Magellan55

Just got back from a trip to Italy, where I had an opportunity to drive a Volvo V50 2.0 diesel for 3 days. While the car itself was not as nice as the HS250, I was thoroughly impressed with the engine and performance. I didn't even realize it was a diesel until the second day. Inside it was very quiet, even at highway speed. Plenty of power - I thought I had a gas turbo engine under the hood that first day. No problem cruising 160-190 km/h with 3 adults/2 children/luggage in the wagon, or passing on hills.

I also noticed that all the cars in the fast lane with me were also diesels

Best part was the fuel mileage - with a mix of high speed (over 100 mph), twisty mountain roads, and city traffic, I used 29.4 liters of diesel over 433 km - equals 35 mpg. That's about what I get in my HS at slower speeds and just me in the car. As an added bonus, diesel is .20 Euro/l cheaper than gas over there (not in the US unfortunately).

Given my driving profile isn't ideal for a hybrid, I'm putting diesels high on the list for my next car if a suitable all-electric isn't available.

LexFather

Nice write-up. Diesels have gotten a lot better and some of the ones in Europe are outstanding.

Lexus will drop their only diesel the IS 220d and focus on hybrids.

acheparev

You get more power and more miles per gallon of diesel, but diesel is also more expensive, so the savings are not as much as they sound.

I would actually prefer a new efficient diesel instead of a hybrid. You get more power for similar fuel efficiency of a hybrid. Problem is, all the diesel options for luxury vehicles are way too overpriced in the US. Hopefully they will come down in price to their gasoline counterparts soon. I don't want to spend $10,000 extra for the same car just because it's diesel.

Argelius

Also, unfortunately, in addition to the inflated prices, the sheer number of diesel choices available in the US is pathetically limited.

I still like my HS, but the longer I'm with it, the more I grow frustrated at its costower:efficiency equation. I don't have buyer's remorse, for I knew exactly what I was getting. However, given that there are a fair number of cars (hybrid, diesel and conventional) that are within striking distance of the 34-35 mpg rating of the HS, for $45K is should have blow-your-socks-off economy (in addition to all the cool gadgets that come with a Lexus). For the same price and content you can get a diesel 3-series that drives like a 3-series and gets better mpg then the HS.

I'm not flaming the HS since, as I said, I remain a contented owner of one. But from a pure financial-economy-performance calculation, it's a hard car to justify. And now that it's off the market indefinitely, because of Pinto-esque fuel tank leaking, I'm not sure I'd recommend one.

tigmd99

For me, diesel is nice, but the fueling stations are not as numerous as i would like. And i don't like to travel without knowing that i can fuel at every station if needed. In addition, with the exception of a few diesel (VW for one), most diesel engines require engine additive every oil change to keep them clean, which does add cost over the long haul. Of course, the companies that make diesel sedans are not known to make low-maintenance car either! (Hint: MB, BMW, and VW.) So, while diesel may match hybrid midsize fuel economy, their longterm costs will likely be more. The ONE diesel that i would buy is whenever Acura/Honda decides to bring its European 4-cyl diesel to the US in the TSX...now, i hear THAT diesel is excellent...and if Acura uses it in the TSX, then you have diesel power AND reliability, something that none of the current diesel makers have.

For a midsize sedan, HS fuel economy is not bad. The upcoming Hyundai Sonata Hybrid gets only 38/40 mpg (city/hwy)...and this is with Lithium PO battery. So, it looks like, at least for now and the next few years, midsize hybrid sedans are stuck on the 35-40 mpg range. So, the HS is not all that bad if you look at it that way.

Canesguy

I agree with you that the HS is far from perfect, especially with the additional concern of excessive fuel leakage in the case of a crash. That being said, the BMW 3 Series diesel is at least $10K more than the HS and the cost of diesel fuel much higher than regular gasoline. As previously noted, BMW's maintenance long-term, promises to be much higher. The Ford Fusion hybrid, for about $10K less than the HS, has better performance and comparable gas mileage to the HS. The degree of refinement and luxury in the Lexus HS partially mitigates those issues. Lexus just better get this recall issue and their quality perception resolved to restore our confidence, and that of the general public, to this marque.

Magellan55

Agreed that the current choices for diesels is limited - though they are better drivers than the HS, they all have horrid reliability records in comparison. A diesel TSX would be nice, assuming they change that ugly nose! I was thinking of an A3 TDI, or maybe Jetta TDI (I know, step down in luxury, but a lot cheaper too). You almost can't compare the HS to the BMW diesel - that thing rockets to 60 mph in 6 seconds flat. Maybe we'll have more choices in a few years.

Also note that the extra price of a diesel model is partly offset by the $1350 fed tax credit on diesels.

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

Looks like we're in the same boat I probably won't be getting anything new in the near future (although I'm eyeballing the CT very seriously) Chances are when I do inevitably change cars it's not going to be a straight gasoline engine. I don't have a family so the A3 TDI and the new CT are my top two possible replacements for the IS with the Prius or Camry/Fusion Hybrid if I were expecting children.

A coworker of mine has a Jetta TDI that's 2-3 years old and it's no louder inside the car than any other gasoline powered car. Diesels have come a long way

mr2fast

why does it have to be diesel vs hybrid?? hybrid just means it's a combination of two systems. Why not go for a diesel hybrid

LexFather

Acura/Honda will not be bringing the TSX diesel here. They are going to follow Lexus with hybrids.

KGenaidy

I'd like to present another perspective. Purchasing either a hybrid or a diesel has added cost. The big difference in the US is the amount of fuel tax on each fuel and the price differences when fuel prices go up again.

When the economy does recover and fuel prices start their upward swing ... diesel in our area will be at least $1/gal more then gasoline. When we hovered at $4/gal w/gas ... diesel was $5. Just to break even on fuel costs ... I figured I would have to get 20% better mileage out of a diesel. In the vehicles I've considered ... the diesel's achieved similar fuel economy .... so I can't justify the additional fuel costs when the economy recovers.

I would like to see a diesel/hybrid also.

Magellan55

Not sure we can assume anything about diesel price differences in the future - a lot depends on refineries etc. So that run up in diesel prices in the US two years ago could have been an anomaly. Certainly the Teamsters lobby will do their best to prevent that from happening again. Heck the run up in gas prices overall was an anomaly, driven by speculators, according to many "experts". I personally believe there was real supply/demand forces behind it, but I'm not an expert :-) I'm guessing most HS owners feel the same way...

Thanks for the other perspectives on diesel logistics - good to think about. A local station carries B20 (20% biofuel) for even more eco-points, but unfortunately Audi/VW only certifies their TDI for B5.

Allen K, IMO the A3 would be a fine choice for a family car with your first kid, unless you plan to have a baby elephant. I'm guessing the CT will be just as versatile. Our family car was a Civic sedan with our first kid, and while the trunk was tight, it did fit porta-crib/bouncy seat/potty/etc for those trips to grandmas. Heck, we lived with a Saab 95 wagon with three kids (twin infants) for a year before finally getting a minivan. IMO, the adage that you need to get a minivan/SUV when you start a family is just marketing bunk. The HS might even work in a pinch, though that trunk is tiny, and lack of back seat pockets for diapers/wipes/shoes/toys/books/etc is a real issue with small children.

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

I wasn't a big fan of the rear seat space in the A3. It wasn't a deal breaker by any means, but I like the additional space to get the kid and all the accompanying junk in without having to work as hard.

As far as fuel prices go, there is a 76 station about half a mile from my house that sells it for less than 87 which also makes a diesel car very appealing to me. But as was said earlier, a diesel hybrid would be awesome

oldcajun

Whether a diesel or hybrid is better suited for you depends on your driving style and where you live. A hybrid excels in heavy traffic stop and go driving. If you live in a large city particularly in warm climates, the hybrid is likely the better choice.

If your driving is mostly highway, you will get little benefit from the current crop of hybrids so the diesel is likely the better choice. In cold weather, the current hybrids have to run the ICE to generate heat for the cabin so are not at their most effecient.

In Europe, the high fuel taxes favored the development of the diesel and their wide use. Last week in Paris, however, I saw lots of Prius taxis and even some private ones. This in spite of the very high EU import duty on Japanese cars. In a conversation with one of the local guys, he thought the Prius was pretty much a luxury car since it was so large inside and so quiet. He considered it as a much higher level that Mercedes B Class or Audi A2 which are about the same price over there.

Steve

tigmd99

Not all hybrids are worst on highways than diesel...here are two tests to prove otherwise:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fuelec.../article.html#

http://www.roadandtrack.com/special_...hybrid-reality