spwolf

um, lexus right now has the most advanced and the cleanest 4cly in the world... so I dont know who suggested what :-)

spwolf

did you notice how after 3k rpm you hit brick wall? while diesels have huge torque, they also have extremly narrow torque range.

And dont get confused with official mpg - when you are not coasting, big turbo big diesels use a lot of fuel.

Autobild had GS450h vs 530d (twin turbo) and latest E diesel, and GS450h actually spent less fuel on the average, was a lot faster in every performance test, and a lot more luxurious... conclusion was that their german brands need hybrids - FAST.

Stevekil

WELL SAID! But my friend we also have to make sure that we do not compare gas-hybrids with diesels in a hurry.

While they must be compared on fuel economy, we must challenge and expect the manufacturers especially Lexus to push for diesel-hybrids:
Diesel hybrids will:

1. Broaden the torque over wider rpm range.
2. Improve the fuel economy of diesels further.
3. Solve/reduce the emissions problems.
4. Improve the performance.
5. The added cost of diesel (extra 3-4 K $) and the added cost of electric module with lithium-ion battery (extra 4-5K$, and hope its does not explode),
can be easily absorbed in a high end model like LS

I would say make a high performance LS with V12 diesel producing 500 hp mated with a 50 hp lightweight lithium-ion battery with 30 mpg combined fuel economy.

It will decisively dominate all the S65 AMGs in the market and give Lexus instant god-like status in europe.

Call it LS 700D-hL

Blackraven

I somewhat agree.... I think.

The 2.2 D-4D Cleanpower engine....you know for the IS220d.

Same as the 2AZ-FE (which is a 170 hp engine) BUT with way more torque and better fuel economy.

Problem is....

Only comes in manual tranny which is NOT something I would want from a high-end brand such as Lexus. Please, this is not a Toyota Yaris. This is a LEXUS for God's sake. Don't give me a manual + handbrake (very unluxurious IMHO). An IS220d with the auto shifter and a Footbrake would be better.

Hope they release an automatic version of it. Hoping for a Japan release next year (since Japan drivers tend to have higher preference for slushboxes)

Nextourer

Well, I'm assuming they have the manual because

a) it's Europe. An automatic is rare
b) the manual can take better advantage of the diesel's torque band

spwolf

except that diesels will forever be rough and not luxurious, and that extra weight + cost of diesel would never pay off.

I simply cant image diesel in LS... its just wrong. And I drive newest generation diesel daily...

encore888

Thx for the clarification, I read 2 reviews of the IS 220d, one glowing, the other less so. So then the diesels Lexus has can match the other Europeans, that's good. I hope we see diesels for other Lexus models then, to help expand in the European market.

Stevekil

I believe if we are a little bug who can sit in the diesel engine, then yes we will find it rough, but if we keep the hood closed and drive while we are inside the car surrounded by leather and more leather and god-like torque under our right foot, then it will feel luxurious.

Do you have any good reason to support the assertion that extra weight + diesel costs would never pay off.

Just wrong? You mean morally wrong, aesthetically wrong, scientifically wrong or just wrong wrong no matter what?!

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

You said diesels add several thousand to the cost of the vehicle and maybe something was lost in translation because I don't think English is your first language, but to me you meant diesel costs several thousand more to manufacture, which I don't think is true.

In Europe diesels cost more to BUY (not make) because they get MUCH better fuel economy, they're extremely reliable, and they keep their resale.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I just spent a week in Scotland riding around in a Peugot 807 "people mover" (7 seat van) which was turbo diesel. It was very smooth and quiet and I would not have known it was diesel by sound/feel/vibration.

I also took 2 fifty mile taxi trips in a Mitsubishi sedan with a turbo-diesel and it was as smooth as any gasoline sedan. From OUTSIDE the car when idling I could hear a *slight* clatter typical to diesels, but other than that, I was impressed.

Well I'd say it's unlikely anyway so we probably don't need to imagine it.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Unless you need a trunk bigger than a lunchbox.

Blackraven

So does this mean that majority European drivers are still stuck to old-school since they don't know anything else but the stick? I hope they get rid of their stick addiction and shift to the slushbox for higher end vehicles. I believe it's the stick that makes the IS220d lose its luster. I mean you get lower-tech tranny + handbrake....WTF?!?!? The IS220d HAS to let go of the stick and switch to faster response electronic trannys (like A/T or CVT or DSG or SMG)

and regarding point letter B, I don't think that is true.

Last I heard, you can only get a BMW 535D with a 6 speed A/T because the torque is waaay too much for old-school stick technology to handle.

So a diesel automatic would make better sense than a diesel manual (except maybe for subcompacts )

Nextourer

Most Europeans do purchase a manual-equipped car. I know for a fact that quite a number of European owners over at PriusChat say this is the first automatic car they've owned. I do think that automatics are catching up fairly quickly in terms of shifting (smoothness as well as quickness) and fuel economy. I still think a handbrake has its place cause it sure as hell easier to do 180s with a handbrake than a footbrake (I know, I know, you'll never do that in normal driving).

Just note there is a difference between a clutchless manual (SMG) vs. a semi-automatic with manual mode (tiptronic, shifttronic, sequential sportshift, steptronic, yadda yadda yadda) even though BOTH transmissions can have paddle shifters.

Stevekil

According to this news report from BBC, toyota is not going to pursue diesel-hybrids.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5387334.stm

The main excuse is costs associated with hybrid + diesel. I tend to believe that this can spell trouble for toyota's leadership in hybrids.

The extra costs can be easily absorbed if a diesel-hybrid powertrain is introduced in LS as a high-end model, like LS 600h L.

In any case, its time to move forward, so I will stop posting on diesel-hybrids for now. Instead I will observe how Toyota handles diesels in general and diesel-hybrids in particular in next 5-10 years.

spwolf

They cost more to build for manufacturers themselves, and many analysts actually speculate that all brands subsidize the cost of diesel engines... ie they make more money on petrol engined cars than diesel.

Average price difference for customer is around $2k for similar engine... You also gain weight with diesel engine.

So when you add that to hybrid technology, you gain even more weight and it is even more expensive... And you get less luxury. For small cars it would be impossible due to price issues as small diesel cars are already way too expensive in Europe, and for large cars you lose one important factor - luxury while you pay more.

If you check that Audi dyno above, that very powerful engine only operates at peak between 1,800 and 3,000 rpm. Compare that to powerful V8 and V10 engines, which use something like 90% of their torque in 3k rpm range.

As to the Autobild - GS450h didnt finish 1st in review of course, but they said it had such superior engine that MB, Audi and BMW have to catch up fast and offer hybrids...