Parallel competitors = Acura TSX and Audi A4
09-24-09, 03:48 PM
#1
Parallel competitors = Acura TSX and Audi A4
The HS has a dilemma.
Most luxury models are sportier V6+ RWD vehicles. But we cannot compare it to such vehicles like the BMW 3-Series, MB C-Class, or even Lexus own IS-Line. Maybe the ES350, but its size and power are beyond the HS.
Then if you go down the scale, you really cannot compare it to the Prius nor Insight (both have much less power with near-zero performance capabilities), and definitely not the Corolla nor Camry (based on build quality alone).
You have to take a look at entry-level I4 FWD cars with approx 200 hp, and I believe the Acura TSX and Audi A4 are most direct competitors of the HS.
Hybrid technology aside, all three provide the same qualities.
However, do you think entry-level consumers will cross-shop between these models?
What other models would be appropriate to directly compete with the HS250h?
DISCUSS.
Most luxury models are sportier V6+ RWD vehicles. But we cannot compare it to such vehicles like the BMW 3-Series, MB C-Class, or even Lexus own IS-Line. Maybe the ES350, but its size and power are beyond the HS.
Then if you go down the scale, you really cannot compare it to the Prius nor Insight (both have much less power with near-zero performance capabilities), and definitely not the Corolla nor Camry (based on build quality alone).
You have to take a look at entry-level I4 FWD cars with approx 200 hp, and I believe the Acura TSX and Audi A4 are most direct competitors of the HS.
Hybrid technology aside, all three provide the same qualities.
However, do you think entry-level consumers will cross-shop between these models?
What other models would be appropriate to directly compete with the HS250h?
DISCUSS.
09-24-09, 03:57 PM
#2
In some ways, possibly like the RX when it first came out (but moreso), the HS is a 'segment-buster' which defies standard classification. That being said, I did think of the TSX as a natural competitor; they have similar dimensions (the HS rear seat is a tad roomier in legroom), but the TSX costs less. Both are FWD, 4-cyl. compact sedans. However the HS has flagship-level tech, the hybrid system, and more unusual looks. The A4 also is a possible competitor, and Popular Mechanics ran a comparo with the 3-series diesel.
Although it is correct to point out that the Prius is a different class in size and power, the affluent Prius-buying category is the target market for the HS...those who have a Tier 1-luxury sedan or SUV in the garage, along with a Prius.
Although it is correct to point out that the Prius is a different class in size and power, the affluent Prius-buying category is the target market for the HS...those who have a Tier 1-luxury sedan or SUV in the garage, along with a Prius.
09-24-09, 07:16 PM
#3
Speaks French in Russian
Volvo S40. I feel that the same people who like the S40, will really like the HS. Ive noticed from working at Volvo in the past that those who purchased the S40 were younger, cared about fuel economy, safety, and good technology at a great price (not like the S40 is cutting edge in anyway, but it can hold its own.)
Saab 9-3. 4-cylinder, around 30k. Easily forgettable car and brand though.
Saab 9-3. 4-cylinder, around 30k. Easily forgettable car and brand though.
Last edited by GFerg; 09-24-09 at 07:22 PM.
09-24-09, 07:17 PM
#4
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Phil great thread. I talked to a bud who sells Acura awhile agao and indeed there is worry the HS will take the sales away from the TSX I-4 model as people that buy that car do care about MPG and the HS trumps it in the Highway and destroys it in city MPG. It also has tons of features the TSX doesn't begin to offer. So I snooped around and read a couple salesmen with similar worries, the HS will take some TSX sales away. They have tons of worries as the V-6 TSX is priced way to high as well and they are already discounting TLs like crazy so the last thing they need is ANOTHER entry into this segment.
The A4 also does offer an I-4 as you stated that gets pretty good highway MPG and again the HS trumps it and offers things the A4 doesn't. The A4 has done really really well with sales this go round and surely some will cross shop as the A4 is a car that appeals to people who think and care about MPG.
We can also include the IS 250 here as well, it is a V-6 but offers the same MPG as those I-4 cars pretty much. Surely some will cross shop the two.
The biggest worry to ME is the HS is NOT a cheap car. I mean its 34-35k to start and 44-45k LOADED. That is now TL SH-AWD money and the S4 starts at 45k.
It seems the HS really will appeal to "techies" and previous hybrid drivers. Those that want fuel efficiency and to have a "rare" vehicle. Since I am now a hybrid owner I didn't buy my GSh just for MPG, but for many other reasons as well I've explained before.
Looking at the rollcall thread, seems PRIUS owners are trading up for the HS.
I guess we shall see!
The A4 also does offer an I-4 as you stated that gets pretty good highway MPG and again the HS trumps it and offers things the A4 doesn't. The A4 has done really really well with sales this go round and surely some will cross shop as the A4 is a car that appeals to people who think and care about MPG.
We can also include the IS 250 here as well, it is a V-6 but offers the same MPG as those I-4 cars pretty much. Surely some will cross shop the two.
The biggest worry to ME is the HS is NOT a cheap car. I mean its 34-35k to start and 44-45k LOADED. That is now TL SH-AWD money and the S4 starts at 45k.
It seems the HS really will appeal to "techies" and previous hybrid drivers. Those that want fuel efficiency and to have a "rare" vehicle. Since I am now a hybrid owner I didn't buy my GSh just for MPG, but for many other reasons as well I've explained before.
Looking at the rollcall thread, seems PRIUS owners are trading up for the HS.
I guess we shall see!
09-25-09, 08:09 AM
#5
It's foreseeable that Prius owners are moving up to the HS.
I think Lexus hit a mark here: being environmentally conscious may not be all about getting the most MPG. It's also about making a car that is made from environmentally conscious materials and methods.
Prius owners in general have the $$$ to upgrade to a Prius to justify gas-efficiency (not for money alone [gas savings negated by higher premium], but for being green). Since they generally have extra $$$ to upgrade, I think the HS would be the next step up...
I think Lexus hit a mark here: being environmentally conscious may not be all about getting the most MPG. It's also about making a car that is made from environmentally conscious materials and methods.
Prius owners in general have the $$$ to upgrade to a Prius to justify gas-efficiency (not for money alone [gas savings negated by higher premium], but for being green). Since they generally have extra $$$ to upgrade, I think the HS would be the next step up...
09-25-09, 08:16 PM
#6
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Phil great thread. I talked to a bud who sells Acura awhile agao and indeed there is worry the HS will take the sales away from the TSX I-4 model as people that buy that car do care about MPG and the HS trumps it in the Highway and destroys it in city MPG. It also has tons of features the TSX doesn't begin to offer. So I snooped around and read a couple salesmen with similar worries, the HS will take some TSX sales away. They have tons of worries as the V-6 TSX is priced way to high as well and they are already discounting TLs like crazy so the last thing they need is ANOTHER entry into this segment.
The A4 also does offer an I-4 as you stated that gets pretty good highway MPG and again the HS trumps it and offers things the A4 doesn't. The A4 has done really really well with sales this go round and surely some will cross shop as the A4 is a car that appeals to people who think and care about MPG.
We can also include the IS 250 here as well, it is a V-6 but offers the same MPG as those I-4 cars pretty much. Surely some will cross shop the two.
The biggest worry to ME is the HS is NOT a cheap car. I mean its 34-35k to start and 44-45k LOADED. That is now TL SH-AWD money and the S4 starts at 45k.
It seems the HS really will appeal to "techies" and previous hybrid drivers. Those that want fuel efficiency and to have a "rare" vehicle. Since I am now a hybrid owner I didn't buy my GSh just for MPG, but for many other reasons as well I've explained before.
Looking at the rollcall thread, seems PRIUS owners are trading up for the HS.
I guess we shall see!
The A4 also does offer an I-4 as you stated that gets pretty good highway MPG and again the HS trumps it and offers things the A4 doesn't. The A4 has done really really well with sales this go round and surely some will cross shop as the A4 is a car that appeals to people who think and care about MPG.
We can also include the IS 250 here as well, it is a V-6 but offers the same MPG as those I-4 cars pretty much. Surely some will cross shop the two.
The biggest worry to ME is the HS is NOT a cheap car. I mean its 34-35k to start and 44-45k LOADED. That is now TL SH-AWD money and the S4 starts at 45k.
It seems the HS really will appeal to "techies" and previous hybrid drivers. Those that want fuel efficiency and to have a "rare" vehicle. Since I am now a hybrid owner I didn't buy my GSh just for MPG, but for many other reasons as well I've explained before.
Looking at the rollcall thread, seems PRIUS owners are trading up for the HS.
I guess we shall see!
Last edited by Terrapin; 09-25-09 at 08:29 PM.
09-25-09, 09:46 PM
#7
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Well, the HS is a nice car but that is about it unless you just have to have a Lexus badge and claim you are saving the planet. To far too many of us, it still screams COROLLA no matter what the real lineage is. It will never be an Audi and Lexus lost many customers by pricing it at least 2-3K more than they could have/should have. It has lots of nice tech features but unless someone just has to have a Lexus, most buyers will run for the Prius which is at least 10K cheaper, has distinctive looks, gets better mpg, and is "more cool". Lexus blew it with the HS IMHO.
Never be an Audi. That is a GREAT thing to a lot of people.
The HS is a car for a certain segment, not for anyone. It will be cross shopped by "some" TSX and A4 owners who have MPG as a priority.
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09-25-09, 10:58 PM
#8
If Lexus priced it at TSX levels they would have a massive waiting list beyond what they have now. But as it stands, they reportedly have to fulfill the flood of Japan orders first.
09-25-09, 11:30 PM
#9
Both are entry level upscale cars tho they lack the panache or pedigree of the Lexus, Acura, and Audi.
EDIT:
Didn't realize someone already proposed the 9-3 and S40. My bad
Volvo S40. I feel that the same people who like the S40, will really like the HS. Ive noticed from working at Volvo in the past that those who purchased the S40 were younger, cared about fuel economy, safety, and good technology at a great price (not like the S40 is cutting edge in anyway, but it can hold its own.)
Saab 9-3. 4-cylinder, around 30k. Easily forgettable car and brand though.
Saab 9-3. 4-cylinder, around 30k. Easily forgettable car and brand though.
Last edited by Hoovey689; 09-26-09 at 01:33 AM.
10-07-09, 07:53 AM
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When I first went looking for a new car, I looked at the Lexus IS, BMW 335i/d and the Acura TSX (and 2008 TLs, can't stand the new Transformer look). I liked nearly everything about the IS except that it felt small. I wrote it off to being used to my old Maxima until I got in the 335 and realized that being 6 feet tall meant I wouldn't fit into the IS. I had a MUCH better experience at the Lexus dealer in New Orleans than either BMW or Acura. The BMW salespeople were pretty uninterested and tried to sell me on the car being designed to take "hairpin turns in the Alps", which would be nice if I were driving there and not a 50 mile commute each way on flat ground. The Acura dealer couldn't find anyone to help me for about 15 minutes and it was 100 degrees outside that day, so I asked if they would be open the next day (4th of July). They said "yes", so I came back the next day to drive a TSX and they were closed! All these dealers are next to each other, but about an hour away from my house, so at that point I decided I wouldn't buy a car from that dealer, although I did go back for a test drive (would have bought in Baton Rouge instead), and the salesperson assumed I was right out of college. He changed his tune a little bit when I told him I was paying cash and ready to buy a car soon, but too little too late.
So at that point, I saw the HS on the Lexus website and emailed the salesperson about when it would be available, and decided to wait at that point. The BMW probably would have been $10,000 more since everything is an option and the TSX $10,000 less (give or take). I drive a lot, so my bottom line was more gas mileage and comfort (HS beat both on these, although the 335 diesel had close mileage on the highway) as well as gadgets. I wish it were a little more fun to drive, but I borrow my wife's Audi TTS when I get that itch. And that Audi (brand new) has already been in to the shop for a faulty wiring harness that caused a problem with the accelerator. The people at the Lexus dealer were so much better to deal with than BMW, Audi or Acura, at least in my area, and that definitely helped sell me.
So at that point, I saw the HS on the Lexus website and emailed the salesperson about when it would be available, and decided to wait at that point. The BMW probably would have been $10,000 more since everything is an option and the TSX $10,000 less (give or take). I drive a lot, so my bottom line was more gas mileage and comfort (HS beat both on these, although the 335 diesel had close mileage on the highway) as well as gadgets. I wish it were a little more fun to drive, but I borrow my wife's Audi TTS when I get that itch. And that Audi (brand new) has already been in to the shop for a faulty wiring harness that caused a problem with the accelerator. The people at the Lexus dealer were so much better to deal with than BMW, Audi or Acura, at least in my area, and that definitely helped sell me.
10-08-09, 11:07 PM
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I can see how Prius owners could possibly "upgrade" you can call it to an Hs250h.
I don't believe people that shop for an Audi A4 will even consider the Lexus. The Audi is known to be a drivers car, as it handles and has "decent" performance for its 2.0T engines. The Acura TSX shoppers are more likely to cross over to the HS because the TSX is more along the lines of the HS (ride, and the 2 being Japanese luxury cars).
The one thing that makes me doubt that there will be any cross shoppers is the fact that it is a hybrid vehicle. I think that its going to pull people out of the Prius, Insight, fusion, possibly IS, and even the small hybrid SUV vehicles. The TSX is also a possibility, but I highly doubt the A4 shoppers will even consider the HS.
Just my opinion
I don't believe people that shop for an Audi A4 will even consider the Lexus. The Audi is known to be a drivers car, as it handles and has "decent" performance for its 2.0T engines. The Acura TSX shoppers are more likely to cross over to the HS because the TSX is more along the lines of the HS (ride, and the 2 being Japanese luxury cars).
The one thing that makes me doubt that there will be any cross shoppers is the fact that it is a hybrid vehicle. I think that its going to pull people out of the Prius, Insight, fusion, possibly IS, and even the small hybrid SUV vehicles. The TSX is also a possibility, but I highly doubt the A4 shoppers will even consider the HS.
Just my opinion