LexusDrago

I just purchased an L/Certified 2016 GS350 with ~70000 miles on it two weeks ago. Long story short, it always made a 'ticking' kind of sound when I pressed the accelerator ever since I got it and the local Lexus dealer told me the engine has metal shavings and needs a replacement.

Yes, a Lexus dealer sold me a lemon as an L/Certified car. FWIW, the car had a solid maintenance history but it's inexcusable for the large reputed dealer to have sold me a car that making grinding noises since I first started the engine.

I live in a different state, and the local Lexus dealer here is installing a brand new 2GR-FKS engine after their warranty adjustor approved. However, I'm a little concerned about what other problems the car might have since it's not normal for a 5 year old car to have a ruined engine. Hence, I'm wondering what else should be replaced while they're swapping the engine to make sure it's reliable for the long haul.

Let me know your thoughts.

jeverett72

I plan on doing transmission fluid drain and fill (not flush) every 60k miles. The Lexus dealer will tell you that the fluid is "lifetime" fluid and that they don't recommend changing it so you might have to go to a reputable transmission specialist which I will do. But be careful and ask if doing that will void the warranty.

Lexus recommends spark plugs at 100k miles. Lexus recommends brake fluid exchange every 30k miles for the GS.

Some people have reported that the Aisin water pumps have needed replacing prior to 90k miles which is the general rule of thumb for water pumps. I watched a YT video with a Toyota master tech and he said the water pumps do occasionally fail or the cooling system starts to leak a little coolant due to the water pump not functioning at 100% but it doesn't seem to be a widespread problem or something that is working fine one day and then all of sudden craps out and you lose all your coolant. It happens slowly over time. Something about the impeller in the pump being weak. They don't always fail or need replacing before 90k. It seems to be hit or miss, but he mentioned that he has seen this for some Toyota 3.5L V6 Tacomas, Highlanders, Avalons and Camrys and I have seen a couple people mention it in the RX forum. Check the plastic cap on the top of the coolant reservoir (just behind the grill) and you will prob see a little dried pink crust around the outside of the cap which is the coolant. I can already see a little pink crust on my GS which has only 41k miles. I just keep an eye on it and check the coolant level every week, but the coolant level is always at "full" and doesn't seem to go below that. It's not expensive to replace. I think the pumps themselves are only $110 or so. I would definitely replace this by 90k at the latest b/c a bad water pump can lead to a blown head gasket which is very expensive. I don't remember the recommended mileage for a coolant flush but I think it's around 90k.

Air filters are super easy. I do them by myself. Takes about 30 seconds. I also get my oil and filter changed every 5k miles (or every 6 months) which some people think is excessive, but $65 is worth it for me to help prevent any problems with carbon buildup on the piston rings or in the chambers. Cheap insurance for a very expensive problem and parts to fix. Lexus only recommends oil and filter changes every 10k miles, but I'm not going to buy a nice luxury car and be cheap about oil. I also plan on keeping my GS forever so that plays a part in it.

The dealer can test the alternator to see if it needs replacing. You can buy a little $20 voltmeter on Amazon that plugs into the cigarette lighter to see the battery voltage. My battery shows 13.9 or 14.0 volts when I start up and it drops to 13.3 or 13.4 while driving. Very consistent.

These are all preventative maintenance items so the dealer prob won't pay for any of the stuff I listed unless they are clearly failing. If they are doing an entire engine swap they should be checking all the fluids and major components anyway.

You can find the specific maintenance schedule for your car when you create an account at drivers.lexus.com and enter your VIN.

Also don't be surprised if you open the hood after the engine swap and still hear a ticking sound at idle coming from the left rear of the engine bay. The high pressure fuel pumps in the GS engines all make a ticking sound even when they are perfect. It's just the way they are.

bclexus

Hate to hear you're having to deal with this.

I suspect the tech will install new spark plugs and be using new gaskets and filters where necessary. You may want to think about paying for a new water pump to be installed while he's working right there at it since the car has 70k miles.

I don't know how successful you'll be with your demand to extend the L/Certified warranty for two more years (on top of the two already included) at their expense, but I think Lexus clearly owes you something material for the stress of having to deal with this and to provide you with peace-of-mind and a degree of goodwill going forward.

No one will ever know, but it sure would be interesting to know what caused the problem with the engine. Makes me wonder if the previous owner caused it by doing something nefarious. Are there any signs the car had been modified in any way - engine, suspension, etc.?

What you are dealing with is highly uncommon.

703

You’re lucky to get a new engine. They could have replaced it with an old engine from a junk yard with approx the same KM.

But it does sound like the car has been abused. Was it used for racing? Pay some attention to the transmission. Does it shift smoothly?

LexusDrago

Makes sense. I will ask them to replace the water pump at my expense since the car will already be opened up.



If they are not doing the spark plugs I’ll have them replace them too. As for the gaskets, are they not part of the engine? Likewise for the oil pump, is it a part of the engine?


Also, do you think I should ask them to replace the brake fluid, coolant or diff fluid as well?


That’s my worry as well, that someone might have been racing with it and abused it.

I can’t find any modifications on it FWIW and the transmission doesn’t seem to show any problems (also it’s not an f sport which tend to get more abused). So I don’t think Lexus is just going to give me a new transmission.

Do you recommend draining and refilling the transmission fluid?

websurfer

Lots of people assume buying Certified that the vehicle is in perfect condition. I also assume that until I ran into issues with certified ones as well. Most dealers do go thru with all the inspection but there are a few that doesn't do that thorough inspection and miss many things.

For this case, it sounds like the vehicle was neglected or abused in a way. No way it would have an engine issue already. The engine is supposed to be a very reliable engine. Probably want to get a full inspection of all the components. Cerified warranty is great covering almost the majority of issues.

Knucklebus

I doubt any of those contributed to the failure of the engine. It is almost surely lubrication related, due to excessively low or abusive behavior. I'll break it down for you, point by point:

1. Alternator? - No amount of abuse will cause much damage to an alternator. Once the battery is charged, all they do is provide enough power to run the electronics. It likely will last its normal life?
2. Spark Plugs? - The new engine should have new ones. They wouldn't put old ones in the new engine. The spark plugs also didn't cause the failure.
3. Battery? - The battery is both cheap and easy to replace and if it starts the car, there's not much concern.
4. Water pump? - Also new with the engine I suspect. You can ask to be sure but I would consider it part of the long block assembly.
5. Oil pump? - Integral engine component. They most certainly have a new one in the new engine.
6. Fuel pump? - That is in the tank. Unless they abused the fuel system by putting contaminated liquids (or heaven forbid, solids) in the tank, it just supplies fuel upon demand.
7. Exhaust manifold and intake gaskets? - IF (big IF) the engine comes as a long block, they may swap your intake system onto the new engine. I'm sure they will look at it prior to swapping. I would expect them to use new gaskets. Exhaust manifolds from your old motor are simple pieces. They are either good or not. The biggest reason an exhaust manifold would be bad would be because it is cracked. You would hear that as an exhaust leak/tick.
8. Transmission fluid? - This is a valid concern. Depending on how they treated the motor, if it was caused by the operator, they might have subjected the trans to excessive stresses. A neutral drop for instance. If it shifted fine, a fluid change will tell the tale if the fluid is burnt.
9. Air filter? Fuel filter? Seals? Anything else? - Air filter is a wear item and easily replaced. Fuel filter is similar to the fuel pump above. All engine seals will be new with the engine.

Were it mine, I'd ask the dealer to confirm the condition of the differential fluid and the transmission fluid. Those are pretty easy for a dealer to do and should be a minimum after botching the L/C status. Clearly, they missed it or didn't do it and just paid the L/C fee to brand it for a higher selling price.

Next, how does the interior look? How does the underside look? A car that was abused will show signs in many different areas.

I'd look at these areas to get a feel for the car:

1. Is the front lip cracked, all the paint gone?
2. Are the wheels curbed excessively?
3. Is the interior heavily worn? Look under the mats. Is there a significant wear at the accelerator/brake heal area?
4. Look under it at the jack points. Are they mangled? Do you see any scrapes on the bottom like they did a Dukes of Hazard jump and bottomed it out?
5. Look in the trunk. Look for stains. Look under the cover where the spare sits. Are there any fluids in there?
6. Looking under the hood of a dealership prepared car is pretty useless if they have a good detailer but sometimes you can find signs of overspray, missing fasteners, etc to clue you in it was tweaked.

RA051823

The car market is in a unprecedented time right now. I have seen a lot of shady things from dealers as of late. Ever car dealer is hurting for inventory and I think the quality of that inventory is starting to slip at the expense of trying to keep the lights on. Even new cars are being slapped together and rushed out the door. I just saw a $100k Ram TRX and the front fenders weren't even aligned correctly from the factory. That's insane!

Thankfully you had a warranty and Lexus is dropping in a brand new engine for you. I have 110k miles on our GS350 AWD and it's been the most reliable car we have ever owned! I do tend to over service my cars because I want to make sure they last, but I have never had to replace a single part on the car, yet anyways. Even the water pump is original in our car and I had no idea these might be a problem area. I will have to keep an eye on it or I might just replace it this summer as a preventative maintenance item. As for what happened to your engine, it's all speculation util someone can do a tear down of the engine to determine the root cause. I won't speculate on what happened to your engine, but I can tell you this, the engines in the GS350 are well built and will last a very, very long time if you take care of them (regular maintenance). Personally, I change my oil every 7.5k miles, transmission fluid every 60-70k, spark plugs every 60k (Lexus recommended interval), coolant every 5-6 years or 70k miles, and diff fluid every 60k. Simply put, if you take care of the car it will take care of you!

Enjoy your new ride and try not and let this hiccup spoil your experience too much. After all it is a machine and sometimes ***** happens! The good news is the dealer is taking care of it for you!

LexusDrago

Thanks a lot for the detailed info!

As for the interior, it's in pretty great shape and mostly looks excellent other than very minor wear on the steering wheel leather and slight creases on the leather seats. The wheels are in good shape and the dealer put brand new tires on. Because of this (and the L/Certified status), I had been under the impression that I was buying a cared for car.

Interestingly, the first two owners of the car only put 39k miles till the end of 2019, and then the third owner doubled it to 70k in a year plus few months.

As per your suggestion and the consensus here, I will drop the alternator, spark plugs, battery, fuel pump and oil pump as areas of concern. I will ask them to confirm that they are indeed replacing the serpentine belt and water pump. Other than that I will ask the dealer the check the condition of the different fluid and transmission fluid (I might send it to blackstone labs just to be sure).

Let me know if you guys can think of anything else I've missed or have any comments in general - and thank you so much for all your help!

LexusDrago

A possibly stupid question: I'm assuming swapping the engine means the coolant fluid will by default get replaced. Is that accurate?

Knucklebus

I would generally think so but if they were shady on the L/C, ask to be sure. They had to drain it and at least add make-up antifreeze for what was left in the old engine block.

bclexus

@LexusDrago How certain are you that the replacement engine for your car will be a 'brand new' engine and not a used or rebuilt replacement? The reason I ask is because when an automatic transmission needs to be replaced it's always a rebuilt transmission, not a 'brand new' transmission. I personally would not want a rebuilt engine using that same block.

LexusDrago

I asked the service advisor whether it was new, and after confirming with his parts guy, he said it was brand new and luckily they had a 2GR-KFS in stock. I'm quite relieved about that, as at least I can trust the reliability of the new engine.

Out of interest, what do you mean by 'the same block' here?

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

Sometimes New Engine mean new Long Block. I would ask to speak with the service Manager. To make it simple. Ask what parts will be re-used? Ask about the Water pump, alternator, Cylinder Heads and so on. What will be reused? An old trick. You can also take a sharp object and make a unnoticeable X or mark on the front of the Heads, Water pump, and other. Where you can see it inside the engine bay. Look after replacement to see if its the old ones with the X, or new ones.

I may be a little different but I would also ask if the Carfax would show a repair of new engine installed?

About replacing the water pump and other out of my pocket? I dont get why I would pay for a new Water pump, and/or any other repair/replace on a Certified Lexus that is covered under the L/Cert Warranty if its only 2 weeks old? Maybe I missing something here? That makes no sense.

I would also change the Oil and filter on that new engine at 1000 - 2000 miles, then at 6.5k - 7k intervals. Just what I do.

Me...... I aslo pull out my L/Cert inspection, call the Service Director at Dealer that Certified it and ask them what Tech and how their service inspected, drove, and L/Certified a Car that sounded like it had Metal from the day you got it. Sorry you had the problem but be glad you did Not buy from a "As Is" purchase.

LexusDrago

Interesting.

So according to wikiepdia: "A long block engine replacement typically requires swapping out parts from the original engine to the long block. These parts include the oil pan, timing cover, valve covers, intake manifold, emission-control parts, carburetor or fuel injection system, the exhaust manifold(s), alternator, starter, power steering pump (if any), and air conditionercompressor (if any).".

Is it 'bad' if they just install a brand new long block and should I be asking them to install a whole new crate engine? Logically, I'd imagine they wouldn't be replacing things like the alternator or exhaust manifolds.
I get what you're saying, it's under warranty so why pay for it now vs wait till it fails and then have it replaced for free? The reason I want to replace them is because, since I am getting a brand new engine, I don't want it be damaged by a future coolant failure etc.

For sure, I'm pushing them hard, trying to get them to extend my L/Certified warranty for 2 more years (for a total of 4).