Quadro

Of course, because he knows what he is talking about.

I thought we already well established that majority of the customers in the US do not need real SUVs and a crossover will fare much better. But it won't be as capable as the current GX (and it doesn't need to, not in the US).

He is not in charge of the US line up. Toyota/Lexus line up does not use regional model, it's globally managed.

SW17LS

The fact of the matter is the lack of a 3 row unibody luxury SUV is really glaringly missing from Lexus' lineup. If they can sell 45,000 Infiniti JX35's a year...Lexus could do astoundingly well in this segment...far better than they are doing with the GX.

I've driven several JX's, its not a bad vehicle but its awkward looking, a little awkward inside, devoid of any driving enjoyment with the CVT. What it does very well though is move people. Its roomy, comfortable, easy to drive, and has THE best third row seat of any vehicle anywhere outside of a minivan. I'm 6" tall and I can sit comfortably in the third row of a JX.

Lexus could build a great vehicle in this segment. Hopefully they will choose to go the route of the Jeep and LR4/Range Rover and make something that is still substantial and capable though instead of going the overgrown station wagon route.

SW17LS

What I was getting at is that he's biased. He's also speaking from a global perspective, not a US specific perspective.

Thats where we disagree. Seeing that there are numerous unibody SUVs that have higher tow ratings, better interior room, better onroad manners, and are better offroad (i.e. have beaten the GX in offroad comparison tests) I would say they absolutely could build a unibody SUV that is every bit as capable as the GX offroad and in towing scenarios, and certainly more capable onroad.

That doesn't mean they will, because as you said it doesn't need to be as capable in the US market, but other manufacturers are and Toyota surely could.

I understand that, but his comment gives us a window into the mindset of the upper management of Toyota when it comes to this issue. You can't discount his comment because its not what you'd like to hear, the man is President of Toyota USA. He's not some guy on the line.

Quadro

I don't think so. This guy has to run the line up globally which means producing vehicles that customers want to buy worldwide, not in the specific markets, be it US or China or whatever.

I don't know anything about you but chances are a chief engineer knows something about how to build proper SUVs.

You have nothing real to back this statement up. By real I mean real use by real owners who need great off-road and durable vehicles. You know Jeep has a great Grand Cherokee in the dunes picture on their UAE web site, it doesn't mean it can really go there, otherwise you'd see them out there. Let me show you a picture of what people really drive there (burrowed from https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...by-toyota.html



Find me a single unibody Jeep (or any other unibody SUV) in there.

SW17LS

The chief engineer does not run the line. He engineers the vehicles. As we have discussed, Toyota has many models that are only sold in specific markets, both in the NA market and other markets worldwide. Different types of vehicles are popular in different markets.

I'm sure he does, but he doesn't know anything about market demand or market trends, thats what the President of Toyota USA knows about.

I have posted a great deal to back that statement up. I've posted videos of them being used, I've invited you to check out the several large Jeep forums full of people using their vehicles offroad, the same communities are out there for Land Rover. I posted a Motor Trend review where the GX, GL and LR4 were tested offroad...the GX did not win. Just today I was reading a thread on my Jeep forum about a guy in the UAE out driving his GC in the dunes, he had pictures and video. The vehicles ARE out there being used successfully offroad and for towing and have been for years, you just refuse to believe it, continuing to try and convince you is a waste of time. Its all out there on the Internet for you to discover for yourself.

I don't know how many times I have to say it...I don't care about what people drive in other countries. I don't have to drive in a desert, I don't have to fight in a civil war. I live in the US. Toyota and other manufacturers develop many other models just for the NA market...they need to do the same thing in this segment if they want to sell vehicles at the volumes their competitors do. The consumer here doesn't want these vehicles anymore. That is plainly obvious just by looking at the sales figures. The GX sells less than 1/3rd what it did 8 years ago while unibody and crossover SUVs sales have grown significantly, new models have been introduced, previously BOF vehicles have gone unibody and their sales have in some instances quadrupled (the Explorer and Pathfinder are good examples)..

It is what it is. Are potential annual sales approaching 50,000 units for a $50-$60k three row unibody SUV worth developing a new model off of an existing chassis for Lexus? I think it probably is.

Quadro

You mean videos from Land Rover commercials? Like you seriously believe that a 5 minute commercial put by a manufacturer tells anything about how well car is going to hold up to a constant abuse during multiple years? I've nothing to say.

You claim they are as capable so show me unibody Jeeps being used in the same conditions as BOF vehicles. That is of course unless you believe they wheel their Jeeps even harder... which I doubt.

That's like me saying a single GX sold in the US proves it's a viable vehicle for the US.

SW17LS

There are plenty of user shot and posted videos on Youtube, I posted several, a simple search will uncover hundreds more. You don't just have to take it from the videos, Land Rover/Range Rover is respected all over the world for their ability to engineer a vehicle that performs incredibly offroad. You continuing to act like you've never heard of such a thing is like someone saying Rolex doesn't know how to make a watch, or Victorinox doesn't know how to make a pocket knife. Land Rover has been making offroad vehicles since 1948...Toyota is only 11 years older. Land Rover and off road go hand in hand, SUVs are all they have ever built. Read some reviews...if a Land Rover/Range Rover is included in a comparison test and they put offroad capability at the top of the list of things they are testing...they win.

I have done that, repeatedly.

Quadro

No you have not. You keep reverting to the argument that people in the US don't do things that require proper SUVs.

You know when Toyota/Lexus US president feels about something more than 10 years ahead that's a definitive statement for you. When a guy from Japan in charge of actually building the stuff makes a statement about present time you call him biased. I've nothing else to add.

SW17LS

Then you literally have not read 3/4 of what I've posted on the subject both in this thread and in the other thread. I posted paragraphs and paragraphs with links to videos, pictures, trail journals, etc showing unibody SUVs excelling off road. I'm not going to go to the effort again, you can go back and read what I posted if you want to see how I back up my argument.

Quadro

Well I don't take any of them as a proof that unibody SUVs are used as hard as BOF SUVs and have the same capabilities. Not by a long shot. On top of that I posted enough counter-proof which is far more substantial.

I show you a picture with couple dozens BOF SUVs out in the desert and you counter with some single guy who was brave enough to do the same and god knows if he even continues to do so. Do you have a picture comparable to mine which shows there is a huge owner base in the UAE wheeling their unibody SUVs out in the dunes?

The reason people who need SUVs for military duty don't use unibody is because unibody ain't up to the task. Whether you live in the US, or people in the US don't fight civil wars, have nothing to do with the SUV capabilities we're discussing so I don't know why would you even bring this into the discussion because it's simply irrelevant. You may as well say that Grand Cherokee doesn't get used at the dunes because there are no dunes in the US or you personally is not interested in using it at the dunes.

The reason top 10 places in 2012 Dakar T2 Production class were all taken by BOF SUVs proves unibody have a long way to go. Otherwise you would see them in the results and there should be at least half of them according to you. Well there is none, zero. This is a proof worth more than anything you posted.

You know I tried very hard to find any level benchmark to measure them up. The reason I like Dakar is because it sets cars to compete in the same environment so you can actually compare. The reason I like military duty is because people who pick vehicles have to trust them with their lives so they make sure they get capable and durable machines. Go see what people do with the Land Crusers while bashing in the dunes -- that puts enormous amount of stress on the cars. That's why I use middle east as an example. None of the above shows any significant presence of the unibody SUVs because they ain't capable, not because people in US don't do this.

Any single picture of a single vehicle or 10 minutes video is taken so far out of the context that I don't know how anyone can make anything out of it and that's why I don't take it as a proof of anything. You may as well believe in a pipe dream.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Guys, this is degrading into bickering. If you guys can't bring some new compelling content and details rather than say 'you didn't read what I wrote' then we'll go ahead and close this thread.

Koz

The BOF vehicles will always be made as long as they are used in the commercial world. In the commercial world, easier/cheaper repairs and durability/longevity are paramount.

BTW – Land Rover (since it is being thrown around here) is still the MOST unreliable brand of vehicle made. In addition, the Heep is only two places higher in the ranking!

Koz

SW17LS

No question there. Again, I've said it before, I'm not saying that the Land Rover or the Jeep are better vehicles than the GX, I'm just using them as examples that unibody vehicles can be very capable offroad. I own a Jeep, I can tell you reliability is nothing like a Lexus.

I like my Jeep very much, but its a 3 year and done vehicle, the GX is a keeper.

Then I don't see any reason to continue this exchange. Your "proof" is no different than my "proof", my pictures and videos are no less valid than your pictures and videos. You're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you so I agree with Dave, whats the point in continuing?

tmldds

The only way you two are going to discontinue is to stop posting just like what the moderator asked for.

Koz

We could put this to bed if you are game. I was invited to a Stealer sponsored Land Rover off-road event this coming week-end (in New Jersey). WE can pit all three and see how they do!

Koz