So much for predictions of the 4GS being a flop
06-01-12 | 09:24 PM
#91
Thread Starter
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 88
From: Singapore
IMO, Lexus should just bite the bullet and release the GS-F no matter what. The GS needs a halo model to burnish the performance credentials of the new 4th Gen GS, even if it means not making money initially.
Akio Toyoda and the US Lexus evangelists in the Toyota hierarchy had the right idea. They just need to persist in their push for for excitement and dynamism for Lexus in general and the 4GS in particular. They need to think longterm and not shortterm.
BMW didn't build their reputation for ultimate driving cars overnight - they built it over several generations of 5 and 3 series. Neither will Lexus - they're already on the right track, they just need to continue down this path that they've trailblazed.
Akio Toyoda and the US Lexus evangelists in the Toyota hierarchy had the right idea. They just need to persist in their push for for excitement and dynamism for Lexus in general and the 4GS in particular. They need to think longterm and not shortterm.
BMW didn't build their reputation for ultimate driving cars overnight - they built it over several generations of 5 and 3 series. Neither will Lexus - they're already on the right track, they just need to continue down this path that they've trailblazed.
06-01-12 | 11:30 PM
#93
Thread Starter
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 88
From: Singapore
Not immediately but Lexus should think longterm. Look at BMW, even though the current 5 series is a big step backwards in handling, BMW still is allowed to coast on its past reputation as The Ultimate Driver's Car. A reputation dies hard and is equally hard to build.
If Lexus was a cash strapped company needing a quick cash infusion, by all means cut spending as much as possible. But Toyota has huge reserves. It can and should stay the course and if it's serious about creating a new reputation for itself as builder of exciting vehicles, it should start as of NOW. And being serious about performance means an M5 fighter in addition to an M3 fighter. And yes that also means bridging models like a V8 or at least a supercharged V6 model in the GS line-up.
As a corollary, it also means that Lexus can't half-*** the GSF. Because of the widespread perceptions that Lexus is a glorified Toyota and are boring, in order for the GSF to be considered in the same breath as the M5/RS6/AMG, it can't just be on par with or slightly better than the M5 , it needs to be comprehensively superior in every aspect. That probably means an all aluminium bodyshell with extensive carbon fiber reinforcement, some kind of trick RWD-based AWD system that somehow has minimal weight penalty (I'm thinking Electrically powered Front wheels with no physical driveshaft connecting the front and rear wheels), Adjustable anti-roll bars as standard, much more than 1G of skidpad, some version of torque vectoring etc. In essence a 4 door Nissan GTR but with the refinement and luxury of the very best Lexuses and yet still undercut the GTR/M5's weight by several hundred pounds. It can't just be competitive to its rivals, it needs to send shock and awe through the market. And on top of all that, it still needs to be cheaper than the M5. That's how the original LS400 turned the luxury car market on its head and that's what the new GS-F should seek to achieve.
Ok getting off my soapbox now LOL....
If Lexus was a cash strapped company needing a quick cash infusion, by all means cut spending as much as possible. But Toyota has huge reserves. It can and should stay the course and if it's serious about creating a new reputation for itself as builder of exciting vehicles, it should start as of NOW. And being serious about performance means an M5 fighter in addition to an M3 fighter. And yes that also means bridging models like a V8 or at least a supercharged V6 model in the GS line-up.
As a corollary, it also means that Lexus can't half-*** the GSF. Because of the widespread perceptions that Lexus is a glorified Toyota and are boring, in order for the GSF to be considered in the same breath as the M5/RS6/AMG, it can't just be on par with or slightly better than the M5 , it needs to be comprehensively superior in every aspect. That probably means an all aluminium bodyshell with extensive carbon fiber reinforcement, some kind of trick RWD-based AWD system that somehow has minimal weight penalty (I'm thinking Electrically powered Front wheels with no physical driveshaft connecting the front and rear wheels), Adjustable anti-roll bars as standard, much more than 1G of skidpad, some version of torque vectoring etc. In essence a 4 door Nissan GTR but with the refinement and luxury of the very best Lexuses and yet still undercut the GTR/M5's weight by several hundred pounds. It can't just be competitive to its rivals, it needs to send shock and awe through the market. And on top of all that, it still needs to be cheaper than the M5. That's how the original LS400 turned the luxury car market on its head and that's what the new GS-F should seek to achieve.
Ok getting off my soapbox now LOL....
Last edited by natnut; 06-02-12 at 09:14 AM.
06-02-12 | 05:32 AM
#94
06-02-12 | 05:46 AM
#95
Not immediately but Lexus should think longterm. Look at BMW, even though the current 5 series is a big step backwards in handling, BMW still is allowed to coast on its past reputation as The Ulatimate Driver's Car. A reputation dies hard and is equally hard to build.
If Lexus was a cash strapped company needing a quick cash infusion, by all means cut spending as much as possible. But Toyota has huge reserves. It can and should stay the course and if it's serious about creating a new reputation for itself as builder of exciting vehicles, it should start as of NOW. An being serious about performance means an M5 fighter in addition to an M3 fighter. And yes that also means bridging models like a V8 or at least a supercharged V6 model in the GS line-up.
As a corollary, it also means that Lexus can't half-*** the GSF. Because of the widespread perceptions that Lexus is a glorified Toyota and are boring, in order for the GSF to be considered in the same breath as the M5/RS6/AMG, it can't just be on par with or slightly better than the M5 , it needs to be comprehensively superior in every aspect. That probably means an all aluminium bodyshell with extensive carbon fiber reinforcement, some kind of trick RWD based AWD system that somehow has minimal weight penalty (I'm thinking Electrically powered Front wheels with no physical driveshaft connecting the front and rear wheels), Adjustable anti-roll bars as standard, much more than 1G of skidpad, some version of torque vectoring etc. In essence a 4 door Nissan GTR but with the refinement and luxury of the very best Lexuses and yet still undercut the GTR/M5's weight by several hundered pounds. It can't just be competitive to its rivals, it needs to send shock and awe through the market. And on top of all that, it still needs to be cheaper than the M5. That's how the original LS400 turned the luxury car market on its head and that's what the new GS-F should seek to achieve.
Ok getting off my soapbox now LOL....
If Lexus was a cash strapped company needing a quick cash infusion, by all means cut spending as much as possible. But Toyota has huge reserves. It can and should stay the course and if it's serious about creating a new reputation for itself as builder of exciting vehicles, it should start as of NOW. An being serious about performance means an M5 fighter in addition to an M3 fighter. And yes that also means bridging models like a V8 or at least a supercharged V6 model in the GS line-up.
As a corollary, it also means that Lexus can't half-*** the GSF. Because of the widespread perceptions that Lexus is a glorified Toyota and are boring, in order for the GSF to be considered in the same breath as the M5/RS6/AMG, it can't just be on par with or slightly better than the M5 , it needs to be comprehensively superior in every aspect. That probably means an all aluminium bodyshell with extensive carbon fiber reinforcement, some kind of trick RWD based AWD system that somehow has minimal weight penalty (I'm thinking Electrically powered Front wheels with no physical driveshaft connecting the front and rear wheels), Adjustable anti-roll bars as standard, much more than 1G of skidpad, some version of torque vectoring etc. In essence a 4 door Nissan GTR but with the refinement and luxury of the very best Lexuses and yet still undercut the GTR/M5's weight by several hundered pounds. It can't just be competitive to its rivals, it needs to send shock and awe through the market. And on top of all that, it still needs to be cheaper than the M5. That's how the original LS400 turned the luxury car market on its head and that's what the new GS-F should seek to achieve.
Ok getting off my soapbox now LOL....
I love your imagination. All that and keep the price the same. That would mean a smaller profit margin for Toyota/Lexus. The company lost money due to the earthquake last year and is still trying to recover. I doubt they will spend the money it takes to meet the standards you envision....but I like your thinking.
06-02-12 | 06:23 AM
#96
Lead Lap
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,658
Likes: 216
From: #BBNine
They're not going to sell many 450h's...and those are 70k. What makes any of us think they can sell a 450hp GSF for less than 90k? They certainly won't sell many of those either. If I ever spend 90K on a car (please shoot me) it certainly will NOT be a GS in any flavor.
06-02-12 | 09:19 AM
#97
Thread Starter
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 88
From: Singapore
Halo models aren't meant to sell and are definitely not to bring in the bulk of the line-up's profits.
It's the spillover effect. How much prouder would we be to own a GS350 which had the same essential chassis as that of a GS-F that spanks an M5?
Then instead of people misguidely labelling a 4GS as a glorified Camry, they'll be saying : "the GS350, isn't that the little brother to the M5 kllling GS-F?"
It's the spillover effect. How much prouder would we be to own a GS350 which had the same essential chassis as that of a GS-F that spanks an M5?
Then instead of people misguidely labelling a 4GS as a glorified Camry, they'll be saying : "the GS350, isn't that the little brother to the M5 kllling GS-F?"
06-02-12 | 10:39 AM
#98
In my fantasy world I'd love to see Lexus copy Benz by having a sedan and coupe in every segment. Plus a regular and high power version for each model.
I don't believe Lexus will ever do something like that. Plus, it seems they aren't able to make cars sexy that don't cost 400K.
The SC430 was controversial.
The IS-coupe is darn right not attractive.
Now the 4GS could have been done better.
My expectations have changed. I'll be happy if they make the next SC look like that LF-LC and pack between 400-500HP.....and do it soon.
I don't believe Lexus will ever do something like that. Plus, it seems they aren't able to make cars sexy that don't cost 400K.
The SC430 was controversial.
The IS-coupe is darn right not attractive.
Now the 4GS could have been done better.
My expectations have changed. I'll be happy if they make the next SC look like that LF-LC and pack between 400-500HP.....and do it soon.
06-02-12 | 04:44 PM
#101
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,371
Likes: 488
From: Ca
Rank, Luxury Vehicle, April 2012, % Change, Year To Date, YTD % Change:
#1 BMW 3-Series 9003 + 20.8% 33,701 + 26.7%
#2 Lexus RX 6842 - 12.3% 24,729 - 14.3%
#3 Mercedes-Benz C-Class 6424 + 22.8% 24,531 + 20.1%
#4 Mercedes-Benz E-Class 5328 - 0.3% 19,201 - 5.9%
#5 Cadillac CTS 4202 - 0.4% 16,276 - 12.1%
#6 Cadillac SRX 3998 - 8.7% 17,290 - 5.7%
#7 Acura MDX 3952 + 1.0% 14,151 - 5.6%
#8 BMW 5-Series 3566 - 2.8% 16,275 - 2.7%
#9 BMW X5 3561 + 50.9% 12,236 + 21.7%
#10 Hyundai Genesis 3548 + 34.0% 11,780 + 23.5%
#11 Acura TSX 3138 + 1.1% 12,132 + 13.9%
#12 Audi A4 3108 - 6.6% 11,794 - 1.8%
#13 Mercedes-Benz M-Class 3057 + 53.6% 14,537 + 58.2%
#14 Lexus ES350 3000 - 14.1% 11,548 - 4.1%
#15 Acura TL 2997 + 3.8% 11,414 + 4.5%
#16 Infiniti G 2962 - 23.2% 18,278 - 11.6%
#17 Mercedes-Benz GL-Class 2768 + 70.5% 7922 + 20.7%
#18 BMW X3 2479 + 8.9% 9132 + 14.3%
#19 Audi Q5 2462 + 24.5% 8432 + 17.4%
#20 Lexus IS 2344 - 11.2% 8966 - 7.3%
#21 Infiniti JX35 2079 ----- 2619 -----
#22 Mercedes-Benz GLK 2067 + 7.3% 8095 + 9.9%
#23 Lexus GS 2006 + 421% 7054 + 374%
#24 Acura RDX 1984 + 47.7% 4882 - 1.9%
#25 Lincoln MKX 1882 + 1.2% 8309 + 13.7%
#26 Lincoln MKZ 1863 - 26.8% 8944 - 1.0%
#27 Volvo S60 1732 - 12.2% 7675 + 23.5%
#28 Lexus CT200h 1620 + 85.1% 6510 + 112%
#29 Cadillac Escalade 1592 - 8.1% 6869 - 16.0%
#30 Audi A6 1565 + 137% 5146 + 100%
Source: Manufacturers &*ANDC
Intro
I'm really sorry for the state of Lexus sales.
It is important for the manufacturers, dealers and sales reps to earn a living.
Lexus must also sell, so that they have sufficient funds, to pour back into Research and Development.
Presently, Lexus R&D is mainly financed by sales of entry level Toyotas.
Lucky the Camries, Corollas, Landcruisers, Prados, and HiLux etc are doing well.
The new Camry looks nice.
The forthcoming Corolla looks nice too.
The person in charge of the entry level Toyota line-up, is doing a better job than the person in charge of running the luxury Lexus line-up.
Toyota has control of the entry level line up, where Lexus does not have control of the luxury line up.
Toyota is number 1.
Lexus is not yet number 1.
The RX is doing exceptionally well.
The new 3 Series is only doing better because it's a new release, while the RX is mid-term.
Tailoring for the Midsize Class of Buyers
Notice how the E Class outsells the pants off the 5 Series?
This is where we have to understand the demographics of this class of buyers.
The average buyer in the E Class, 5 Series, A6, and GS is normally older, or more mature, than the average buyer in the C Class, 3 Series, A4 and IS class.
Hence, regardless of how sporty the 5 Series, nor its M5 brethren, the E Class significantly outsells the pants off the 5 Series.
Thus, we have to design the GS to suit the taste of that class of buyers.
Complex - Combining Midsize ES & GS Sales
Another point to note, is that the matter is actually quite complex.
Because Lexus actually has not one, but two models in the mid-size class!
Lexus has both the ES and the GS.
The ES being the cheaper indirect injection, mounted in front of the front axle and front drive for a 65:35 weight distribution, simple single lower link MacPherson strut suspension, and all steel construction.
Whereas, the GS is more premium, with direct injection, mounted behind the front axle and rear drive for a near 50:50 weight distribution, complex multi-link upper and lower arms aluminium alloy suspension, and an Al bonnet.
The ES actually steals a lot of sales from the GS.
In a way, the ES and GS are one.
The combined sales of the ES and GS, to April 2012 is roughly 18,500 units, versus the E Class 19,000 and the 5 Series' 16,000 units.
Thus, in a way, Lexus is already almost on par with Benz, and slightly outselling BM in the midsize class.
However, some may dispute that the entry level ES is really cheap, and that its volume should not be counted.
So this combining of ES and GS sales is a controversy.
Obviously, the GS sales on its own of 7,000 units is a dead duck relative to the Germans.
Solutions:
Let's forget about combining ES and GS midsize sales for a moment.
On its own, how can the GS improve on its 7,000 units year to date?
Well, its primarily about designing the GS to cater for that type of mature buyer, in this segment.
Remember that regardless of how sporty the 5 Series is, the E Class outsells the pants off the 5 Series.
1. Name
Also remember that when consumers buy cars, there is an order of priority.
The number one order of priority is actually the name.
When consumers don't know much about something, they always go for the name.
The name is based on the reputation for quality.
Lexus is good quality, but its still not at the top of the tree yet.
2. Styling
The next thing the consumer goes for, is the styling!
Because from 100 yards away, they can see the car, without being able to touch it yet.
This is where the styling of the new 4GS outside and inside, can improve on.
3. Space
Then comes the interior space.
This is where the potential buyer sits inside the car, and they immediately feel the space.
The new 4GS isn't bad for interior space.
Its pretty competitive for head, shoulder and leg room.
It could be a little more generous here esp in leg and shoulder room.
One area where the new 4GS could dramatically improve upon is the poor rear foot space!
The new 4GS boot at some 520 liters is actually the biggest in its class.
4. Engine
Chronologically, the next step, the consumer starts up the engine!
Both the old 3GS and the new 4GS is strong on mid-range and top end torque.
However, most average consumers want torque from the bottom.
Thus Lexus needs to improve the bottom end torque of both the 3GS and 4GS.
5. Other Categories
In chronological order, the next categories include:
Chassis: handling and ride.
Refinement
Equipment
Safety
Durability
Environmental Friendliness
Price.
The new 4GS is doing very well in the chassis, and the refinement.
The 4GS handling, ride, and refinement is the best in this class.
Just the new found acceleration noise level of the new 4GS is a controversy; especially at a time when the 5 Series and A6 sport only smaller 3.0 liter forced induction engines which spin more smoothly than a bigger 3.5 liter reciprocating mass.
6. Engine and Chassis Variants?
Adding engine variations like V8's, and 3.0 V6 Twin Turbos will help, but only contribute a little to the overall volume of sales.
Likewise, adding chassis variations like a lower roof line, curvaceous and swoopy four door coupe variant like the Benz CLS, BM 6 Series, and Audi A7 Sportsback, or even next year's 2013 GS 2 door coupe - will help, but again, these will only contribute in small volume to the overall sales.
Btw, the old 3GS was actually a low, curvaceous and swoopy four door coupe!!!
That's why it could not sell in volume.
This type of four door coupe is not well accepted by this conservative category of buyer, both in its swoopy styling, and in compromised interior space.
The old swoopy 3GS formula did work for Lexus in Japan, because the old swoopy 3GS sold alongside a more conventional boxy Toyota Crown.
However, the old swoopy 3GS 4 door coupe formula didn't work on international markets, because we do not have access to the conventional boxy Toyota Crown photographed below.
7. Performance Variants?
Performance variants like making a GS-F will also contribute, but only in a small way.
8. Formula 1 Racing?
Presently, Toyota's greatest financial investment is in participating in Formula 1, and so far, F1 has contributed little to Toyota or Lexus sales.
The new Lexus 4GS brochure doesn't even have any information regarding Toyota's F1 involvement in their brochure!
Conclusion
In some ways, Lexus already has much better control of the midsize luxury segment than it thinks, with combined sales of the ES and GS, and this fact needs to be promoted more.
Combining ES and GS midsize luxury sales is obviously very controversial.
The next generation ES recently released should really lift combined sales volumes of ES/GS in the midsize luxo market.
On its own, the key to 4GS success is on the fundamentals of the car, especially in the areas of high priority like exterior and interior styling, space [esp. rear foot space, and to a lesser extent rear leg and rear shoulder room], and bottom end torque, which it needs to improve on.
Thus, if the new 4GS brushes up in these categories, then it will ultimately sell very well, and Lexus will truly have indisputable number 1 control of the luxury market.
This is not only the cheapest, but it is also ultimately the most direct and effective way for Lexus to have number 1 luxury market control, just like Toyota has number 1 entry level control.
Engine, chassis, performance variants, and even F1 Racing involvement will all make small contributions; though at a huge cost.
In particular, F1 involvement comes at a huge cost, while engine, chassis and performance variants are relatively cheaper.
That's my 2 cents anyway.
As a matter of interest, this conventional conservative tall boxy Toyota Crown, combined well with the old swoopy 3GS 4 door coupe design in their domestic market of Japan.
However, international markets did not have access to this Japanese domestic market only Toyota Crown, hence sales of the old swoopy 3GS "4 door coupe" were poor, because the demographics of midsize luxury buyers prefers a more conservative tall boxy design.
The Toyota Crown actually runs on the same platform, and uses the same engine as the Lexus 3GS, but the Crown uses soft and long legged suspension travel.
In other words, Toyota does have many variations in body styles, and many variations of the same platform like the E/CLS, 5/6 Seires, and A6/A7, but they are limited to the domestic Japanese market only.
In the days before Lexus was set up in Japan, the Lexus 1992-97 1GS and 1997-2005 2GS was called a Toyota "Aristo" in Japan.
The Toyota Aristo is the sporting luxury version of the pure luxury Toyota Crown.
Understand that the old 3GS is a low and swoopy 4 door coupe, ala CLS, 6 Series and A7 Sportsback; too radical for conservative tastes in this midsize segment of the luxury market, hence limited sales on its own.
However, if a conventional tall boxy sedan, is supplemented with a low and swoopy four door coupe, then sales and overall image will lift, even if the buyer ends up choosing the tall boxy conservative alternative.
Ditto the image provided by V8, turbo 6, and GS-F alternatives.
However, it does cost a lot of money to produce these variants, even though the sales is still limited.
For market supremacy, it is best to directly improve the new 4GS exterior and interior styling, more rear foot space, improved bottom end torque, and more sound insulation under acceleration...
#1 BMW 3-Series 9003 + 20.8% 33,701 + 26.7%
#2 Lexus RX 6842 - 12.3% 24,729 - 14.3%
#3 Mercedes-Benz C-Class 6424 + 22.8% 24,531 + 20.1%
#4 Mercedes-Benz E-Class 5328 - 0.3% 19,201 - 5.9%
#5 Cadillac CTS 4202 - 0.4% 16,276 - 12.1%
#6 Cadillac SRX 3998 - 8.7% 17,290 - 5.7%
#7 Acura MDX 3952 + 1.0% 14,151 - 5.6%
#8 BMW 5-Series 3566 - 2.8% 16,275 - 2.7%
#9 BMW X5 3561 + 50.9% 12,236 + 21.7%
#10 Hyundai Genesis 3548 + 34.0% 11,780 + 23.5%
#11 Acura TSX 3138 + 1.1% 12,132 + 13.9%
#12 Audi A4 3108 - 6.6% 11,794 - 1.8%
#13 Mercedes-Benz M-Class 3057 + 53.6% 14,537 + 58.2%
#14 Lexus ES350 3000 - 14.1% 11,548 - 4.1%
#15 Acura TL 2997 + 3.8% 11,414 + 4.5%
#16 Infiniti G 2962 - 23.2% 18,278 - 11.6%
#17 Mercedes-Benz GL-Class 2768 + 70.5% 7922 + 20.7%
#18 BMW X3 2479 + 8.9% 9132 + 14.3%
#19 Audi Q5 2462 + 24.5% 8432 + 17.4%
#20 Lexus IS 2344 - 11.2% 8966 - 7.3%
#21 Infiniti JX35 2079 ----- 2619 -----
#22 Mercedes-Benz GLK 2067 + 7.3% 8095 + 9.9%
#23 Lexus GS 2006 + 421% 7054 + 374%
#24 Acura RDX 1984 + 47.7% 4882 - 1.9%
#25 Lincoln MKX 1882 + 1.2% 8309 + 13.7%
#26 Lincoln MKZ 1863 - 26.8% 8944 - 1.0%
#27 Volvo S60 1732 - 12.2% 7675 + 23.5%
#28 Lexus CT200h 1620 + 85.1% 6510 + 112%
#29 Cadillac Escalade 1592 - 8.1% 6869 - 16.0%
#30 Audi A6 1565 + 137% 5146 + 100%
Source: Manufacturers &*ANDC
Intro
I'm really sorry for the state of Lexus sales.
It is important for the manufacturers, dealers and sales reps to earn a living.
Lexus must also sell, so that they have sufficient funds, to pour back into Research and Development.
Presently, Lexus R&D is mainly financed by sales of entry level Toyotas.
Lucky the Camries, Corollas, Landcruisers, Prados, and HiLux etc are doing well.
The new Camry looks nice.
The forthcoming Corolla looks nice too.
The person in charge of the entry level Toyota line-up, is doing a better job than the person in charge of running the luxury Lexus line-up.
Toyota has control of the entry level line up, where Lexus does not have control of the luxury line up.
Toyota is number 1.
Lexus is not yet number 1.
The RX is doing exceptionally well.
The new 3 Series is only doing better because it's a new release, while the RX is mid-term.
Tailoring for the Midsize Class of Buyers
Notice how the E Class outsells the pants off the 5 Series?
This is where we have to understand the demographics of this class of buyers.
The average buyer in the E Class, 5 Series, A6, and GS is normally older, or more mature, than the average buyer in the C Class, 3 Series, A4 and IS class.
Hence, regardless of how sporty the 5 Series, nor its M5 brethren, the E Class significantly outsells the pants off the 5 Series.
Thus, we have to design the GS to suit the taste of that class of buyers.
Complex - Combining Midsize ES & GS Sales
Another point to note, is that the matter is actually quite complex.
Because Lexus actually has not one, but two models in the mid-size class!
Lexus has both the ES and the GS.
The ES being the cheaper indirect injection, mounted in front of the front axle and front drive for a 65:35 weight distribution, simple single lower link MacPherson strut suspension, and all steel construction.
Whereas, the GS is more premium, with direct injection, mounted behind the front axle and rear drive for a near 50:50 weight distribution, complex multi-link upper and lower arms aluminium alloy suspension, and an Al bonnet.
The ES actually steals a lot of sales from the GS.
In a way, the ES and GS are one.
The combined sales of the ES and GS, to April 2012 is roughly 18,500 units, versus the E Class 19,000 and the 5 Series' 16,000 units.
Thus, in a way, Lexus is already almost on par with Benz, and slightly outselling BM in the midsize class.
However, some may dispute that the entry level ES is really cheap, and that its volume should not be counted.
So this combining of ES and GS sales is a controversy.
Obviously, the GS sales on its own of 7,000 units is a dead duck relative to the Germans.
Solutions:
Let's forget about combining ES and GS midsize sales for a moment.
On its own, how can the GS improve on its 7,000 units year to date?
Well, its primarily about designing the GS to cater for that type of mature buyer, in this segment.
Remember that regardless of how sporty the 5 Series is, the E Class outsells the pants off the 5 Series.
1. Name
Also remember that when consumers buy cars, there is an order of priority.
The number one order of priority is actually the name.
When consumers don't know much about something, they always go for the name.
The name is based on the reputation for quality.
Lexus is good quality, but its still not at the top of the tree yet.
2. Styling
The next thing the consumer goes for, is the styling!
Because from 100 yards away, they can see the car, without being able to touch it yet.
This is where the styling of the new 4GS outside and inside, can improve on.
3. Space
Then comes the interior space.
This is where the potential buyer sits inside the car, and they immediately feel the space.
The new 4GS isn't bad for interior space.
Its pretty competitive for head, shoulder and leg room.
It could be a little more generous here esp in leg and shoulder room.
One area where the new 4GS could dramatically improve upon is the poor rear foot space!
The new 4GS boot at some 520 liters is actually the biggest in its class.
4. Engine
Chronologically, the next step, the consumer starts up the engine!
Both the old 3GS and the new 4GS is strong on mid-range and top end torque.
However, most average consumers want torque from the bottom.
Thus Lexus needs to improve the bottom end torque of both the 3GS and 4GS.
5. Other Categories
In chronological order, the next categories include:
Chassis: handling and ride.
Refinement
Equipment
Safety
Durability
Environmental Friendliness
Price.
The new 4GS is doing very well in the chassis, and the refinement.
The 4GS handling, ride, and refinement is the best in this class.
Just the new found acceleration noise level of the new 4GS is a controversy; especially at a time when the 5 Series and A6 sport only smaller 3.0 liter forced induction engines which spin more smoothly than a bigger 3.5 liter reciprocating mass.
6. Engine and Chassis Variants?
Adding engine variations like V8's, and 3.0 V6 Twin Turbos will help, but only contribute a little to the overall volume of sales.
Likewise, adding chassis variations like a lower roof line, curvaceous and swoopy four door coupe variant like the Benz CLS, BM 6 Series, and Audi A7 Sportsback, or even next year's 2013 GS 2 door coupe - will help, but again, these will only contribute in small volume to the overall sales.
Btw, the old 3GS was actually a low, curvaceous and swoopy four door coupe!!!
That's why it could not sell in volume.
This type of four door coupe is not well accepted by this conservative category of buyer, both in its swoopy styling, and in compromised interior space.
The old swoopy 3GS formula did work for Lexus in Japan, because the old swoopy 3GS sold alongside a more conventional boxy Toyota Crown.
However, the old swoopy 3GS 4 door coupe formula didn't work on international markets, because we do not have access to the conventional boxy Toyota Crown photographed below.
7. Performance Variants?
Performance variants like making a GS-F will also contribute, but only in a small way.
8. Formula 1 Racing?
Presently, Toyota's greatest financial investment is in participating in Formula 1, and so far, F1 has contributed little to Toyota or Lexus sales.
The new Lexus 4GS brochure doesn't even have any information regarding Toyota's F1 involvement in their brochure!
Conclusion
In some ways, Lexus already has much better control of the midsize luxury segment than it thinks, with combined sales of the ES and GS, and this fact needs to be promoted more.
Combining ES and GS midsize luxury sales is obviously very controversial.
The next generation ES recently released should really lift combined sales volumes of ES/GS in the midsize luxo market.
On its own, the key to 4GS success is on the fundamentals of the car, especially in the areas of high priority like exterior and interior styling, space [esp. rear foot space, and to a lesser extent rear leg and rear shoulder room], and bottom end torque, which it needs to improve on.
Thus, if the new 4GS brushes up in these categories, then it will ultimately sell very well, and Lexus will truly have indisputable number 1 control of the luxury market.
This is not only the cheapest, but it is also ultimately the most direct and effective way for Lexus to have number 1 luxury market control, just like Toyota has number 1 entry level control.
Engine, chassis, performance variants, and even F1 Racing involvement will all make small contributions; though at a huge cost.
In particular, F1 involvement comes at a huge cost, while engine, chassis and performance variants are relatively cheaper.
That's my 2 cents anyway.
As a matter of interest, this conventional conservative tall boxy Toyota Crown, combined well with the old swoopy 3GS 4 door coupe design in their domestic market of Japan.
However, international markets did not have access to this Japanese domestic market only Toyota Crown, hence sales of the old swoopy 3GS "4 door coupe" were poor, because the demographics of midsize luxury buyers prefers a more conservative tall boxy design.
The Toyota Crown actually runs on the same platform, and uses the same engine as the Lexus 3GS, but the Crown uses soft and long legged suspension travel.
In other words, Toyota does have many variations in body styles, and many variations of the same platform like the E/CLS, 5/6 Seires, and A6/A7, but they are limited to the domestic Japanese market only.
In the days before Lexus was set up in Japan, the Lexus 1992-97 1GS and 1997-2005 2GS was called a Toyota "Aristo" in Japan.
The Toyota Aristo is the sporting luxury version of the pure luxury Toyota Crown.
Understand that the old 3GS is a low and swoopy 4 door coupe, ala CLS, 6 Series and A7 Sportsback; too radical for conservative tastes in this midsize segment of the luxury market, hence limited sales on its own.
However, if a conventional tall boxy sedan, is supplemented with a low and swoopy four door coupe, then sales and overall image will lift, even if the buyer ends up choosing the tall boxy conservative alternative.
Ditto the image provided by V8, turbo 6, and GS-F alternatives.
However, it does cost a lot of money to produce these variants, even though the sales is still limited.
For market supremacy, it is best to directly improve the new 4GS exterior and interior styling, more rear foot space, improved bottom end torque, and more sound insulation under acceleration...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-02-12 at 11:20 PM.
06-02-12 | 07:43 PM
#102
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 30
From: CA
No it isn't.
You posted the numbers, but it says right there for change -14%
The RX and ES have always been the cash cow for Lexus, and sales of that has traditionally propped up everything else.
To some degree that success is why those models are looked down a little bit here, since they're ubiquitous almost appliance purchases, compared to the "rarified" GS/LS/IS etc etc.
Down 14%(RX) and down 4%(ES) is not well at all....
You posted the numbers, but it says right there for change -14%
The RX and ES have always been the cash cow for Lexus, and sales of that has traditionally propped up everything else.
To some degree that success is why those models are looked down a little bit here, since they're ubiquitous almost appliance purchases, compared to the "rarified" GS/LS/IS etc etc.
Down 14%(RX) and down 4%(ES) is not well at all....
Last edited by raytseng; 06-02-12 at 07:47 PM.
06-02-12 | 08:20 PM
#103
Lead Lap
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,664
Likes: 18
From: TX
No it isn't.
You posted the numbers, but it says right there for change -14%
The RX and ES have always been the cash cow for Lexus, and sales of that has traditionally propped up everything else.
To some degree that success is why those models are looked down a little bit here, since they're ubiquitous almost appliance purchases, compared to the "rarified" GS/LS/IS etc etc.
Down 14%(RX) and down 4%(ES) is not well at all....
You posted the numbers, but it says right there for change -14%
The RX and ES have always been the cash cow for Lexus, and sales of that has traditionally propped up everything else.
To some degree that success is why those models are looked down a little bit here, since they're ubiquitous almost appliance purchases, compared to the "rarified" GS/LS/IS etc etc.
Down 14%(RX) and down 4%(ES) is not well at all....
06-02-12 | 08:26 PM
#104
Lead Lap
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,664
Likes: 18
From: TX
Yeah the 5 is the default pic in class, people buy no questions asked. They also offer more variants as well as the lease specials you mentioned so that helps sales. Now that its based on the bigger 7 series and drives more like an old Lexus I doubt BMW has any intentions to make it lose weight or become unique again looking at the smoking sales figures. Can't fault them at all looking at the numbers they sell it in! FYI they sold 6k 3 serie s models too, so the next higher class car sold like the less expensive model. That is insane. The 5 series sold better than many non luxury vehicles. Its amazing.
528
535
550
5GT
M5
The Lexus strategy will never be the same with the ES around. The 5 series is BMWs biggest deal accounting I believe anywhere from 60-70% of profits.
I think with this 4GS "word of mouth" will help sell the car than the 3GS and I think the bold front end is attracting new buyers to the brand.
528
535
550
5GT
M5
The Lexus strategy will never be the same with the ES around. The 5 series is BMWs biggest deal accounting I believe anywhere from 60-70% of profits.
I think with this 4GS "word of mouth" will help sell the car than the 3GS and I think the bold front end is attracting new buyers to the brand.
When I was a kid, I was very involved in the buying decisions for our family's cars because I was a car nut at an earlier age. I saw a news story recently saying that teenagers are waiting to get their driver's licenses today because cars don't mean anything to them. They have the internet to connect with their friends, so it is not longer about being there with them. I also see the stories about tests on cars that drive themselves and think that maybe the sportiness of the new GS may be the last hurrah!
Last edited by dseag2; 06-02-12 at 08:31 PM.
06-03-12 | 09:09 PM
#105
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,271
Likes: 72
From: New York
Yeah the 5 is the default pic in class, people buy no questions asked. They also offer more variants as well as the lease specials you mentioned so that helps sales. Now that its based on the bigger 7 series and drives more like an old Lexus I doubt BMW has any intentions to make it lose weight or become unique again looking at the smoking sales figures. Can't fault them at all looking at the numbers they sell it in! FYI they sold 6k 3 serie s models too, so the next higher class car sold like the less expensive model. That is insane. The 5 series sold better than many non luxury vehicles. Its amazing.
528
535
550
5GT
M5
The Lexus strategy will never be the same with the ES around. The 5 series is BMWs biggest deal accounting I believe anywhere from 60-70% of profits.
I think with this 4GS "word of mouth" will help sell the car more than the 3GS and I think the bold front end is attracting new buyers to the brand.
528
535
550
5GT
M5
The Lexus strategy will never be the same with the ES around. The 5 series is BMWs biggest deal accounting I believe anywhere from 60-70% of profits.
I think with this 4GS "word of mouth" will help sell the car more than the 3GS and I think the bold front end is attracting new buyers to the brand.
Point is the 5 Series is not outselling the GS because its cheaper to lease, because it definitely is not. And to buy the GS is even CHEAPER obviously.
The main problems with Lexus and the GS is the lack of customization during the order process. I want an FSport RWD - dealer looks at me like I'm from Mars? You want red interior on your Fsport in NY - haha goodluck finding that car. Most dealers get 2-3 Fsports per month. All this publicity by Lexus is pretty much going to waste IMO bec all they have at the dealer are boring AWD GS cars in silver or black.