Unusual Or Usual Hybrid Behavior, Does the HS hybrid system behave like other hybrids
02-19-10, 05:46 PM
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Unusual Or Usual Hybrid Behavior, Does the HS hybrid system behave like other hybrids
In August of 2005, I bought my wife an RX400h and by the time I bought myself an HS 250h in late December 2009, I figured I was pretty experienced at hybrid cars. So imagine my surprise to discover my car behaves quite a bit differently than my wife's in regards to turn on/off the electric motor and gas engine (hybrid system). My question is, has anyone else noticed strange behavior? How does your car behave.
Here are some of my observations:
1. Any time my car has been turned off, when I turn it back on, the gas engine will always turn on. More than that, the longer the car has sat in "off", the longer the gas engine will run. Here is the best example: in the morning, when I turn on my car to go to work, the gas engine will run for four to five minutes, even if I'm coasting downhill. By comparison, my wife's 400h will coast out of the garage in electric-only mode and won't turn on the gas until she either accelerates or hits a hill.
2. Just to further prove that last point, if I do a lot of short trips, I get terribel mileage. A typical example is to drive from my office 1/2 mile to the post office, stop for 15 minutes, then go to the bank and stop for 30 minutes, then go to lunch and stop for an hour, then go to an appointment and stop for 30 minutes. Each time I restart the car, the gas engine runs for a minute or two, with poor mileage. On a day such as I just described, I will actually average under 20 mpg.
By comparison, if I drive those exact same roads *without* turning off the engine, then the gas engine will only run a few minutes in the beginning and after that it's mostly electric. The result is an average of 39 mpg or so. My best days for mileage are when all my stops are at least 5 miles apart.
3. And just to expand further upon the same point: because the gas engine *always* runs when I first turn on the car, that means I cannot turn on the EV mode when I first turn on the car. Only after the gas engine is "done" will the car let me run EV mode. Pratically speaking, that means that if I spend a few hours inside a mall and come out to the parking lot, I cannot use EV mode to drive around the parking lot, even though I'm going 5 mph.
4. This morning I sat in my car for five minutes in my driveway while making a call. Naturally, the gas engine insisted on running the whole time. What I found strange was that the engine surged for about 15 seconds at one point, for no good reason at all.
5. On the way to my home is a small but steep hill. I have to push the car pretty hard to go up the hill but then I coast down the other side. What I've noticed is that most of the time (but not always), when I coast down the back side of the hill, the gas engine continues to run, giving me lower mileage.
6. Generally speaking, I've noticed a number of times when the gas engine will stay on even though I am coasting. At first I thought this was to recharge the battery, but I checked the battery charge and it was 80% full.
7. Speaking of battery charges, mine rarely goes below 50%. Most of the time it's 50-80%. I've only seen it down to 30% a few times.
In spite of all these complaints, I will say my overall mileage is pretty decent. I get about 35-36 mpg on the freeway and 38-40 mpg in the city. And I know that this is all computer controlled, so the question is, what the heck is that computer doing?
Any comments or observations about your own cars would be greatly appreciated.
Here are some of my observations:
1. Any time my car has been turned off, when I turn it back on, the gas engine will always turn on. More than that, the longer the car has sat in "off", the longer the gas engine will run. Here is the best example: in the morning, when I turn on my car to go to work, the gas engine will run for four to five minutes, even if I'm coasting downhill. By comparison, my wife's 400h will coast out of the garage in electric-only mode and won't turn on the gas until she either accelerates or hits a hill.
2. Just to further prove that last point, if I do a lot of short trips, I get terribel mileage. A typical example is to drive from my office 1/2 mile to the post office, stop for 15 minutes, then go to the bank and stop for 30 minutes, then go to lunch and stop for an hour, then go to an appointment and stop for 30 minutes. Each time I restart the car, the gas engine runs for a minute or two, with poor mileage. On a day such as I just described, I will actually average under 20 mpg.
By comparison, if I drive those exact same roads *without* turning off the engine, then the gas engine will only run a few minutes in the beginning and after that it's mostly electric. The result is an average of 39 mpg or so. My best days for mileage are when all my stops are at least 5 miles apart.
3. And just to expand further upon the same point: because the gas engine *always* runs when I first turn on the car, that means I cannot turn on the EV mode when I first turn on the car. Only after the gas engine is "done" will the car let me run EV mode. Pratically speaking, that means that if I spend a few hours inside a mall and come out to the parking lot, I cannot use EV mode to drive around the parking lot, even though I'm going 5 mph.
4. This morning I sat in my car for five minutes in my driveway while making a call. Naturally, the gas engine insisted on running the whole time. What I found strange was that the engine surged for about 15 seconds at one point, for no good reason at all.
5. On the way to my home is a small but steep hill. I have to push the car pretty hard to go up the hill but then I coast down the other side. What I've noticed is that most of the time (but not always), when I coast down the back side of the hill, the gas engine continues to run, giving me lower mileage.
6. Generally speaking, I've noticed a number of times when the gas engine will stay on even though I am coasting. At first I thought this was to recharge the battery, but I checked the battery charge and it was 80% full.
7. Speaking of battery charges, mine rarely goes below 50%. Most of the time it's 50-80%. I've only seen it down to 30% a few times.
In spite of all these complaints, I will say my overall mileage is pretty decent. I get about 35-36 mpg on the freeway and 38-40 mpg in the city. And I know that this is all computer controlled, so the question is, what the heck is that computer doing?
Any comments or observations about your own cars would be greatly appreciated.
02-19-10, 10:55 PM
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mode for driving
In normal city driving, I mostly use Eco mode. I did extensive testing on a long flat stretch of I-5 and found that at 65 mph using Eco, Power, and regular mode didn't make much difference.
I searched the web and found that Eco mode is mainly intended to modify driver behavior. It apparently limits acceleration and use of AC. In my case, this being winter, I have yet to use the AC (and, in fact, rarely use the heat either). In driving around town, I found the Eco mode helped just a bit in improving mileage. I spent some time without using Eco at all and did only slightly worse. However, there are times when I find turning off Eco helps slightly: climbing a steep hill or accelerating onto the interstate.
Anyway, for all my observations about the hybrid system, I tested it without and without Eco mode and found it didn't just my observations.
By the way, I've only tested the Power mode a few times. The car definitely drives with more spirit in power mode, but I don't usually need power like that.
I searched the web and found that Eco mode is mainly intended to modify driver behavior. It apparently limits acceleration and use of AC. In my case, this being winter, I have yet to use the AC (and, in fact, rarely use the heat either). In driving around town, I found the Eco mode helped just a bit in improving mileage. I spent some time without using Eco at all and did only slightly worse. However, there are times when I find turning off Eco helps slightly: climbing a steep hill or accelerating onto the interstate.
Anyway, for all my observations about the hybrid system, I tested it without and without Eco mode and found it didn't just my observations.
By the way, I've only tested the Power mode a few times. The car definitely drives with more spirit in power mode, but I don't usually need power like that.
02-20-10, 07:52 AM
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Hi benfb,
It sounds to me like you are experiencing the different warmup "stages" of of the HS250h HSD system and the behaviors that go with them. In the "Real MPG" thread on the second page of the thread is an explanation of the stages and how they affect the way the hybrid operates.
Btw ... regardless of the stage ... whenever there is a restart (power on) ... the engine will run for at least a little bit while it re-figures things out (what stage it's in). If it's warm ... its usually no more then 60 seconds. Some have suggested if circumstances allow, and it makes sense ... to leave it in park if the "stop" is for less than 10 minutes. Personally ... I choose not to do this.
Regarding #5 ... one particular anomoly is when the "computer" thinks it's time to switch between the S3 and S4 mode the engine will stay running and give you lower mileage then you would expect because it should be running in EV mode. This is the tell tail sign of the behavior (S3-S4 transition).
The only way to switch from S3 to S4 that I know of is to be stopped and if the engine continues to run for 7-10 seconds and then stops ... the transition to S4 is complete. As a normal part of driving ... I try to force this as soon as is possible (right now it's about 12-15 min in cooler temps). I do this when stopped by "blipping" the accelerator to start the engine ... and wait the 7-10 seconds for it to shut back off ... now you've successfully entered S4 mode. If it shuts off in 3 seconds or so ... it's not ready for the S4 transition yet. Once in S4 ... it will usually stay there for the rest of the "trip".
Sometimes the traffic pattern doesn't allow for it as early as I would like ... but now I have learned what this particular "weird" behavior means. For the first 2 months ... I was really puzzled by the S3-S4 transition behavior and not knowing or understanding what it was.
At speeds over 40-42 mph ... the engine will always be "turning". It may or may not have fuel being fed to it though. This is part of the design of the HSD system.
Hope this helps explain things a little bit and is not too confusing.
It sounds to me like you are experiencing the different warmup "stages" of of the HS250h HSD system and the behaviors that go with them. In the "Real MPG" thread on the second page of the thread is an explanation of the stages and how they affect the way the hybrid operates.
Btw ... regardless of the stage ... whenever there is a restart (power on) ... the engine will run for at least a little bit while it re-figures things out (what stage it's in). If it's warm ... its usually no more then 60 seconds. Some have suggested if circumstances allow, and it makes sense ... to leave it in park if the "stop" is for less than 10 minutes. Personally ... I choose not to do this.
Regarding #5 ... one particular anomoly is when the "computer" thinks it's time to switch between the S3 and S4 mode the engine will stay running and give you lower mileage then you would expect because it should be running in EV mode. This is the tell tail sign of the behavior (S3-S4 transition).
The only way to switch from S3 to S4 that I know of is to be stopped and if the engine continues to run for 7-10 seconds and then stops ... the transition to S4 is complete. As a normal part of driving ... I try to force this as soon as is possible (right now it's about 12-15 min in cooler temps). I do this when stopped by "blipping" the accelerator to start the engine ... and wait the 7-10 seconds for it to shut back off ... now you've successfully entered S4 mode. If it shuts off in 3 seconds or so ... it's not ready for the S4 transition yet. Once in S4 ... it will usually stay there for the rest of the "trip".
Sometimes the traffic pattern doesn't allow for it as early as I would like ... but now I have learned what this particular "weird" behavior means. For the first 2 months ... I was really puzzled by the S3-S4 transition behavior and not knowing or understanding what it was.
At speeds over 40-42 mph ... the engine will always be "turning". It may or may not have fuel being fed to it though. This is part of the design of the HSD system.
Hope this helps explain things a little bit and is not too confusing.
02-20-10, 07:59 AM
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To answer the headline of this thread. the behavior of the HS is similar to both the Toyota Prius (gen II/III) and the Camry Hybrid.
Except ... the computer programming doesn't allow for a usable or sustainable SHM (super highway mode) like the cousin's do.
Except ... the computer programming doesn't allow for a usable or sustainable SHM (super highway mode) like the cousin's do.
02-20-10, 08:09 PM
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In normal city driving, I mostly use Eco mode. I did extensive testing on a long flat stretch of I-5 and found that at 65 mph using Eco, Power, and regular mode didn't make much difference.
I searched the web and found that Eco mode is mainly intended to modify driver behavior. It apparently limits acceleration and use of AC. In my case, this being winter, I have yet to use the AC (and, in fact, rarely use the heat either). In driving around town, I found the Eco mode helped just a bit in improving mileage. I spent some time without using Eco at all and did only slightly worse. However, there are times when I find turning off Eco helps slightly: climbing a steep hill or accelerating onto the interstate.
Anyway, for all my observations about the hybrid system, I tested it without and without Eco mode and found it didn't just my observations.
By the way, I've only tested the Power mode a few times. The car definitely drives with more spirit in power mode, but I don't usually need power like that.
I searched the web and found that Eco mode is mainly intended to modify driver behavior. It apparently limits acceleration and use of AC. In my case, this being winter, I have yet to use the AC (and, in fact, rarely use the heat either). In driving around town, I found the Eco mode helped just a bit in improving mileage. I spent some time without using Eco at all and did only slightly worse. However, there are times when I find turning off Eco helps slightly: climbing a steep hill or accelerating onto the interstate.
Anyway, for all my observations about the hybrid system, I tested it without and without Eco mode and found it didn't just my observations.
By the way, I've only tested the Power mode a few times. The car definitely drives with more spirit in power mode, but I don't usually need power like that.
I've driven all Lexus hybrids and own a GS 450h. I had a HS for 4 days and I didn't notice much difference in the engine staying on except it probably had to b/c it was COLD COLD COLD.
I COMPLETELY agree with your EV mode observation. In my GS 450h, once the battery is charged up it doesn't matter if the car has been off a couple hours or most of the day. I can drive in EV mode right away. I did notice in the HS the engine always did cut on and EV COULD NOT be engaged even if the battery was full after I started the car. I even remember telling my fiance I noticed that.
Maybe it is b/c the batteries in the GS/RX are more powerful compared to the ones in the HS? I have a feeling that may be the reason why.
Overall I just love hybrids and the pros besides the MPG bump.
02-21-10, 12:43 AM
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Hi benfb,
It sounds to me like you are experiencing the different warmup "stages" of of the HS250h HSD system and the behaviors that go with them. In the "Real MPG" thread on the second page of the thread is an explanation of the stages and how they affect the way the hybrid operates.
Btw ... regardless of the stage ... whenever there is a restart (power on) ... the engine will run for at least a little bit while it re-figures things out (what stage it's in). If it's warm ... its usually no more then 60 seconds. Some have suggested if circumstances allow, and it makes sense ... to leave it in park if the "stop" is for less than 10 minutes. Personally ... I choose not to do this.
Regarding #5 ... one particular anomoly is when the "computer" thinks it's time to switch between the S3 and S4 mode the engine will stay running and give you lower mileage then you would expect because it should be running in EV mode. This is the tell tail sign of the behavior (S3-S4 transition).
The only way to switch from S3 to S4 that I know of is to be stopped and if the engine continues to run for 7-10 seconds and then stops ... the transition to S4 is complete. As a normal part of driving ... I try to force this as soon as is possible (right now it's about 12-15 min in cooler temps). I do this when stopped by "blipping" the accelerator to start the engine ... and wait the 7-10 seconds for it to shut back off ... now you've successfully entered S4 mode. If it shuts off in 3 seconds or so ... it's not ready for the S4 transition yet. Once in S4 ... it will usually stay there for the rest of the "trip".
Sometimes the traffic pattern doesn't allow for it as early as I would like ... but now I have learned what this particular "weird" behavior means. For the first 2 months ... I was really puzzled by the S3-S4 transition behavior and not knowing or understanding what it was.
At speeds over 40-42 mph ... the engine will always be "turning". It may or may not have fuel being fed to it though. This is part of the design of the HSD system.
Hope this helps explain things a little bit and is not too confusing.
It sounds to me like you are experiencing the different warmup "stages" of of the HS250h HSD system and the behaviors that go with them. In the "Real MPG" thread on the second page of the thread is an explanation of the stages and how they affect the way the hybrid operates.
Btw ... regardless of the stage ... whenever there is a restart (power on) ... the engine will run for at least a little bit while it re-figures things out (what stage it's in). If it's warm ... its usually no more then 60 seconds. Some have suggested if circumstances allow, and it makes sense ... to leave it in park if the "stop" is for less than 10 minutes. Personally ... I choose not to do this.
Regarding #5 ... one particular anomoly is when the "computer" thinks it's time to switch between the S3 and S4 mode the engine will stay running and give you lower mileage then you would expect because it should be running in EV mode. This is the tell tail sign of the behavior (S3-S4 transition).
The only way to switch from S3 to S4 that I know of is to be stopped and if the engine continues to run for 7-10 seconds and then stops ... the transition to S4 is complete. As a normal part of driving ... I try to force this as soon as is possible (right now it's about 12-15 min in cooler temps). I do this when stopped by "blipping" the accelerator to start the engine ... and wait the 7-10 seconds for it to shut back off ... now you've successfully entered S4 mode. If it shuts off in 3 seconds or so ... it's not ready for the S4 transition yet. Once in S4 ... it will usually stay there for the rest of the "trip".
Sometimes the traffic pattern doesn't allow for it as early as I would like ... but now I have learned what this particular "weird" behavior means. For the first 2 months ... I was really puzzled by the S3-S4 transition behavior and not knowing or understanding what it was.
At speeds over 40-42 mph ... the engine will always be "turning". It may or may not have fuel being fed to it though. This is part of the design of the HSD system.
Hope this helps explain things a little bit and is not too confusing.
One of the scenarios I described was multiple short trips in succession. I need to find a way to get into Stage 4 quickly after each stop. As it is, I stay in Stage 2 or 3 for the first few miles, which is the length of each trip, causing poor results. And I can see there are times when the car somehow transitions from Stage 4 back to Stage 3, causing the engine to keep running for no good reason. I need a way to either prevent that or force a switch back to Stage 4. Your suggestion about stopping and blipping the engine is interesting, but not usually practical (can't stop in the middle of the road).
Given the highly publicized glitches in the Toyota/Lexus programming for brakes, steering and who knows what else, and their reluctance to even admit to these problems much less take action, you have to wonder whether they know about problems in the hybrid software management system and are ignoring those too. After all, no one is going to get killed by getting poor mileage.
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02-21-10, 03:40 AM
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One of the scenarios I described was multiple short trips in succession. I need to find a way to get into Stage 4 quickly after each stop. As it is, I stay in Stage 2 or 3 for the first few miles, which is the length of each trip, causing poor results. And I can see there are times when the car somehow transitions from Stage 4 back to Stage 3, causing the engine to keep running for no good reason. I need a way to either prevent that or force a switch back to Stage 4. Your suggestion about stopping and blipping the engine is interesting, but not usually practical (can't stop in the middle of the road).
Here is a link that may be helpful (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17560) called "A Hybrid's winter survival guide". The Prius II sections will track pretty well to the HS.
Yes ... the "blipping" always has to wait for the next "red light" or stop sign. Btw ... it won't stay in the transition forever (but it sure seems like it at times). Eventually it will revert back to S3 behavior until the next time the computer wants to try the transition. I have found though ... this gives opportunities to figure out how to get the "best" mpg's w/the ICE running. This continues to be very much a work in progress. It's not made any easier due to the different "windows of opportunity" (0-20mph (EV only), 0-40mph, 40-50mph, 50+mph) that the HS has for exceeding EPA mpg's.
Stages S3 and S4 will give good results and are quite manageable. The S3-S4 transition is the only "unpredictable" behavior. I have heard the stages described as S3 is "Tactical" and S4 is "Strategic". Since I have a hour commute each way ... I'm trying for S4 as early as possible.
Hybrids in general have a learning curve of putting together the behavior's in the different modes ... and using the appropriate techniques for the best fuel efficiency in each corresponding mode.
When I first started driving hybrids ... I thought it would be "simple" and just like any other non-hybrid vehicle and easy to get good fuel economy. I have learned that it's not nearly so simple and there is a learning curve that does take time.
Given the highly publicized glitches in the Toyota/Lexus programming for brakes, steering and who knows what else, and their reluctance to even admit to these problems much less take action, you have to wonder whether they know about problems in the hybrid software management system and are ignoring those too. After all, no one is going to get killed by getting poor mileage.
02-21-10, 10:29 AM
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What we are discussing regarding the "stages" of operation, is an intended behavior of the HSD system. I'm not sure how it could be different ... other then the handling (programming) of the S3-S4 transition. The primary goal is to reach "optimum" HSD conditions (engine/coolant/catalyst temps) as soon as possible to allow for the best fuel efficiency.
By the same token, if I know that I'm going to drive a couple of blocks at low speed on even ground from my driveway before climing a hill, I'd like to be able to run EV mode right off that bat, which I can't do right now. My wife's 2006 400h does it, so why am I locked out? These behaviors were all programed into the system, based on assumptions about driving patterns. You probably get such great mileage because of your hour commute. My drive to my office is 18 minutes (I actually live on the outer edges of town and my office is downtown, but it's a small city), so I don't see such a benefit. Those are programmed biases into the HSD controlling software.
One question: have you tried using the Power mode to force transitions? I've been thinking that that should trigger some sort of transition.
02-22-10, 02:27 AM
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I agree that having EV right off the bat would be nice. I also know that the Prius and TCH (camry hybrid) don't allow it either. In lieu of that ... I use EV on the tail end of my trips for the last mile ... knowing that the battery will be recharged during the next warm up stages. I can usually invoke EV after about 5 minutes with current temps in DFW (I try to use it from stop to about 15 mph and then switch to ICE) It takes me about 20 minutes to make back the "warm up" loses in mpg's.
If it's any consolation ... in warmer weather the transitions take place much faster ... maybe 5 minutes or so. In general ... the fuel efficiency will to up as it gets warmer out.
No I haven't tried to use Power mode for forcing transitions. I drive almost exclusively in Eco mode ... as it gives me the most flexibility and ability to get the HS to do what I want it to.
Maybe Lexus will follow the thread and give the ideas some thought?
If it's any consolation ... in warmer weather the transitions take place much faster ... maybe 5 minutes or so. In general ... the fuel efficiency will to up as it gets warmer out.
No I haven't tried to use Power mode for forcing transitions. I drive almost exclusively in Eco mode ... as it gives me the most flexibility and ability to get the HS to do what I want it to.
Maybe Lexus will follow the thread and give the ideas some thought?
02-22-10, 02:31 AM
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I just saw another thread on the warm up stages ... here it is:
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-...ml#post1068435
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-...ml#post1068435
02-22-10, 03:22 AM
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This is another thread on "grill blocking" that might be considered and help w/the warm up issues.
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f...locking-23894/
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f...locking-23894/
02-22-10, 10:37 PM
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I just saw another thread on the warm up stages ... here it is:
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-...ml#post1068435
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-...ml#post1068435
I saw the previous stuff about grill blocking, but didn't seriously consider it. Why have a fabulous luxury sedan and clutter it up with foam blocks? Anyway, I live in the Pacific NW, so usually no real problem with real cold (in fact, this has been one of our warmest winters on record). On the other hand, unlike Dallas, our terrain is fairly hilly, so that impacts my mileage.
02-22-10, 10:48 PM
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I agree that having EV right off the bat would be nice. I also know that the Prius and TCH (camry hybrid) don't allow it either. In lieu of that ... I use EV on the tail end of my trips for the last mile ... knowing that the battery will be recharged during the next warm up stages. I can usually invoke EV after about 5 minutes with current temps in DFW (I try to use it from stop to about 15 mph and then switch to ICE) It takes me about 20 minutes to make back the "warm up" loses in mpg's.
If it's any consolation ... in warmer weather the transitions take place much faster ... maybe 5 minutes or so. In general ... the fuel efficiency will to up as it gets warmer out.
No I haven't tried to use Power mode for forcing transitions. I drive almost exclusively in Eco mode ... as it gives me the most flexibility and ability to get the HS to do what I want it to.
Maybe Lexus will follow the thread and give the ideas some thought?
If it's any consolation ... in warmer weather the transitions take place much faster ... maybe 5 minutes or so. In general ... the fuel efficiency will to up as it gets warmer out.
No I haven't tried to use Power mode for forcing transitions. I drive almost exclusively in Eco mode ... as it gives me the most flexibility and ability to get the HS to do what I want it to.
Maybe Lexus will follow the thread and give the ideas some thought?
02-23-10, 02:23 AM
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It's hard to find any materials or forum threads that exactly match our HS. The TCH is probably closest, then followed by the Prius Gen II and Gen III. In general principles ... they operate fairly similar ... but each has it's own specific behavior. So us HS'ers have to read between the lines and figure out how to apply it to our vehicle. What caught my eye most was
The HS does give you about 8 seconds of EV at power on ... then the engine comes on.
Fyi ... yesterday in DFW was about 41 degrees on the way home. I switched one of the SGII (scangauge II) "gauges" to monitor the coolent tempurature. I drove home as I normally would. I was very surprised by the amount of time it took to warm the coolent temp up and also how quickly it would drop when performing P&G and sitting at stop lights. After about 15 minutes, the coolent temp was only about 160 degrees (optimal is 190). I'm now considering going to Home Depot/Lowes and getting the materials for the "grill block".
I agree that the hilly is hard to get good FE on. Depending on speed ... I use P&G (pulse up ... glide down), DWL (driving w/Load), and "warp stealth" (higher speed glide where engine is turning but no fuel is being used).
Absolutely, there is a night and day difference between Eco and Power mode.
2010 (Gen3) Prius continues the Gen2 preference for emissions control over maximum fuel economy, evidenced by limitations imposed prior to completing warm-up.
Fyi ... yesterday in DFW was about 41 degrees on the way home. I switched one of the SGII (scangauge II) "gauges" to monitor the coolent tempurature. I drove home as I normally would. I was very surprised by the amount of time it took to warm the coolent temp up and also how quickly it would drop when performing P&G and sitting at stop lights. After about 15 minutes, the coolent temp was only about 160 degrees (optimal is 190). I'm now considering going to Home Depot/Lowes and getting the materials for the "grill block".
I agree that the hilly is hard to get good FE on. Depending on speed ... I use P&G (pulse up ... glide down), DWL (driving w/Load), and "warp stealth" (higher speed glide where engine is turning but no fuel is being used).
Absolutely, there is a night and day difference between Eco and Power mode.