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That's an excellent point. I agree that there has to be a certain level of 'analog'-ness to a vehicle for it to become a 'classic'... today. For now.
To me, the GX does have too many computers as it is, but it's nowhere near the level of the new Tundra, for example. It's still pretty mechanical engine and drivetrain-wise. To me that's enough to have hope. Of course, almost every other car out there are much worse (better, if you're into that kind of thing). I think the GX' main disqualifying features are the model years that lack physical buttons and relies on software counterparts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the head unit on my '22 went dead, would the truck still not function? I'm not sure about other model years.
As for the PCM/ECM/ECU, wouldn't aftermarket (once Toyota/Lexus' is cracked) work? Also, this is the particular part (that I can think of) that I'm referring to when I say "for now". Who knows what the future holds for car enthusiasts trying to hang on to an old '22 GX with regards to computers? All it takes is for there to be way more car enthusiasts in the future than there are enthusiasts that are into vintage planes. Note that the gap in costs between owning the two are noticeably huge.
The aftermarket will find a way. It may not be perfect or even desirable but I doubt in your lifetime there wouldn’t be a solution. You could always see bespoke shops repairing these like you do with vintage radios and such.
The aftermarket will find a way. It may not be perfect or even desirable but I doubt in your lifetime there wouldn’t be a solution. You could always see bespoke shops repairing these like you do with vintage radios and such.
A hundred percent agree. As long as the car is mostly mechanical and analog, in my opinion, it's salvageable. When it comes to computers and embedded proprietary software, it's a 50-50 toss-up as to aftermarket support availability... especially if it's just for enthusiasts.
Great info on the Bronco and issues on new Toyota turbo engines.
Change is good and we should embrace it.
That’s why I went from an FJ to Highlander to GX.
Change is good for you 😆
The aftermarket will find a way. It may not be perfect or even desirable but I doubt in your lifetime there wouldn’t be a solution. You could always see bespoke shops repairing these like you do with vintage radios and such.
... only if there is an economic benefit ... and the electronic components (semiconductors specifically) are even available ... highly doubtful for any vehicle produced in relatively limited numbers, with an even lesser number of "survivors" in the future ... so it's probably the salvage yard option until those parts are no longer available.
A hundred percent agree. As long as the car is mostly mechanical and analog, in my opinion, it's salvageable. When it comes to computers and embedded proprietary software, it's a 50-50 toss-up as to aftermarket support availability... especially if it's just for enthusiasts.
It doesn't even have to be mostly mechanical or analog - the only limitation is money. Engines, while having many different types, ultimately function the same way with the same principles. There are people doing fully standalone ECUs running basically whatever they want. As long as those fundamentals are there (and money), we will be able to run whatever we want for as long as we have the desire.
It doesn't even have to be mostly mechanical or analog - the only limitation is money. Engines, while having many different types, ultimately function the same way with the same principles. There are people doing fully standalone ECUs running basically whatever they want. As long as those fundamentals are there (and money), we will be able to run whatever we want for as long as we have the desire.
That's also very true. I can honestly imagine, for as long as aftermarket ECUs like Haltech (for example), GXes in the future being modded to run off of those with everything else that's unavailable or irreplicable gutted out of the vehicle. Why not?
Eh, I think Hemmings is on to something. Anyway, the whole reason I got a GX was so I didn't have to deal with any hassles. Once it is a hassle to keep running it loses its value to me at least.
Maybe - but I think more likely the LC will be the 'classic'. There are at least 3 times the number GX to LC/LX with around 25k GXs a year sold - perhaps its 8k with LC and LX combined. (plus as easy as it is to a fit about Politicians/Taxes, having spent a fair amount of time in UK/EU it doesn't seem like crazy fuel tax here to me - most which to be fair in the US at least goes to pay for the roads/transportation net etc.).
Having had the terrifying experience of traveling on road in India (which was an amazing experience outside of this), I have zero problem with paying more for safe roads.
Yea but the LC/LX is a much bigger vehicle that may not be very good for a lot of tight trails. Sure it has more power and luxury, but also more expensive to maintain and modify and parts may not be as plentiful since not many were sold relative to the GX/Prado. If the 4Runner is anything to go by, the GX will be more sought after in the future.
Yea but the LC/LX is a much bigger vehicle that may not be very good for a lot of tight trails. Sure it has more power and luxury, but also more expensive to maintain and modify and parts may not be as plentiful since not many were sold relative to the GX/Prado. If the 4Runner is anything to go by, the GX will be more sought after in the future.
Slightly offtopic. Thing is externally the LC and GX aren’t really that much different in measurements. ~192” in length for the GX and ~195” for the LC. Height nearly identical at ~74”. Width is the largest difference with ~74” vs ~78”. The GX has a slight turning circle advantage by ... about 1”.
Comparing a GX to say a Sequoia though would be a massive difference obviously being on the Tundra chassis.
What I find sad is that vehicles are following the path of software / firmware dependent electronics ... where we really do not "own" the vehicle given the manufacturer (example: Tesla) has absolute control and data collection insight ... with all other manufacturers fast following. With Millennials ... and more specifically Gen-Z being perfectly happy with "disposable" devices ... combined with their decreasing interest in driving ... vehicles are headed to being a "rental" or "time share" or "for hire" device.
Back to the Ford Bronco ... if one is interested in a future classic ... for the price, the original 1966-1976 (already a classic) Bronco would run forever given the simplicity and parts availability ... with a new long block crate engine costing about the same as some modern Engine Control Modules ... and would maintain its value over time while being forever unique. For Toyota ... the pre-ECM Land Cruisers would represent the same.
I don’t think GX’s will ever be “real” collectibles but will be sought after as one of the last real trucks. There will always be parts available because besides the engine the Prados are million mile work horses throughout the world and if Toyota doesn’t make the parts someone else will. What makes a old car desirable is nostalgia, 20, 30 years from now someone will want the cool truck his dad or his grandpa used to drive. I always liked late 80’s early 90’s Supras. There’s nothing spectacular about them but when I was a kid one of our neighbors had one and I always thought it was cool. A few years ago I was so tempted by a mint 91 turbo, 5 speed, t tops Supra with low mileage on Autotrader for months for $8,000 second owner private sale. Fast forward to now and the undesirable Supra beat to heck non turbos are going for 20-25K.
I’m not sure if it will be a collectible. I’ve seen Land Cruisers, Prado, Pajero and Patrol in Kuwait and Iraq as service vehicles for most. Some trim levels are more utilitarian than luxurious.
My sample size was based on two OIF tours.
First, a little background-I'm on my 3rd GX. I've owned a 2005 GX470, a 2011 GX460 Premium, and now a 2022 GX460 Luxury.
About 18 months ago I decided to replace my 2011. It was in great shape and had been an outstanding vehicle in every way. I went and looked at a new GX first, but was disappointed in the tech available on it at the time and wanted to try something new. The New Land Rover Defender was out and looked great! In December of 2020 I bought a 20 Land Rover Defender P400 110 HSE (6 cylinder). After owning the HSE for about 8 months, I traded it for a 22 Defender P400 110 X (6 cylinder).
Here are my observations and the reasons I traded the 22 Defender for a 22 GX460 Luxury.
Defender 110 Pros
Sportier on-road handling (It is a unibody so not a surprise here)
Fun to drive off road. Stock clearance and approach angles are excellent.
Cool OEM options, ladder, roof rack, rear cargo dog guard, the most expensive winch ever, (nice, but $6k installed from dealer-crazy) etc. ( I wish Lexus would offer some cool add-ons)
In December of 2020 the GX did not have Carplay. the Defender did + wireless charging. (I'll get into that later)
8200lb rated towing capacity.
Vintage appearance
OEM Class IV tow hitch available
Great forums with enthusiastic and interesting owners.
Defender Cons: (what everyone considering a Defender should know before buying)
$$$$$ The Defender X as I had it equipped was approximately $95k MSRP (US) The GX 460 Luxury with Levinson and Sport Package MSRP was $70,845.
The Defender is a "mild hybrid" but doesn't get significantly better fuel economy than the GX with the V8.
$$$$$ Service my experience with Land Rover dealer service was in two different states. I was charged $330 for an oil and filter change. Windshield wipers, installation of accessories, etc were approximately 35% more expensive than my Lexus dealer.
The 2022 Defender X that I owned had the upgraded Meridian Surround stereo. IMO it is not comparable to the Mark Levinson system especially if you are using Sirius XM radio. The sound quality difference narrows slightly if you are playing music with Spotify through Carplay.
Unlocking driver's door-Land Rover requires that you push a button on the door handle instead of simply grabbing it. This wouldn't be a big deal, but both of the Defenders I owned required pushing the button several times for the driver's door to unlock. I found out later that many Defenders are produced for the UK market and are left hand drive. The sensor for the door locks was not re-positioned at the factory on many units that are right hand drive for the US. This requires a service visit to get the sensor installed on the US driver's side. The GX has had reliable driver's door unlocking since 2003.
Windshield: The Land Rover forum is rife with examples of stress cracked windshields on the Defender. Many of these reports also note that replacement windshields also require a significant wait. There is general public opinion that Land Rover either didn't use the correct quality of glass or the design or installation of the windshield is flawed. I had the Cold Package on my Defender X. It included an in-window de-icer. It worked reasonably well over the winter, but would not order that option again as it distorts oncoming headlights during night driving.
Software bugs: Both of the Defenders I owned had unreliable tech. In my experience, the wireless Carplay cuts off a call OFTEN. Couldn't use it at all. The touch screens on both Defenders were slow to respond and unnecessarily complex and over the air updates are all over the place. Many owners on the forum had different software versions. When an update was released it would often affect other options. About one out of 5 times that I started either Defender there would be an error message of some sort that some type of driver safety function was inoperable. I could dedicate an hour long video on just this subject alone.
Hood Panels: The old Defenders had metal step panels on the hood, (a pretty cool feature). the New Defenders appear to have those panels, but they are plastic and if you stepped on them they would dent your hood. Not functional, purely a design detail.
Rusty Exhaust: If you own a 20 or 22 Defender P400 for a few months you will notice that your exhaust is rusty across the back of the vehicle. Image attached. (no one wants to drive around with a rusty butt)
Reasons I traded my 22 Defender 110 X for the 22 GX460 Luxury
100% Satisfaction with previous (2) GXs and (1) LX.
Fun to drive off-road! (within reason with sport package)
Excellent in the snow.
2022 Upgraded with Carplay!
Dealer service, can't say enough about the difference in ownership experience between Lexus and Land Rover dealers. a. loaner car availability b. friendly staff c. service and parts pricing d. facility e. appointment scheduling, etc.
Parts network. Lexus isn't perfect, (OEM trailer hitch), but they try.
Overall confidence in reliability of the vehicle. Safety systems both passive and active.
Mark Levinson Audio
Full leather seating with luxury package.
Captain's chair availability.
Excellent forum with enthusiastic owners!
VALUE
My 2005 with my dog in the driver's seat.
Last edited by WEBOPS; 07-05-22 at 04:00 PM.
Reason: My 1st GX was a 2005, not 2003.
Congrats that’s a beautiful color combo. Those Rover’s are really cool looking I’ve loved the look since Doug Demuro reviewed his but I see Lexus and Land Rovers as polar opposite’s reliability wise! You won’t look back on this decision in 5 years when all of the gremlins of the Rover start to popping up.
06-07-22, 06:06 AM
