lonewolf69

Hi Leslie,

The tests that CR performed is extreme/proprietary to CR (maybe the reason WHY they are not showing it to Toyota/Lexus?!? Secret/Conspiracy...?)

At any rate, the 1st gen passed without issue, so I'm quite frankly surprised that the 2nd gen failed??!?? Something definately changed (software update/tolerances for VSC) between 1st and 2nd gen?!? If the 1st gen could pass muster then so should 2nd gen...

LeslieRC

If the tests are proprietary, that would explain some of it. As you say, it's curious and begs the question that the 470s passed this test. I just heard on CNN that Toyota has now ceased worldwide sales of the 460. This is becoming a debacle for the company.

Pearlpower

iTrader: (2)

It is details that are killing this companies rep. We are not talking about exploding motors or trans, wheels falling off, etc. But a simple software fix. I am sure this company does some sort of skidpad testing for their SUV's, especially a new model. Did someone call in sick that day? LeslieSC brings up a good point and is arrogance on Toyota's part to blame? Do they just assume their products will test out fine without actually testing them?
Perhaps the software became glitched when an engineer emailed the final sample to his coworkers from Starbucks?
Who knows. Wonder what model is next?

I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

What parameters, specifically? Did CR ever release that info?

IMO, CR is bringing suspicion on themselves until they release the exact specifications of the test -- exact speed, curve radius, throttle input, steering input, etc. And why will they not cooperate by showing Toyota how they do their test, but instead seem to prefer to keep their name in the headlines along with their somewhat vague Youtube video (lacking the above-mentioned info, or any documented apples-to-apples comparison to other SUVs)? Of course the popular video includes a sales pitch for CR's product at the end.

jimmyford1

While the above could occur, wouldn't your first reaction after removing your foot off the gas is touch the brake? That immediately puts the traction control in effect. The CR test is without any braking. That said, Lexus still needs to reflash the system so it passes the test like the other 90+ vehicles tested.

Pearlpower

iTrader: (2)

I think I will head down to Lexus with my camcorder and ask if I can duplicate the test, just to get their expression on film.

SaniDel

I have already passed on your compliment.

We stopped by our dealership on Thursday and had a face-to-face with our Service Manager. He personally called every customer who has purchased a GX 460 from their dealership, but none of them are interested in 'parking' their vehicle and driving a loaner. Nonetheless, the offer stands if they change their mind. Further, every customer whom he contacted understands the situation, appreciated his call and no one regrets their purchase.

Our Service Manager participated in a conference call with many hundreds of his peers representing Lexus dealerships. Lexus is hard at work to identify, understand and to address the issue, but it is still not certain that there is a problem to solve. If they can duplicate the results reported by Consumer Reports and those results indicate a problem ... well, that remains to be seen!

His opinion is that if there is a problem, it will be solved by a software update, GX 460 owners will get immediate attention, a car wash and a full tank of gas, plus whatever solution is implemented.
Regards,

SaniDel


P.S. Our Service Manager described what Consumer Reports did to their GX 460 as "doing donuts"!

LeslieRC

I don't subscribe to CR and don't have any plans to to do so, so any sales pitch from either the video or media news regarding CR is falling on deaf ears with me. I have, however, referred to CR when I've considered purchases of vehicles, appliances, and electronics as, I am sure, many here have too. The point I was trying to make is, regardless of whether CR's test parameters were available or not, CR has been testing SUVs for roll-over tendency for more than a decade and how is it possible that Toyota, a company as well-heeled, savvy and experienced in the auto industry as it is, did not see this coming. Maybe it was arrogance or maybe they did not test the 460 enough. Indeed, the fact that Toyota has now suspended sales of the 460 worldwide would suggest that CR's test has made a strong point with the company. Facts are facts. CR is in the business of reporting on the reliability, quality, durability, and safety of consumer products. The operative word here being business. CR risks credibility if it blows a call on a product; I suspect that's one reason why they do not accept ads. Toyota is a business too and they risk their credibility by producing and selling their customers unsafe or defective products. I would think, with their brand reputation at risk, that Toyota's first instinct would be to fight anything that is falacious, misleadling, or misrepresenting regarding their products. The fact that Toyota has suspended all sales and production of the 460 would suggest that there is some credibility to the CR report and rating of the 460.

Balooo2

SaniDel
My dealer called today and offered a loaner, full tank of gas etc and the same update you mentioned.
They told me pretty much what I believed to be the case they were waiting for more information from coparate before contacting customers.
I declined the loaner offer for now also.

On another note:
The fact that Toyota is now investigating ALL of its SUV products takes a little heat off the GX460 from a value perspective in my opinion.
This will be fixed and Toyota/Lexus will recover.

I am old enough to remember the Tylenol thing...

gyung

iTrader: (1)

While Toyota is not able to reproduce this yet, my guess the MAIN reason they are suspending sales it because of their previous PR fiasco of doing too little too late. While I do believe there is credibility to the CR report, I'm not sure the "do not buy" label is justified as of now.

These are all my opinions, but my gut tells me CR is doing it more for publicity sake. I mean, look at the video, I'm not planning on driving my GX like that, but it cornered pretty flat for a 4500lbs vehicle regardless. And like Leslie mentioned, the gut reaction of people going into a spin or even a blind corner too fast is dab the brakes. In the CR video it looked like they tried to keep accelerating after lifting off until the delayed computer cut the power.

cwonbe

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/15/t...concerns-as-n/

SaniDel

Not only did Toyota suspend all sales, they did so immediately after publication of the CR report. That is certainly preferable to ignoring, denying or defaming them as CR has established their credibility for testing consumer products, especially automobiles and specifically SUVs. Arguably, CR's tests are more stringent than the reviews published by the automotive press using vehicles provided and prepared by the manufacturers and often with engineers from the manufacturers participating. The fact that CR buys their products anonymously for testing is significant and adds to their credibility.

It is interesting to speculate what Toyota would do in response to a harsh review from the automotive press. Imagine a negative assessment and a "don't buy this vehicle" recommendation from Car & Driver, Road & Track, AutoWeek, Automotive ... etc. Would Toyota take them as seriously as they do Consumer Reports? I think not. For that matter, who would take the automotive press seriously as they are so obviously biased in favor of the manufacturers to whom they pander?

Owners of Toyota products should be heartened by this serious response to criticism from a serious source. Once the criticism is understood and, if necessary, a solution is implemented, CR will rescind their warning, sales will resume and this issue will disappear. In the meantime, consider that CR is also optimistic that Toyota will do the same as expressed in their Car Blog, from which I quote:

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...fety-risk.html


"We hope that Toyota can quickly develop a software update for the stability control system and update current models with revised programming."
Regards,

SaniDel


P.S. In the interest of full disclosure, I am a 2010 GX 460 owner and a long-time subscriber to Consumer Reports, although I no longer receive their print edition as their online version is cheaper, searchable and more useful. I have no intention of canceling my CR subscription ... or of selling my GX!

SaniDel

Even more telling is Consumer Reports' own words about how they tested the GX 460, which was "... pushed to its limits ..."

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...fety-risk.html


I doubt that any GX 460 owner is capable enough, courageous enough ... or foolish enough to do to their vehicle what the CR test driver did. Especially in an emergency maneuver our response is to hit the brakes, not to do what appears was done by their test driver. If the prolonged howl of the tires, the smoke from burning rubber and the distance the vehicle traveled 'sideways' is any indication, it was more of a stunt than a test!

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the GX 460 passed Federal testing standards, Toyota's own testing standards and presumably the standards of other countries as the GX 460 is available world-wide. Consumer Reports pushed the GX 460 "... to its limits ..." and learned what it can do. Frankly, I'm impressed ... but I won't be "doing donuts" with my GX 460 to impress my friends!
Regards,

SaniDel


P.S. What I WILL do is keep CR's video as a favorite in my iPhone to show what the GX 460 can do ... after this is well behind us. ;-)

Luke27617

iTrader: (2)

I have received a call from Lexus today. They have mentioned that they had a call with all Lexus dealers, HQ execs and engineers. Lexus was able to duplicate the problem but it involved high speeds. There were no problems with speeds up to 60 or so miles an hour. They don't have an ETA for a fix, but based on engineers it will involve recalibration of software. Personally I see this as a good news. I remember the frequent patching of software on my 335i BMW. Turbo lag, engine idle issues, etc... This is nothing and meantime my wife enjoys the loaner RX350 which I have refused to buy when shoping for GX460.

Supposly Toyota is already testing a fix and it will be implemented in other models as well (Rav4 & Highlinder)
http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-t...-concerns.html

akfd

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...-suv-test.html

For folks who want to know more about CR's comments on the GX