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ES300h Gas mileage
#526
Lexus Test Driver
On another note, I've been riding around in an X5 plug-in hybrid recently and the gas mileage has to be seen to be believed. As in it's astonishingly bad.
Sure, it weighs 1300 lbs more than the ES300h, with most of the extra weight coming from the big battery pack. The same kind of careful driving that got me 45 mpg on the ES couldn't crack 25 mpg on the X5 and I couldn't hit the rated 15 miles on purely electric driving. Toyota was right to focus on hybrids and battery electric vehicles - plug-in hybrids are a poor compromise that only make sense on official test cycles, not in the real world.
Sure, it weighs 1300 lbs more than the ES300h, with most of the extra weight coming from the big battery pack. The same kind of careful driving that got me 45 mpg on the ES couldn't crack 25 mpg on the X5 and I couldn't hit the rated 15 miles on purely electric driving. Toyota was right to focus on hybrids and battery electric vehicles - plug-in hybrids are a poor compromise that only make sense on official test cycles, not in the real world.
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jollick (01-01-18)
#527
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2017 ES300h Terrible Mileage
I bought my 2017 ES300h in Oct 2017. After about 4 months I am getting 22.5 MPG in-town driving. I’ve brought the car into service three times, and they have made a few adjustments including rebooting. But the mileage never varies.
Here are the factors I can think of: it’s been a fairly cold Connecticut winter, but it was no different in the warm fall. A lot of my driving around town is about 15 to 20 minute trips. I drive with a very light foot, trying to bump up the mileage, but the car never goes into EV until I’ve driven for over 10 minutes, and then only sparingly. At a traffic light it only goes into EV about half the time unless I think to press the EV button. It’s not clear to me why it does sometimes and not others. Driving, it only goes into EV sometimes when coasting downhill, or creeping along at 10 MPH or less, and then only sometimes.
I’ve noticed that after driving for about an hour on the highway, the car starts using EV more often on city streets. The engine, and maybe battery, seems to need to be *very* warm before EV mode is used the way I think it should. But still not enough to bump up the mileage.
I know my driving style (short trips) is the worst for mileage, but 22 seems completely unacceptable for a hybrid. Anyone have thoughts?
Here are the factors I can think of: it’s been a fairly cold Connecticut winter, but it was no different in the warm fall. A lot of my driving around town is about 15 to 20 minute trips. I drive with a very light foot, trying to bump up the mileage, but the car never goes into EV until I’ve driven for over 10 minutes, and then only sparingly. At a traffic light it only goes into EV about half the time unless I think to press the EV button. It’s not clear to me why it does sometimes and not others. Driving, it only goes into EV sometimes when coasting downhill, or creeping along at 10 MPH or less, and then only sometimes.
I’ve noticed that after driving for about an hour on the highway, the car starts using EV more often on city streets. The engine, and maybe battery, seems to need to be *very* warm before EV mode is used the way I think it should. But still not enough to bump up the mileage.
I know my driving style (short trips) is the worst for mileage, but 22 seems completely unacceptable for a hybrid. Anyone have thoughts?
#528
Lexus Test Driver
Ethanol
How cold does it get over there? Hybrids get worse mileage in winter because the engine has to run more often to warm up emissions control devices and for cabin heat. You could try turning off cabin heat and see if the engine turns on less often.
I get 30-35 mpg when it's below zero C and I'm driving in slow traffic. Gas here is 92 octane with no ethanol. In warmer weather I can get close to 50 mpg under the same traffic conditions. I wouldn't worry about the EV light turning on, drive the car as efficiently as you can and enjoy the ride.
I get 30-35 mpg when it's below zero C and I'm driving in slow traffic. Gas here is 92 octane with no ethanol. In warmer weather I can get close to 50 mpg under the same traffic conditions. I wouldn't worry about the EV light turning on, drive the car as efficiently as you can and enjoy the ride.
#529
Pole Position
I appreciate Chromedome’s perspective, but with the gas blends in North America, especially the northern states, you won’t see the mileage figures he is getting. Most NA fuels now contain Ethanol which harm the mileage, plus our octane figures are lower. However, with that said I still think you should see better mileage.
Keep in mind, there is no magic to a hybrid and you are correct that short cold weather trips are the worst possible scenario for a hybrid. The gas engine has to completely heat up to normal operating temps before it will transition to electric. This is to run the heater (which requires hot water in the heater core) and for safety of your gas engine as you don’t want to strain a cold engine. Now with that said, we have a similar driving style, mostly 15 to 20 minute trips. Our average temp over this winter has probably been 35 to 45 degrees F and our worst tank was just over 33. Last winter when our weather was much colder I don’t believe we dropped below 32. Last winter our NX 300h, which has the same drivetrain as the ES 300h (except it has an electric motor for the rear wheels) became our goto vehicle when the snow was too deep for the ES and the temps dropped below zero. Our worst tank even in those conditions with that heavier vehicle and winter fuel blends was just shy of 30 MPG.
The ES is our third hybrid, and the NX is our fourth. So I am very familiar with their benefits and limitations. In my opinion, there is definitely something wrong with your car. Even in the worst possible conditions, you should be getting 8 to 10 mpg better. In the best conditions (summer with gentle driving in eco mode) it isn’t unusual to get 37 mpg. I have seen 40 MPG but only once. I have seen 38 MPG several times in the 16K miles driven in our ES.
While it shouldn’t account for the huge mileage differences you are seeing, are you sure you are driving in “eco” mode. From you description of the driving characteristics, it almost sounds like the car is behaving as though it is in “Sport” mode. Sport mode is definitely more fun but it has a detrimental effect if you are trying to nurse the best mileage from your car.
Keep in mind, there is no magic to a hybrid and you are correct that short cold weather trips are the worst possible scenario for a hybrid. The gas engine has to completely heat up to normal operating temps before it will transition to electric. This is to run the heater (which requires hot water in the heater core) and for safety of your gas engine as you don’t want to strain a cold engine. Now with that said, we have a similar driving style, mostly 15 to 20 minute trips. Our average temp over this winter has probably been 35 to 45 degrees F and our worst tank was just over 33. Last winter when our weather was much colder I don’t believe we dropped below 32. Last winter our NX 300h, which has the same drivetrain as the ES 300h (except it has an electric motor for the rear wheels) became our goto vehicle when the snow was too deep for the ES and the temps dropped below zero. Our worst tank even in those conditions with that heavier vehicle and winter fuel blends was just shy of 30 MPG.
The ES is our third hybrid, and the NX is our fourth. So I am very familiar with their benefits and limitations. In my opinion, there is definitely something wrong with your car. Even in the worst possible conditions, you should be getting 8 to 10 mpg better. In the best conditions (summer with gentle driving in eco mode) it isn’t unusual to get 37 mpg. I have seen 40 MPG but only once. I have seen 38 MPG several times in the 16K miles driven in our ES.
While it shouldn’t account for the huge mileage differences you are seeing, are you sure you are driving in “eco” mode. From you description of the driving characteristics, it almost sounds like the car is behaving as though it is in “Sport” mode. Sport mode is definitely more fun but it has a detrimental effect if you are trying to nurse the best mileage from your car.
Last edited by TechNut; 02-17-18 at 05:06 AM.
#530
Pole Position
As if my long-winded post above wasn’t enough, another thought occurs to me. It generally only takes about five to eight minutes before our car has warmed up enough that the gas engine will begin cycling off and on. This of course is dependent on ambient temps and the driving mode selected (eco/normal/sport), speed, etc. In extreme cold weather it doesn’t cycle off very often, but you will still see mileage benefits due to the electric motor which is always active if the batteries have a charge.
Again, in my opinion, there is definitely something wrong with your car and the dealer likely knows it. I just can’t imagine how I could possibly drive, even aggressively in Sport mode and get such poor mileage.
Again, in my opinion, there is definitely something wrong with your car and the dealer likely knows it. I just can’t imagine how I could possibly drive, even aggressively in Sport mode and get such poor mileage.
#531
Racer
Thread Starter
I bought my 2017 ES300h in Oct 2017. After about 4 months I am getting 22.5 MPG in-town driving. I’ve brought the car into service three times, and they have made a few adjustments including rebooting. But the mileage never varies.
Here are the factors I can think of: it’s been a fairly cold Connecticut winter, but it was no different in the warm fall. A lot of my driving around town is about 15 to 20 minute trips. I drive with a very light foot, trying to bump up the mileage, but the car never goes into EV until I’ve driven for over 10 minutes, and then only sparingly. At a traffic light it only goes into EV about half the time unless I think to press the EV button. It’s not clear to me why it does sometimes and not others. Driving, it only goes into EV sometimes when coasting downhill, or creeping along at 10 MPH or less, and then only sometimes.
I’ve noticed that after driving for about an hour on the highway, the car starts using EV more often on city streets. The engine, and maybe battery, seems to need to be *very* warm before EV mode is used the way I think it should. But still not enough to bump up the mileage.
I know my driving style (short trips) is the worst for mileage, but 22 seems completely unacceptable for a hybrid. Anyone have thoughts?
Here are the factors I can think of: it’s been a fairly cold Connecticut winter, but it was no different in the warm fall. A lot of my driving around town is about 15 to 20 minute trips. I drive with a very light foot, trying to bump up the mileage, but the car never goes into EV until I’ve driven for over 10 minutes, and then only sparingly. At a traffic light it only goes into EV about half the time unless I think to press the EV button. It’s not clear to me why it does sometimes and not others. Driving, it only goes into EV sometimes when coasting downhill, or creeping along at 10 MPH or less, and then only sometimes.
I’ve noticed that after driving for about an hour on the highway, the car starts using EV more often on city streets. The engine, and maybe battery, seems to need to be *very* warm before EV mode is used the way I think it should. But still not enough to bump up the mileage.
I know my driving style (short trips) is the worst for mileage, but 22 seems completely unacceptable for a hybrid. Anyone have thoughts?
#532
Lexus Test Driver
If you really want to get technical, I'd suggest getting an OBD Bluetooth dongle and using Torque. When the car first powers up, monitor the engine coolant temperature. The engine should go from cold to 40C before shutting off if there's no load. The next phase is for the engine coolant to hit 75C, once it hits that the car should enter EV mode more frequently. If your car isn't doing all this, then there could be a problem.
More info here: http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/five-stages.txt
It's a Prius system primer, our cars are nothing more than large Priuses with slightly larger battery packs
Any engine or hybrid system faults should be logged by the ECU and these would be visible to the dealer. I'd be surprised if they couldn't find a problem with the car.
More info here: http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/five-stages.txt
It's a Prius system primer, our cars are nothing more than large Priuses with slightly larger battery packs
Any engine or hybrid system faults should be logged by the ECU and these would be visible to the dealer. I'd be surprised if they couldn't find a problem with the car.
Last edited by chromedome; 02-17-18 at 06:23 AM. Reason: Grammar
#533
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I bought my 2017 ES300h in Oct 2017. After about 4 months I am getting 22.5 MPG in-town driving. I’ve brought the car into service three times, and they have made a few adjustments including rebooting. But the mileage never varies.
Here are the factors I can think of: it’s been a fairly cold Connecticut winter, but it was no different in the warm fall. A lot of my driving around town is about 15 to 20 minute trips. I drive with a very light foot, trying to bump up the mileage, but the car never goes into EV until I’ve driven for over 10 minutes, and then only sparingly. At a traffic light it only goes into EV about half the time unless I think to press the EV button. It’s not clear to me why it does sometimes and not others. Driving, it only goes into EV sometimes when coasting downhill, or creeping along at 10 MPH or less, and then only sometimes.
I’ve noticed that after driving for about an hour on the highway, the car starts using EV more often on city streets. The engine, and maybe battery, seems to need to be *very* warm before EV mode is used the way I think it should. But still not enough to bump up the mileage.
I know my driving style (short trips) is the worst for mileage, but 22 seems completely unacceptable for a hybrid. Anyone have thoughts?
Here are the factors I can think of: it’s been a fairly cold Connecticut winter, but it was no different in the warm fall. A lot of my driving around town is about 15 to 20 minute trips. I drive with a very light foot, trying to bump up the mileage, but the car never goes into EV until I’ve driven for over 10 minutes, and then only sparingly. At a traffic light it only goes into EV about half the time unless I think to press the EV button. It’s not clear to me why it does sometimes and not others. Driving, it only goes into EV sometimes when coasting downhill, or creeping along at 10 MPH or less, and then only sometimes.
I’ve noticed that after driving for about an hour on the highway, the car starts using EV more often on city streets. The engine, and maybe battery, seems to need to be *very* warm before EV mode is used the way I think it should. But still not enough to bump up the mileage.
I know my driving style (short trips) is the worst for mileage, but 22 seems completely unacceptable for a hybrid. Anyone have thoughts?
Are you sure you are not looking at the average MPH and not MPG? That is also one of the screens displayed on the dash which would make since to be around 22-23 mph.
#534
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Thanks all.
The 22.5 MPG is from two half tank fill ups and computing exact actual mileage each time. Both times the display was saying 24.5. In between the two, the shop foreman at Lexus hooked the car up to a computer, rebooted the car and made some adjustments. Don’t know what he actually adjusted, but it made no difference. And now that I’m writing this, I realize that the weather made no difference either. The first time was that very cold spell in January (teens), and the second time was last week where it was at least 20 degrees warmer: mid-30’s.
So, don’t know what the next step is. This car is not getting much better mileage than my 2010 ES350 — about two mpg better. Btw, I drive in normal mode, not sport or ECO. I really don’t like ECO.
The 22.5 MPG is from two half tank fill ups and computing exact actual mileage each time. Both times the display was saying 24.5. In between the two, the shop foreman at Lexus hooked the car up to a computer, rebooted the car and made some adjustments. Don’t know what he actually adjusted, but it made no difference. And now that I’m writing this, I realize that the weather made no difference either. The first time was that very cold spell in January (teens), and the second time was last week where it was at least 20 degrees warmer: mid-30’s.
So, don’t know what the next step is. This car is not getting much better mileage than my 2010 ES350 — about two mpg better. Btw, I drive in normal mode, not sport or ECO. I really don’t like ECO.
#536
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Mileage
I have a loaded 2016 ES 300H. I generally get 32-36 mpg on short trips and have gotten 50 mpg on a 2 hours highway trips at 60 -65 mph. Have been totally satisfied and this is the 3rd Lexus hybrid I have leased. All have gotten mileage as advertised.
#537
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Again, thanks all.
I tried an an experiment this past Saturday, and drove a mixed environment for about two hours: Fifteen minutes of highway driving, mostly to warm up the engine, followed by fifteen minutes of city driving, then an hour of country roads, and finally another half hour of city streets to complete a loop. The display on my car showed 42 MPG!
Since then I’ve gone back to my normal schedule of ten to fifteen minute rides (office, grocery, gym, etc.). The mileage is dropping, now down to 33 MPG in three days.
So it seems that the car is capable of hybrid performance but will barely use battery on these short trips. Does anyone know if there is a computer adjustment to address this?
I tried an an experiment this past Saturday, and drove a mixed environment for about two hours: Fifteen minutes of highway driving, mostly to warm up the engine, followed by fifteen minutes of city driving, then an hour of country roads, and finally another half hour of city streets to complete a loop. The display on my car showed 42 MPG!
Since then I’ve gone back to my normal schedule of ten to fifteen minute rides (office, grocery, gym, etc.). The mileage is dropping, now down to 33 MPG in three days.
So it seems that the car is capable of hybrid performance but will barely use battery on these short trips. Does anyone know if there is a computer adjustment to address this?
#538
Again, thanks all.
I tried an an experiment this past Saturday, and drove a mixed environment for about two hours: Fifteen minutes of highway driving, mostly to warm up the engine, followed by fifteen minutes of city driving, then an hour of country roads, and finally another half hour of city streets to complete a loop. The display on my car showed 42 MPG!
Since then I’ve gone back to my normal schedule of ten to fifteen minute rides (office, grocery, gym, etc.). The mileage is dropping, now down to 33 MPG in three days.
So it seems that the car is capable of hybrid performance but will barely use battery on these short trips. Does anyone know if there is a computer adjustment to address this?
I tried an an experiment this past Saturday, and drove a mixed environment for about two hours: Fifteen minutes of highway driving, mostly to warm up the engine, followed by fifteen minutes of city driving, then an hour of country roads, and finally another half hour of city streets to complete a loop. The display on my car showed 42 MPG!
Since then I’ve gone back to my normal schedule of ten to fifteen minute rides (office, grocery, gym, etc.). The mileage is dropping, now down to 33 MPG in three days.
So it seems that the car is capable of hybrid performance but will barely use battery on these short trips. Does anyone know if there is a computer adjustment to address this?
#539
Lexus Test Driver
Hybrids are conventional cars with electric motors tacked on, not the other way around. The engine runs most of the time to keep itself and the emissions control systems warm. Short trips are bad for mileage because the engine doesn't have a chance to warm up and it also has to run as a generator for the electric motor. Cold weather makes this worse because the engine has to run even longer to get warm.
Plug-in hybrids or battery electric vehicles are the best for short range trips, their battery packs can supply enough power to run on electric-only mode for the whole trip.
That said, I've hit 50 mpg on a short commute in warm weather and with a good stretch of green lights. Lifting off the throttle and then gently getting back on it in Eco mode helps activate EV mode at low speeds. Have a look at pulse and glide techniques if you want to hit high MPGs.
Plug-in hybrids or battery electric vehicles are the best for short range trips, their battery packs can supply enough power to run on electric-only mode for the whole trip.
That said, I've hit 50 mpg on a short commute in warm weather and with a good stretch of green lights. Lifting off the throttle and then gently getting back on it in Eco mode helps activate EV mode at low speeds. Have a look at pulse and glide techniques if you want to hit high MPGs.
#540
I have a 2013 300h, and have gotten 39 mpg on a few tanks when I tried, but average around 35 and drive with a heavy foot on I-95.
in my experience:
The ideal road is 45 mph limit, you get up to speed say 43 then and a big lift off the gas, and feather the throttle. I can 'activate' the EV mode in this way,
Once EV mode is engaged, it will stay there if the throttle stays below half. once the engine is warm.
I also reprogrammed my dash to always show the throttle position, vs rpms. on the left dial. I also put the driver mode on the mpg (the one that show tire pressure), so even on a 65mph road, I can see 40mpg on the dash, if I feather the throttle.
33 mpg isn't unreasonable, but you can probably boost that a few points by learning how to engage and say in EV mode.
22 mpg,doesn't sound right to me. stuck brake?
in my experience:
The ideal road is 45 mph limit, you get up to speed say 43 then and a big lift off the gas, and feather the throttle. I can 'activate' the EV mode in this way,
Once EV mode is engaged, it will stay there if the throttle stays below half. once the engine is warm.
I also reprogrammed my dash to always show the throttle position, vs rpms. on the left dial. I also put the driver mode on the mpg (the one that show tire pressure), so even on a 65mph road, I can see 40mpg on the dash, if I feather the throttle.
33 mpg isn't unreasonable, but you can probably boost that a few points by learning how to engage and say in EV mode.
22 mpg,doesn't sound right to me. stuck brake?
Last edited by mrBillFL; 03-03-18 at 08:33 PM.