2006 GS hybrid confirmed by Lexus
01-14-05, 05:06 PM
#31
Originally Posted by biker
Yeah, I guess I do come off a bit negative on this particular subject when I think the car companies are trying to sucker people in like the current SUV craze. Europe figured out a long time ago there's a enviromentally friendly way to use less oil and hybrids were not the answer. The problem with the US is that the tree hugging ***** of California virtually dictate what the average consumer gets in the rest of the country. The E320 Diesel was sold out in a few months but god forbid CA allow it to be sold there. 
BTW, the country designator around here is CH.
BTW, the country designator around here is CH.
While Europe has had tougher laws introduced, such as Euro4 emissions, they are introduced gradually and less imposing that US laws. For example, Euro4 emissions are way above that California law and even if NOT met, only penalty is paying more taxes and that comes out to only small difference.
And yes, diesels spend less fuel and are more economical - bigger the car, more the difference, but they are NOT world saviours since they pollute! Plus, price difference is so large that it will take time for that money to come back to you through gas savings.
In fact, new low-sulphur diesel fuel that is needed in new diesel engines will cost more once is avail. in 2006, and extra emission related equipment will cost even more so in 2006 you will end up with price difference that is even bigger.
And while diesels have huge torque, they still dont have it usable in broad range when compared to gas engines... In fact, even V6 diesels are usable only between 2k and 4k maximum, for the price of V8 engine that can pull from anywhere to anywhere...
If the price of gas in US was 3x bigger like in Europe, then it would make more sense but now...
01-14-05, 10:17 PM
#32
Driver School Candidate
Well... looks like they trademarked the model name...
Seems we'll have a GS450h and a GS460 if they follow through:
http://www.auto-report.net/index.html?tm200402.html
And to Biker and Flipside, I think Voltaire (a Frenchie no less) put it best: 'I do not agree with a word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.'" (He's gotta have some American offspring somewhere).
Or if you prefer, in SoCali speak: "Can't we all just get along?" -- Rodney King
Cheers all...
http://www.auto-report.net/index.html?tm200402.html
And to Biker and Flipside, I think Voltaire (a Frenchie no less) put it best: 'I do not agree with a word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.'" (He's gotta have some American offspring somewhere).
Or if you prefer, in SoCali speak: "Can't we all just get along?" -- Rodney King
Cheers all...
01-22-05, 07:23 AM
#34
Lexus Connoisseur
CH is Switzerland.
Lets have constructive new GS and Hybrid Synergy Drive discussions, not hybrid bashing or diesels.
Lets have constructive new GS and Hybrid Synergy Drive discussions, not hybrid bashing or diesels.
Last edited by flipside909; 01-22-05 at 07:29 AM.
01-22-05, 12:14 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by socalpat
Seems we'll have a GS450h and a GS460 if they follow through:
http://www.auto-report.net/index.html?tm200402.html
And to Biker and Flipside, I think Voltaire (a Frenchie no less) put it best: 'I do not agree with a word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.'" (He's gotta have some American offspring somewhere).
Or if you prefer, in SoCali speak: "Can't we all just get along?" -- Rodney King
Cheers all...
http://www.auto-report.net/index.html?tm200402.html
And to Biker and Flipside, I think Voltaire (a Frenchie no less) put it best: 'I do not agree with a word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.'" (He's gotta have some American offspring somewhere).
Or if you prefer, in SoCali speak: "Can't we all just get along?" -- Rodney King
Cheers all...
2004-11-23/US FAIRLANE
2004-07-22/JP
2004-08-30/CA
2004-12-13/US KURAZA Nissan Jidosha K.K. Infiniti crossover concept
that list is definetly accurate. All the above vehicles debuted at NAIAS. The GS350 will go on sale in Japan, and the GS450h was mentioned at NAIAS.
Things look set to get highly charged at Toyota. The company intends to enter the performance saloon market with a family of Lexus models that will all feature hybrid technology.
Engineers are currently working on two machines, one of which will be a new version of the flagship LS. However, first to hit the road will be the GS350 GT, which was unveiled at the Detroit Motor Show. Expected in August 2005 and aimed at the Mercedes E55 AMG, it will mark Lexus' first anniversary of sales in Japan, and sport a 300bhp 3.5-litre V6 mated to a 170bhp electric motor. Offering an astounding 470bhp, the car will feature all-wheel drive and be capable of around 60mpg.
But if you think that sounds impressive, then just wait another 12 months, when Lexus' ultimate hybrid - the LS500 GT - will appear. Combining a 400bhp 5.0-litre V8 with a 200bhp electric motor, the car will offer at least 600bhp and be targeted at the Mercedes S-Class flagship, the S600L.
Thanks to predicted improvements in battery technology, economy of more than 50mpg is expected - double the standards set by traditional petrol engines of equivalent performance.
But the march to bring eco-friendly performance technology to Lexus models won't stop there. The firm's popular IS will inherit a new flagship when it is replaced in 2006. The IS350 GT will offer a tuned version of the 3.5-litre V6 that will be in the GS. However, it's not clear if it will sport a hybrid powerplant, although it may integrate some of the bigger syst***s fuel-saving technology, including engine stop and start systems which save fuel in stationary traffic.
For now, the cost of hybrid technology means it's likely to be reserved for Toyota and Lexus' most expensive models. However, at the Geneva Motor Show this month, one Toyota insider told us that the company was committed to hybrid cars, and that ultimately they will be available right across both ranges.
Peter Lyon
Source: Autoexpress.co.uk
Engineers are currently working on two machines, one of which will be a new version of the flagship LS. However, first to hit the road will be the GS350 GT, which was unveiled at the Detroit Motor Show. Expected in August 2005 and aimed at the Mercedes E55 AMG, it will mark Lexus' first anniversary of sales in Japan, and sport a 300bhp 3.5-litre V6 mated to a 170bhp electric motor. Offering an astounding 470bhp, the car will feature all-wheel drive and be capable of around 60mpg.
But if you think that sounds impressive, then just wait another 12 months, when Lexus' ultimate hybrid - the LS500 GT - will appear. Combining a 400bhp 5.0-litre V8 with a 200bhp electric motor, the car will offer at least 600bhp and be targeted at the Mercedes S-Class flagship, the S600L.
Thanks to predicted improvements in battery technology, economy of more than 50mpg is expected - double the standards set by traditional petrol engines of equivalent performance.
But the march to bring eco-friendly performance technology to Lexus models won't stop there. The firm's popular IS will inherit a new flagship when it is replaced in 2006. The IS350 GT will offer a tuned version of the 3.5-litre V6 that will be in the GS. However, it's not clear if it will sport a hybrid powerplant, although it may integrate some of the bigger syst***s fuel-saving technology, including engine stop and start systems which save fuel in stationary traffic.
For now, the cost of hybrid technology means it's likely to be reserved for Toyota and Lexus' most expensive models. However, at the Geneva Motor Show this month, one Toyota insider told us that the company was committed to hybrid cars, and that ultimately they will be available right across both ranges.
Peter Lyon
Source: Autoexpress.co.uk
01-23-05, 09:47 AM
#36
Pole Position
Originally Posted by biker
Like the GS (and other cars in the class) are not heavy enough already, now we'll throw another 200lbs of potential trouble in for the heck of it.
Like the Accord hybrid - the hybrid addition does not make sense financially (unless Lexus gives it away), performance wise (minimal gains) or enviromentally for that matter (the milage gains are offset by the increased polution caused by the manufacture and eventual disposal by all the batteries). This whole hybrid thing is just a "me-too" marketing gimick that the US consumer is getting hooked on, the same as the SUV craze. You want good performance with great gas milage - get the new BMW 535 (272HP twin turbo I6 diesel that gets 40MPG) - oh yeah - you can't get that in the US.
Like the Accord hybrid - the hybrid addition does not make sense financially (unless Lexus gives it away), performance wise (minimal gains) or enviromentally for that matter (the milage gains are offset by the increased polution caused by the manufacture and eventual disposal by all the batteries). This whole hybrid thing is just a "me-too" marketing gimick that the US consumer is getting hooked on, the same as the SUV craze. You want good performance with great gas milage - get the new BMW 535 (272HP twin turbo I6 diesel that gets 40MPG) - oh yeah - you can't get that in the US.
Another point you do make that I agree with (but it will take a lot more time) is the diesel. I think they are brilliant & the fuel savings are fantastic and more consumers should take at least a closer look at such vehicles. Having said that, the North American market tried that in the 80's & because the technology was not there.......the diesel resulted in horrible failure & masssive reliability problems so folks on this side of the pond are skiddish to go the diesel route again untill the long term reliability is proved.....which I think it will. One must not forget as well that a diesel is more expensive than a gasoline engine, which would seem to justify why consumers pass on the diesel & go for the hybrid! Now the question is, who here would buy a Diesel Lexus?
My self personally.......If I had to choose......I'd still go with the gasoline engine OR the Hybrid. Just my 2 cents. 
Last edited by Lexusfreak; 01-23-05 at 09:50 AM.
01-23-05, 10:03 AM
#37
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Well, there's a reason there'll be an IS220d - Lexus just won't have the sale numbers in Europe until they have diesels. I don't know what bigger diesel they have for use in the GS, but it's needed there too.
The extra cost of the diesel engine is far less than the extra cost of hybrid. I think the GS might be the one car the Europeans might excuse for not having a diesel and opt for a hybrid IF, a big IF, it's paired to an already thrifty engine like the one in the US GS (i.e. 3l V6). Then the milage gains might be big enough to compete with a diesel.
I for one would buy neither a hybrid nor diesel - if I wanted to save gas I'd just the get the smaller engine option on a certain car. One thing that diesel will have going against it (it's already true) is that by the time the clean diesel is available next year it will be so much more than even premium gas, that the savings will be less than anticipated. Outside of the US, diesel is subsidized by way of less taxes.
The extra cost of the diesel engine is far less than the extra cost of hybrid. I think the GS might be the one car the Europeans might excuse for not having a diesel and opt for a hybrid IF, a big IF, it's paired to an already thrifty engine like the one in the US GS (i.e. 3l V6). Then the milage gains might be big enough to compete with a diesel.
I for one would buy neither a hybrid nor diesel - if I wanted to save gas I'd just the get the smaller engine option on a certain car. One thing that diesel will have going against it (it's already true) is that by the time the clean diesel is available next year it will be so much more than even premium gas, that the savings will be less than anticipated. Outside of the US, diesel is subsidized by way of less taxes.
01-23-05, 10:08 AM
#38
Pole Position
I've heard rumours that a diesel option is coming for the next generation IS. 
Again we must wait & see what Lexus does in different markets, but I agree they should at least offer a diesel as a choice. In North America, diesels cost more, we do not get a break on taxes for them. It's too bad.
Again we must wait & see what Lexus does in different markets, but I agree they should at least offer a diesel as a choice. In North America, diesels cost more, we do not get a break on taxes for them. It's too bad.
01-23-05, 10:44 AM
#39
Lexus Connoisseur
A GS Diesel in the North American market will never happen. So why continue to argue the point if it's never gonna flourish to a majority North American CL audience?
01-23-05, 10:47 AM
#40
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by biker
I for one would buy neither a hybrid nor diesel - if I wanted to save gas I'd just the get the smaller engine option on a certain car. One thing that diesel will have going against it (it's already true) is that by the time the clean diesel is available next year it will be so much more than even premium gas, that the savings will be less than anticipated. Outside of the US, diesel is subsidized by way of less taxes.
01-23-05, 10:47 AM
#41
Pole Position
Originally Posted by flipside909
A GS Diesel in the North American market will never happen. So why continue to argue the point if it's never gonna flourish to a majority North American CL audience?
01-23-05, 11:22 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by flipside909
Okay so why argue the point of diesel if you never plan to buy one? In the US, diesel has no tax breaks whatsoever.
really, not even for big diesel commercial trucks??? no tax breaks on those? wow..
01-23-05, 02:12 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by talgrl626
really, not even for big diesel commercial trucks??? no tax breaks on those? wow..
01-23-05, 02:27 PM
#44
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Biker you are forgetting many things.
I live in Eastern-Europe, fresh info from German and UK car magazines:
1. Mercedes plans to add hybrid engine its new S-class lineup somewhe in 2008. Also same thing with new M-Class, hybrid in 2008.
2. Bosch - the largest manufaturer of diesel systems to European car companies (Audi, BMW) has admitted that they have missed the hybrid train and are planning to introduce their first systems in 3-4 years.
3. Porsche is planning to buy RX400h hybrid system from Toyota to its Cayenne, because a diesel engine for Cayenne would not be suitable for Porsche brand.
4. Bob Lutz has admitted that Toyota has beaten everybody in the hybrid game. GM and DaimlerChrysler are developing their own hybrid systems to be introduced in 2-3 years.
One thing diesel worshipers are forgetting, is that hybrid systems are developing rapidly and Toyota has the lead. We do not know yet what mpg number we're going to get from GS450h, but it sure will better than current RX400h numbers. Diesels are also developing nicely, but not taking such huge leaps as hybrid systems. One thing in Europe that might become popular will be diesel combined hybrid system.
Why there will be a Lexus IS220d in Europe? Because European market is very hard to penetrate for Lexus. People there buy local brands which have a long tradition and are part of their culture. With IS220d Lexuse wants to show that it can beat Europeans in their own game offering vastly superior diesel engine compared to BMW, Mercedes and Audi offerings. This diesel engine has more hp per liter and Nm torque per liter than any other production diesel engine in the world(190hp, 400+ Nm, 2.2L). The germans will have to start eating their words and cannot bash Lexus anymore for not having a diesel engine in their lineup.
I live in Eastern-Europe, fresh info from German and UK car magazines:
1. Mercedes plans to add hybrid engine its new S-class lineup somewhe in 2008. Also same thing with new M-Class, hybrid in 2008.
2. Bosch - the largest manufaturer of diesel systems to European car companies (Audi, BMW) has admitted that they have missed the hybrid train and are planning to introduce their first systems in 3-4 years.
3. Porsche is planning to buy RX400h hybrid system from Toyota to its Cayenne, because a diesel engine for Cayenne would not be suitable for Porsche brand.
4. Bob Lutz has admitted that Toyota has beaten everybody in the hybrid game. GM and DaimlerChrysler are developing their own hybrid systems to be introduced in 2-3 years.
One thing diesel worshipers are forgetting, is that hybrid systems are developing rapidly and Toyota has the lead. We do not know yet what mpg number we're going to get from GS450h, but it sure will better than current RX400h numbers. Diesels are also developing nicely, but not taking such huge leaps as hybrid systems. One thing in Europe that might become popular will be diesel combined hybrid system.
Why there will be a Lexus IS220d in Europe? Because European market is very hard to penetrate for Lexus. People there buy local brands which have a long tradition and are part of their culture. With IS220d Lexuse wants to show that it can beat Europeans in their own game offering vastly superior diesel engine compared to BMW, Mercedes and Audi offerings. This diesel engine has more hp per liter and Nm torque per liter than any other production diesel engine in the world(190hp, 400+ Nm, 2.2L). The germans will have to start eating their words and cannot bash Lexus anymore for not having a diesel engine in their lineup.
01-23-05, 02:52 PM
#45
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by Itsuki_23
Biker you are forgetting many things.
I live in Eastern-Europe, fresh info from German and UK car magazines:
1. Mercedes plans to add hybrid engine its new S-class lineup somewhe in 2008. Also same thing with new M-Class, hybrid in 2008.
2. Bosch - the largest manufaturer of diesel systems to European car companies (Audi, BMW) has admitted that they have missed the hybrid train and are planning to introduce their first systems in 3-4 years.
3. Porsche is planning to buy RX400h hybrid system from Toyota to its Cayenne, because a diesel engine for Cayenne would not be suitable for Porsche brand.
4. Bob Lutz has admitted that Toyota has beaten everybody in the hybrid game. GM and DaimlerChrysler are developing their own hybrid systems to be introduced in 2-3 years.
I live in Eastern-Europe, fresh info from German and UK car magazines:
1. Mercedes plans to add hybrid engine its new S-class lineup somewhe in 2008. Also same thing with new M-Class, hybrid in 2008.
2. Bosch - the largest manufaturer of diesel systems to European car companies (Audi, BMW) has admitted that they have missed the hybrid train and are planning to introduce their first systems in 3-4 years.
3. Porsche is planning to buy RX400h hybrid system from Toyota to its Cayenne, because a diesel engine for Cayenne would not be suitable for Porsche brand.
4. Bob Lutz has admitted that Toyota has beaten everybody in the hybrid game. GM and DaimlerChrysler are developing their own hybrid systems to be introduced in 2-3 years.