spwolf

but they are following their own path, just like Audi, BMW and MB have all their own differences. That does not mean that you should like it or that you should buy it, just that they all have their differences.

Everyone would want AMG V8 turbo in M3 as well, is BMW a failure for following their own path with I6 turbo? Everyone would like GS chassis on M5, is BMW a failure for following their own path?

it goes both ways.

Vladi

As far as the engines go they wanted to milk the profits as much as they could. That's too obvious.
Its also obvious they couldn't foresee the turbo era coming and tried to get ready for it especially for 2.5 V6 replacement. That NX engine should have debuted with IS but I would go even further and say it should have happened with new GS. Were they really desperate to get rid of all 4GR-FSE inventory that is now 11 (eleven!) years old? That's not called accounting that is called pure madness and crippling your own product long term for short term gain. If they had the turbo ready for GS, IS and NX it would have been a different story. Icing on the cake would have been the refreshed CT with 200t option as well. This was just a scenario for a 4GR-FSE replacement, the engine that should have not existed in this decade.

obturator

The problem is those cars meet the spec in their respective segments. Lexus is lazy with their engines. Tried and true has become dated and boring, I guess a stereotype Lexus can't get away from. Lexus is so content with always depending on their reliability card that they will never push the envelope. Design is definitely more exciting and polarizing but that's just lipstick on a pig. I guess if your car looks like it can go fast, then that's all that matters. Some might say specs aren't everything. I say in this segment, it's all about image, prestige, and bragging rights. You don't need to be the best, you just need to be in the conversation. If the F brand wants to be respected, it must at least meet the competition and not be left in the dust. Don't get me wrong. This car is still amazing....if it was named the GS 500 F sport or RCF sedan.

Marklouis

On the subject of Lexus powertrains, are they so proud (conservative) of the current designs that they believe them to be a better product than the competitors, even though they have much lower power ratings compared with some other car brands?

Where is the threshold mark placed on the graph for the current Lexus high end powertrains? It may be favored more on the longevity plane and less on the performance/horsepower peak based on the overall formula for the current Lexus buyers market.

You have to ask what drives the direction they take for the deciding factors in the designs of these vehicles before we just assume they are not putting enough research in one area or the other. Remember, Lexus is still fairly young in this field compared to other car brands, and they are slowly attracting more younger performance minded drivers.

As the market grows for luxury high end performance buyers so will the F brand for Lexus. I'm sure they have floated over the concept many times, "Is a competitively priced 700hp luxury beast from Lexus a high risk?" Damn right, and a risk that would be worth it in our eyes for sure. They just have to man up and do it to catch up to the fierce competition.

RNM GS3

How exactly is Lexus following its own path?????

They are following in the footsteps of the Germans as usual by copying them.
They finally brought out a turbo 4cyl, years after the Germans had theirs.
If u dont think that turbo 6 and 8cyl are next for Lexus prob when new LS comes out, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Gojirra99

I don't think you can overemphasize how valuable a brand name/logo is to almost any product and every company should cultivate it with the utmost care.
Once you succeeded in planting a respected brand image into the psych of the public, that line of products could benefit from it for decades to come just on that image/ goodwill alone, even if the product itself may not always stand out against the competition.

RNM GS3

We need to stop making excuses for Lexus - they have a ton of $$$$$ and some GREAT engineers but the corporate culture of Toyota is preventing them from being a truly leading luxury automaker.

Forget the Germans and even Jaguar for a minute.
How is that Cadillac has cars making 640hp and Dodge has cars with 707hp but the mighty Lexus can only muster 467hp. Thats pathetic!

cino

iTrader: (1)

Corvette engineers realized that their mapping is not good for track use, but they still go with it to meet fuel consumption target. It's more about software than flawed hardware. V6TT in ATS-V is the exactly same one in CTS V-sport with different tune, if anything, we should look at reliability of CTS V sport, not Z06.

SW17LS

The answer to that question is that GM and Dodge have high performance motors they can use from other sources. Thats why. Toyota doesn't they have to develop engines for low run niche performance products and thats just not something that is easy for a company like Toyota to do.

I've driven the CTS and the Dodge Charger (not a Hellcat, but a Charger). I don't care if a Hellcat has 700HP, I would never buy one over a GS350...let alone a GS-F. The CTS is okay, but it doesn't appeal to me either...

If all you want is power, than buy a 60,000 700HP Hellcat. But, to me that car delivers driving enjoyment only when accelerating in a straight line and thats not what I want a car to do for me. I don't think a lack of power or older engines is "preventing Toyota from being a truly leading luxury automaker". Power is WAY down the list of desires for me as a consumer, and it is for 95% of Lexus buyers as well. I want it to be smooth and refined, responsive, reliable and feel effortless. Again...sales are up...not down.

If its higher on your list...buy from a different manufacturer...as you have. You can sit around for years and yell for Toyota to be something its not...or you can just buy something and talk about something that is what you want...its out there...you own it.

Mr. Burns

Put that power into context. The Germans and Cadillac (talk about a brand that copies the Germans) achieve it by turbocharging. Turbocharging is not inherently an advanced or even all that sophisticated a technology. You can turbocharge or even twin turbocharge the Lexus 5.0L V8 if you wanted to and get tons of power, and Lexus no doubt has in testing (remember that 600 HP LS-F prototype?). So I don't know why people keep treating forced induction engines as some sort of high end new technology that Lexus is behind the curve in.

Question is: is turbocharging/forced induction right for Lexus? Is the gasoline engine even worth continuing investing in if forced induction has become the most popular route for power/economy?

Is Toyota behind the curve in engine technology because they're not turbocharging? I don't think so. I think they're wrestling with the above questions. Toyota is putting their bet on hybrids and fuel cells, stuff that takes far longer to develop and come to fruition than mere turbocharging of conventional gas engines. They're racing the marathon while others are going for the sprint.

Now the F sub-brand itself also needs to mean something. Is it appropriate to simply copy BMW and MB like Cadillac has done, create a 4300 lb $90k+ sedan with a 550+HP forced induction engine? What would separate "F" from the other sub-brands in such a case, and in an absolutely tiny market segment no less?

Lexus has decided to use naturally aspirated engines as a means to differentiate the sound and feel of their cars from the competition, and this in a sense gives the F sub-brand its own character. An RC-F has an entirely different character than the M4 for example. The blue prints for this were set by the LFA, with its racy NA V10.

Similarly the market segment the GS-F is aimed at is not directly at the M5, E63, CTS-V etc..., and this is smart on Lexus' part. There is more potential in a new segment between the 550i and M5, at around $70k base. The GS-F has more potential for success in this area of the market than it does costing $90k+ and taking the M5 head on. It also gives buyers including yourself more choice. Do you want a 600hp FI sedan? Or will a 460 HP NA sedan for $30k cheaper suffice?

You now have that choice to make, and it's a much more substantial decision than the choice between one $90k FI sedan versus another $90k FI sedan.

RNM GS3

Hows that answer the question?

Dodge spent lots of time and $$$ to develop the Hellcat engine and so did GM with the motor for CTS and ATS and Corvette.
All of those are limited production cars as well.

Lexus has declared that F is their performance brand and they want to be a player in this market.
So when a company makes that statement, you expect them to deliver on it.

If Lexus said we are not interested in performance cars period, then your argument would be valid but that is not the case.

SW17LS

Then buy a Dodge. Lexus has spent a lot of money developing aspects of their cars that GM and Chrysler have not, if what checks the boxes for you is the power...buy the power.

What they said was they were interested in building what their definition of a performance Lexus was. They didn't say they were going to copy what the competition was doing...in fact they said they were not going to do that.

They're telling you what they think that definition is, and it clearly includes NA engines with less focus on total power output. Obviously that doesn't appeal to you...but I'm not sure why your opinion is the one thats the most meaningful. Lexus has enough buyers and fans that they don't need to concentrate on capturing buyers from other manufacturers. While I agree they should have increased the output for the GS-F over the RC-F even if it was only slightly, I applaud them for doing it their way. Will it sell? We don't know. We know you won't be a buyer...how many times do we need to hear that?

RNM GS3

I completely disagree with you and can GUARANTEE you all of Lexus regular petrol engines will be turbocharged in the next 5 years.

Making a reliable turbo engine is not simple at all.
We are not talking about aftermarket crap that can blow the motor.
Going turbo is a complete change in design and needs to be developed from the beginning.

The 4cyl turbo is not just an aberration, they took time to develop it and will transfer that R&d to the 6&8 cyl engines.

They are just behind the curve.....

Mr. Burns

The German FI engines aren't exactly known for reliability, so are you then chastising Lexus for spending the extra time ensuring the engines meet durability standards before deploying them across the board? GS-F or NX200t, both have to top reliability surveys out of the gate at the end of the day. An X3 or M5 doesn't have that standard to meet.

Regarding the GS-F, I prefer that they kept NA, I wish the power was bumped to 500hp for $75k base, I think that's the ultimate sweet spot in terms of power/price for this segment. If the GS-F becomes successful we might see other brands introduce scaled back lower power super sedans at this price point to compete with it.

cino

iTrader: (1)

GM has way many new technology and development. They always fund universities to research new techs. Powerful engine isn't the only thing GM possesses. Magnetic Ride Control? Color HUD? Electric vehicle? On-Star? continuous development in cylinder De-activation? List goes on...

Some of those are not own by GM, but I doubt most of the tech Lexus uses is own by Lexus.