John Kelly) you should watch this entire video.
Toyota WS ATF is not like other ATF. It is specifically made (blended) for Toyota-Aisin designed transmissions. (See what the expert has to say about aftermarket ATF - it should give you the hibbie-gibbies!)
At 25:45 in this video the discussion about Toyota's WS ATF begins...
If anyone has any doubts about which ATF to use in their Toyota/Lexus transmission, or if the factory-fill Type WS ATF (designed jointly by Toyota and Aisin engineers to be used specifically in Toyota - Aisin transmissions) should be replaced (which is NEVER) - I think the Toyota and Aisin transmission design engineers know a hell of a lot more about their jointly designed transmissions and the automatic transmission fluid those transmissions [SHOULD] use than we do.
There are unfortunately some 3GS and 4GS AWD models that shudder at the 80-100k mark, looks like most of those with this issue have not changed the fluid. Seems like the RWD models don’t have this issue, but it may be coincidental that the AWD guys have shuddering issues with original fluid..
To me at the end of the day............ and with Lexus saying change the same Trans in other countries below says it all. Maybe 20k is extreme, but not at all ever changing is way more extreme in my opinion. If one was looking at a used car to buy with 80k, and the Owner told you they did not change the oil but one time. How would you feel about buying the car? Would the engines still currently running make you not care?
Not sure why new to Lexus recent Owners think the Transmission don't go out in Lexus's? lol!
05-10-21 | 12:04 PM
