Nauticalx

So I was reading a LS brochure and began to laugh my a$$ off when I came across some details on the LS600hL. Keeping in mind that Lexus hybrids are not particularly marketed to provide more gas mileage than the 'regular model' but rather offer greater performance without being a gas guzzler. I find it laughable that the 600hL has a BIGGER gas engine than the 460. In fact, the 600hL sports a 5 liter engine versus the 4.6 liter 460.

This is hypocrisy at its best particularly because we can easily figure out why Lexus did this. And no it's not for a good reason either. From the 3GS we can tell that the hybrid system adds about 1 liter of performance. (Turning a GS350 to a GS450h). Lexus decided its LS hybrid should have a bigger gas engine bolted onto its electric motor than the regular LS simply because it would be able to name it the 600hl versus merely a pathetic 560hL.

Luxofreak

That is not true. They use a 5.0 engine to keep the same HP/lb ratio the other LS models have. The LS-600h is a heavier car.

Gojirra99

Actually, I don't think the naming is an issue at all. They can still call it LS600hL even if it's still a 4.6 engine instead of a detuned version of the 5.0 (only 389hp from the gasoline engine), they never really have to match the diplacement of the engine to the name, other manufacturers don't always either.

BMW 750i, 550i has a 4.8L engine, they don't call it a 748i/548i, I don't think I've heard much complaining about that.
OTOH, their 325i actually have a 3.0 engine for N.America.
In Europe, they still call the Mercedes S550, E550 the S500, E500 (because they think the European market likes the more traditional S500 name more) despite having the same 5.5 V8 as in N.America. So, the names the manufactures use can suggest both a higher or lower displacement than size of the engine, I don't think there is an unwritten rule that the names have to exactly match up with the displacement, even within the models of the same manufacturer.

Atlas

Seems you are unable to grasp the purpose and messaging around the Lexus LS 600hl. The marketing for the LS600hl is...:" V12 power with best in class V8 mileage and cleanest vehicle in class". Has nothing to do with comparisons to LS460. It's more about comparing MB S600 V12.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

andrew is right on the point on how the engine is tuned (5l engine doesn't mean it's more powerful) and how the idea of v12 comes in

so are you going to say the rx400h is a very "humble" car since it's not called rx430h or rx450h? no.....

don't look too much into the numbers, read the theories behind

encore888

I do think that there is some legitimate criticism as to the environmental credentials of this vehicle; if everyone really wanted to save the planet driving a Prius or some even more advanced vehicle would be the order of the day.

However, I don't have a problem with calling it 600h...5.0L V8 + hybrid system = 600h designation. The whole idea behind the car, as others have said, is to compete with V12 class cars and yet with lower smog-forming emissions, better fuel efficiency, advanced technology. Against those V12s it does this.

LexFather

Great point. Also BMW names their turbos based on what they would be with N/A displacement.
The 335 is not a 3.5 liter engine, its a 3.0 turbo.
Back in the 1970s, the first BMW to do this was the 745. It was a 3.0 I-6 with twin turbos.

Nauticalx

Rob: But Lexus has always named its vehicles according to their true displacement and stated their hybrids perform according to a gas engine operating at a displacement equivalent to the name of the model. The weight difference is not all hybrid motor weight, there is a lot of weight attributable to AWD machinery and interior bells and whistles. I just find it interesting that it sports a larger gas motor and sports V12 performance yet can barely outrun a RWD 460 while offering minimal to no gas mileage benefit.

It seems to me that the GS and LS hybrids offer two different things when compared to their non-hybrid siblings. The GS utilizes its hybrid to increase 0-60 performance while the LS uses its hybrid to provide increased bells and whistles and AWD without increasing gas consumption. The 600h L may produce V12 power but it is slightly misleading because it will not 0-60 like a S600.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

please give me a break, can you get the 760il to have 0-60 numbers of the s600? stop using the s600 for performance comparison for crying out loud. that car has another 2 freaking turbo. that car is fast no doubt, but using that as a "norm" for 0-60 on a v12 is simply misleading.

on the other hand, when you are talking about v12 performance, just talking about 0-60 is plain stupid, coz' that's not where v12 shines. it's the high end pick up where the v12 is really a beast on. floor the car from 80 all the way to 120, that's where the v12 tq comes in.

a lot of v6 (or even v4) is faster than some v8 from 0-60, i guess those v8 are silly as well

look at the big picture

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I think the 600 designation has more to do with targeting the S600 maybe not with raw speed/power, but more in terms of prestige. With the 5.0, it could have been called LS500h or LS550h (kind of in line with GS450h naming) but that would have made it 'seem' equivalent to an S550.

LexFather

Uhhh, the V-12 760 has 438hp, so does the LS 600h L. The Audi has like 12 more hp.
Every magazine has stated Benz is on its own with power. Their TT V-12s and AMG turbos are beasts.

I think when you look at the ENTIRE package, you get so much from 460 to 600h L.
A loaded 460 is 94k
For the starting price of 10k more you get (please correct me if I am wrong)
LED headlights
Leather dash
Escaine roof
CVT Tranny
AWD
5.0 engine not the 4.6
smaller trunk
19" wheels standard

With the GErmans you basically get just an engine for the additional money.


The Lexus hybrids are not the cure to Earth's problems, they are not Enzo beaters. They are new compromises.

I think this is a good thread b/c I read on so many forums people TRYING to put the Lexus hybrids in a box. The traditional box.

You simply cannot, they are worlds firsts and nothing else is like them

Johnny

Lexus has caught the competition napping, and they're a long way from catching up...

Nauticalx

We shall see how the numbers turn out. This is uncharted territory price wise for Lexus. Let's hope they've hit the mark.

Nauticalx

I renew my criticism that the car would have been a better 'Hybrid' keeping the 4.6 intact instead of dropping a 5.0. They only did that to get HP ratings like the V12's yet it will still not perform to those specs of it's competitors. How does a CVT affect acceleration BTW?

Luxofreak

There's no gear change.