2006 GS hybrid confirmed by Lexus
#46
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Originally Posted by Itsuki_23
Biker you are forgetting many things.
I live in Eastern-Europe, fresh info from German and UK car magazines:
1. Mercedes plans to add hybrid engine its new S-class lineup somewhe in 2008. Also same thing with new M-Class, hybrid in 2008.
2. Bosch - the largest manufaturer of diesel systems to European car companies (Audi, BMW) has admitted that they have missed the hybrid train and are planning to introduce their first systems in 3-4 years.
3. Porsche is planning to buy RX400h hybrid system from Toyota to its Cayenne, because a diesel engine for Cayenne would not be suitable for Porsche brand.
4. Bob Lutz has admitted that Toyota has beaten everybody in the hybrid game. GM and DaimlerChrysler are developing their own hybrid systems to be introduced in 2-3 years.
One thing diesel worshipers are forgetting, is that hybrid systems are developing rapidly and Toyota has the lead. We do not know yet what mpg number we're going to get from GS450h, but it sure will better than current RX400h numbers. Diesels are also developing nicely, but not taking such huge leaps as hybrid systems. One thing in Europe that might become popular will be diesel combined hybrid system.
Why there will be a Lexus IS220d in Europe? Because European market is very hard to penetrate for Lexus. People there buy local brands which have a long tradition and are part of their culture. With IS220d Lexuse wants to show that it can beat Europeans in their own game offering vastly superior diesel engine compared to BMW, Mercedes and Audi offerings. This diesel engine has more hp per liter and Nm torque per liter than any other production diesel engine in the world(190hp, 400+ Nm, 2.2L). The germans will have to start eating their words and cannot bash Lexus anymore for not having a diesel engine in their lineup.
I live in Eastern-Europe, fresh info from German and UK car magazines:
1. Mercedes plans to add hybrid engine its new S-class lineup somewhe in 2008. Also same thing with new M-Class, hybrid in 2008.
2. Bosch - the largest manufaturer of diesel systems to European car companies (Audi, BMW) has admitted that they have missed the hybrid train and are planning to introduce their first systems in 3-4 years.
3. Porsche is planning to buy RX400h hybrid system from Toyota to its Cayenne, because a diesel engine for Cayenne would not be suitable for Porsche brand.
4. Bob Lutz has admitted that Toyota has beaten everybody in the hybrid game. GM and DaimlerChrysler are developing their own hybrid systems to be introduced in 2-3 years.
One thing diesel worshipers are forgetting, is that hybrid systems are developing rapidly and Toyota has the lead. We do not know yet what mpg number we're going to get from GS450h, but it sure will better than current RX400h numbers. Diesels are also developing nicely, but not taking such huge leaps as hybrid systems. One thing in Europe that might become popular will be diesel combined hybrid system.
Why there will be a Lexus IS220d in Europe? Because European market is very hard to penetrate for Lexus. People there buy local brands which have a long tradition and are part of their culture. With IS220d Lexuse wants to show that it can beat Europeans in their own game offering vastly superior diesel engine compared to BMW, Mercedes and Audi offerings. This diesel engine has more hp per liter and Nm torque per liter than any other production diesel engine in the world(190hp, 400+ Nm, 2.2L). The germans will have to start eating their words and cannot bash Lexus anymore for not having a diesel engine in their lineup.
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#47
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Everyone wants to get on the hybrid bandwagong when they think the competition is passing them by. The main reason Porsche ever made the Cayene is cause the SUV craze in the US - didn't want to be left behind.
I'd venture to guess that quite a few folks would agree that the SUV craze is not necessarily a good thing in the big scheme of things - other than keeping the big 3 afloat.
My main issue with current generation of hybrids is the blind faith some people seem to have that it will magically improve the enviormental/performance problems.
While some advancements will happen, they will be incremental and have higher costs. It is highly unlikely someone will suddenly come up with a system that will get a 3500lb car to 60 in 6 s and get 50mpg.
I'd venture to guess that quite a few folks would agree that the SUV craze is not necessarily a good thing in the big scheme of things - other than keeping the big 3 afloat.
My main issue with current generation of hybrids is the blind faith some people seem to have that it will magically improve the enviormental/performance problems.
While some advancements will happen, they will be incremental and have higher costs. It is highly unlikely someone will suddenly come up with a system that will get a 3500lb car to 60 in 6 s and get 50mpg.
#48
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Originally Posted by biker
My main issue with current generation of hybrids is the blind faith some people seem to have that it will magically improve the enviormental/performance problems.
While some advancements will happen, they will be incremental and have higher costs. It is highly unlikely someone will suddenly come up with a system that will get a 3500lb car to 60 in 6 s and get 50mpg.
While some advancements will happen, they will be incremental and have higher costs. It is highly unlikely someone will suddenly come up with a system that will get a 3500lb car to 60 in 6 s and get 50mpg.
Your issue is far fetched because you're seeing things from your biased points of short term narrow minded views. But then again, you fail to see the big picture in the long run. A home computers and cell phones were once an expensive items in the past, but with improving technology and lower costs to produce these goods, home computers & cell phones are dime a dozen and in a competative market. Anything is possible. No one ever thought cars would ever cost $30k in the early 1900's. You fail to support your arguments with credible info...instead you try to make your arguments as if you were Ralph Nader in a conservative and liberal world. You said it yourself, you would rather have a smaller gas powered vehicle than a hybrid or diesel. If you are looking for that perfect Geo Metro, why do you come here to argue that point in a GS discussion or Lexus forum for that matter?
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Can we get back to talking about the GS and Hybrid Synergy Drive technology instead of hearing you argue about hybrids and why you think diesel's are like the next best thing to sliced bread...and why you will never buy either one of them? I think it's safe to say most everyone here is tired of your contradictory arguments.
Last edited by flipside909; 01-24-05 at 02:38 AM.
#49
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Originally Posted by flipside909
You fail to support your arguments with credible info...instead you try to make your arguments as if you were Ralph Nader in a conservative and liberal world.
#50
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Originally Posted by biker
Everyone wants to get on the hybrid bandwagong when they think the competition is passing them by. The main reason Porsche ever made the Cayene is cause the SUV craze in the US - didn't want to be left behind.
#51
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Originally Posted by biker
My father's '70 Olds Cutlass with a 350 cu in V8 and 2 barrel carburator got 30 MPG on the highway, was probably a 7s 0-60 car.
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#52
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Originally Posted by biker
My father's '70 Olds Cutlass with a 350 cu in V8 and 2 barrel carburator got 30 MPG on the highway, was probably a 7s 0-60 car.
No offense, biker, but I grew up with these late 60's-early 70's vintage cars. I could drive them in my sleep. Your 7-8 sec 0-60 time for a 350-2 Cutlass with a stock manual three-on the tree, three-on-the-floor, or four-on-the-floor is pretty accurate, ( about 8 sec. with the 3-speed Turbo-Hydra-Matic ), but 30 MPG on the highway? Sorry...I just don't believe it unless the carburator was way, WAY lean from a serious mixture-screw, choke, or accelerator-pump malajustment, bad fuel pump, or unless you shut the engine off coasting down some very long hills...which would be dangerous. If the carburator was that lean you would have had some serious trouble with pinging, overheating, hesitation, stalling, backfiring, and burned-up spark plugs. Remember....this was back before you had EFI, breakerless electronic ignition, and engine management computers that could compensate for and constantly adjust f - - ked up fuel mixture and spark timing.
A properly adjusted, serviced, and tuned 1970 Cutlass 350-2 without undue wear on the engine or tranny normally got about 12-14 MPG in the city on leaded 94-octane ( which was considered regular gas in those days......premium 100-octane leaded was usually reserved for the 4-barrel carbs and six-packs ) and from 17-20 MPG on the highway.
If your father HONESTLY got 30 highway MPG from a car like this in proper condition and driving habits, I just as honestly don't see how.
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Last edited by mmarshall; 01-24-05 at 10:49 AM.
#53
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As far as the GS and alternative-powertrains are concerned, given the choice between hybrid gas-electric combos and diesels, I personally think diesels make more sense. Why? At present engineering levels, they offer roughly (not exactly) the same mileage as hybrids but with MUCH less complexity...no dual motors, heavy battery packs, advanced computers /electronics, etc.... and they are much less expensive to produce.
And I have never liked the idea of that huge battery pack behind the rear seat right over the rear fuel tank if it is ever ruptured in an accident or if there is sparking from the batteries near that fuel.
Diesel fuel is becoming readily available at more outlets...not just truck stops. And by EPA mandate we will start to have the clean, Euro-type low-sulfur diesel fuel here in the U.S. starting next year which will help one of the diesel's traditional problems...particulate emissions. Also helping emissions will be new urea-injection systems that engineers are working on. Even without these future advances, today's diesels are much cleaner, more powerful, easier to start in cold weather, reliable, and smooth and quiet-running than the POS diesels of 20-25 years ago that smelled, wouldn't start in cold weather, rattled like marbles, and belched out black soot. Many of those "diesels" weren't even true diesels to start with but converted gas engines....the GM 350 V8 diesel was far and away the worst.
And....today's diesels and turbo-diesels have T-O-R-Q-U-E...in some cases twice the torque of a gas-engine of the same displacement.
Not everyone is going to agree with this, I know, but that is the way I see it.
And I have never liked the idea of that huge battery pack behind the rear seat right over the rear fuel tank if it is ever ruptured in an accident or if there is sparking from the batteries near that fuel.
Diesel fuel is becoming readily available at more outlets...not just truck stops. And by EPA mandate we will start to have the clean, Euro-type low-sulfur diesel fuel here in the U.S. starting next year which will help one of the diesel's traditional problems...particulate emissions. Also helping emissions will be new urea-injection systems that engineers are working on. Even without these future advances, today's diesels are much cleaner, more powerful, easier to start in cold weather, reliable, and smooth and quiet-running than the POS diesels of 20-25 years ago that smelled, wouldn't start in cold weather, rattled like marbles, and belched out black soot. Many of those "diesels" weren't even true diesels to start with but converted gas engines....the GM 350 V8 diesel was far and away the worst.
And....today's diesels and turbo-diesels have T-O-R-Q-U-E...in some cases twice the torque of a gas-engine of the same displacement.
Not everyone is going to agree with this, I know, but that is the way I see it.
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-24-05 at 11:18 AM.
#54
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At present engineering levels, they offer roughly (not exactly) the same mileage as hybrids but with MUCH less complexity
To show how complex new turbo diesels are: (By the way typical BMW - bragging with solutions that were used 10 years ago in twin turbo Supra - sequential turbos, different size, operating one alone or 2 together etc. ): http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cf...e/9/bmw/1.html
quote: Engine electronics required to control a turbocharged power unit are significantly more complex. A system comprising two superchargers, turbine control, bypass and wastegate has to be controlled, and not just a turbocharger with variable turbine geometry. The system elements have to be coordinated with each other and with the respective operating condition of the engine. A highly complex task, which could only be solved using state-of-the-art diesel electronics (DDE 6.0). It provides the required computing power and sufficient storage capacity to deal with processes adequately.
Last edited by Itsuki_23; 01-24-05 at 12:44 PM.
#55
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
If your father HONESTLY got 30 highway MPG from a car like this in proper condition and driving habits, I just as honestly don't see how. ![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
But enough of this hijacking of the thread.
Bottom line is this, if the 450H is 4K more than a GS350 (with same equipment) the milage gains won't offset the higher initial cost during the typical lease period of these cars(assuming $2 gal gas) and if the 450H is within a couple of tenths of the GS460 it will kill the GS460 sales.
Hm, what are the chances that Lexus will have a hybrid only, fully loaded vehicle at the top of the GS food chain?
#56
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Originally Posted by Itsuki_23
Todays diesel engines are more complex than ever, their are engineered to the limit. Diesel engines have been in production for about 100 years, what we are seeing today is very close to the limit diesels can go - diesel fuel itselt starts to limit the possibilities. Hybrid systems are making their first serious steps starting mid 90's - sky is the limit, endless possibilities to combine hybrid systems with any kind of combustion engines.
To show how complex new turbo diesels are: (By the way typical BMW - bragging with solutions that were used 10 years ago in twin turbo Supra - sequential turbos, different size, operating one alone or 2 together etc. ): http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cf...e/9/bmw/1.html
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To show how complex new turbo diesels are: (By the way typical BMW - bragging with solutions that were used 10 years ago in twin turbo Supra - sequential turbos, different size, operating one alone or 2 together etc. ): http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cf...e/9/bmw/1.html
[/I]
The limiting factor with hybrids is the battery pack - advancement there has been relatively slow.
#57
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Originally Posted by biker
The new I6 gas engines from BMW are just as complex. The vvt-i engines from Toyota/Lexus are no simple mills either.
The limiting factor with hybrids is the battery pack - advancement there has been relatively slow.
The limiting factor with hybrids is the battery pack - advancement there has been relatively slow.
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#58
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Originally Posted by biker
But enough of this hijacking of the thread.
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#59
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well, you guys do realize that Toyota is first company with production diesel hybrids? :-)
Start the thought there. Once diesel engines become a bit quieter, cost of dcat systems goes down you will see diesel hybrids in passanger cars as well.
As to performance - lets compare Echo and Prius
Echo weights some 800lbs less
Echo is much smaller
Echo is much much simpler
Echo has stronger gas engine (20 hp more!)
And what happens? Prius gets 10mpg more than Echo, and goes 2 secs faster 0-60 - thats in spite of 800lbs more weight (and size).
What will happen with performance of GS when you battery HSD adds only 200lbs, and engine stays the same? What about considerably better mileage at considerably better performance.
If you look at newly announced GS pricing, you will see that even adding 5k to base GS for HSD (which is a bit too much), it will be still cheaper than V8 option... cheaper, faster, and not only that - compared to V8 weight, it will be only slightly porkier!
What is there to lose? Thats what hybrid systems are right now - high tech, economical way to go FASTER!
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Nothing wrong with diesels - they just are high pollutants though, and that is pretty important. Problem is that price of diesel engine with proper (and expensive cats) would add another 2k-3k to the price hybrid-diesel option and that gets pretty high in that case. Although, way Hybrids operate and their instant power would do wonders for Diesel technology and would eliminate turbo holes found today (dont let reviewers lie to you, every diesel has no power under 1.5k and goes strongly only up to some 3.5k).
Start the thought there. Once diesel engines become a bit quieter, cost of dcat systems goes down you will see diesel hybrids in passanger cars as well.
As to performance - lets compare Echo and Prius
Echo weights some 800lbs less
Echo is much smaller
Echo is much much simpler
Echo has stronger gas engine (20 hp more!)
And what happens? Prius gets 10mpg more than Echo, and goes 2 secs faster 0-60 - thats in spite of 800lbs more weight (and size).
What will happen with performance of GS when you battery HSD adds only 200lbs, and engine stays the same? What about considerably better mileage at considerably better performance.
If you look at newly announced GS pricing, you will see that even adding 5k to base GS for HSD (which is a bit too much), it will be still cheaper than V8 option... cheaper, faster, and not only that - compared to V8 weight, it will be only slightly porkier!
What is there to lose? Thats what hybrid systems are right now - high tech, economical way to go FASTER!
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Nothing wrong with diesels - they just are high pollutants though, and that is pretty important. Problem is that price of diesel engine with proper (and expensive cats) would add another 2k-3k to the price hybrid-diesel option and that gets pretty high in that case. Although, way Hybrids operate and their instant power would do wonders for Diesel technology and would eliminate turbo holes found today (dont let reviewers lie to you, every diesel has no power under 1.5k and goes strongly only up to some 3.5k).