fpb1980

Hello everyone, I am new to the club and have a question. I am looking to trade in my car to get a 2013 es. I am interested in the 350 and the 300h both are around the hybrid is a few dollars more. The 350 has 36k and the 300h has about 28k miles. I am not the lightest driver but when I test drove both cars I only fit a little difference when accelerating. Are there any "heavy drivers" out there with the hybrid and what did you experience?

What are the experiences with the steering and turning corners?

I live in the city and am leaning towards the hybrid but want to hear the case for the 350.

Thanks.

zes

Both excellent cars with tough, proven drive trains. If you like crisp gear changes, and enjoy hearing the engine rev up with speed the 350 is for you. If you don't want to feel the gear changes the hybrid is for you, as it does not have any gears. The 350 from 2013 on does not have its engine damped as well as the older model. You can feel a slight vibration at the wheel and pedals when it is idling. The 300h is absolutely quiet at idle because the engine shuts off. However about 50% of the time there is a discernible thump when the engine starts up as the car gets going. The other 50% of the time the engine engages seamlessly. Under mild and normal acceleration, one does not feel the engine speed in the 300h but if you floor it, the engine speed is disconnected with the speed changes in the car, which some people don't like. The 300h gives better mileage, but the hybrid battery life is unknown, other than Prius and Camry hybrid data, which is encouraging. E 300h has a slightly smaller trunk and the back seat does not fold. If you are a normal person you may never know you are driving a hybrid, as Lexus has done a good job refining the drivetrain. If you are a car nerd, you will either love the hybrid or hate it.

fpb1980

Thank you. I am the type who likes to pass people on the highway, from what you wrote it sounds it wont be a problem with the 300 h but you have to get used to hybrid. Do you agree?

TechNut

I think Zes described it pretty well. There are several members here that have one of each so they will clearly be more qualified to answer this. Anyway, regarding the thump Zes spoke of at startup, I think you have to be paying attention to really notice it. It is pretty subtle, but definitely present. After a bit over a year, I don't even notice it. You would need to drive it for yourself to really evaluate that. I should note, it is a smoother transition than the 2006 or 2010 Prius.

I also like the fact that the hybrid is smoother and quieter under normal driving, but under spirited driving I suspect the 350 may exhibit less engine noise, although not as smooth or quiet at low speeds or idle. I also like the instant torque from the electric motor on the hybrid. Again, you pretty much need to drive it to decide for yourself. Each car has a different feel and your driving style will definitely factor into which is the best fit - but off the top of my head I would bet you would prefer the 350 if you are in the habit of spirited driving.

Also, while the 300 definitely gets remarkable gas mileage for the size of car, the battery life is definitely a question - just as Zes stated. A hybrid depends on a large and expensive battery. Like all batteries, it will need replaced at some point. It is only warranteed for 8 to 10 years (in the US, 10 years for CARB states). If you plan to keep it for a long time, you need to factor that in. My wife and I are fine with this and understand that car batteries don't last forever, but my sister-in-law was very upset when her Camry battery had to be replaced at a bit over nine years and 125k miles. It was $4600 at the dealership and probably negated any gas mileage savings over their ownership of the car. So if you keep your cars for a long time, the 350 may be the less expensive ownership.

For the record, I am a car nut and a geek. I love the technology behind the hybrids and appreciate their advantages, while recognizing that they have some drawbacks.

TechNut

At highway speeds, I believe the 350 will have more "get up and go", but the 300h isn't terrible. I'm sort of assuming you mean a two lane highway with oncoming traffic, so some urgency is required. If you are talking about passing on an interstate, then either will do a good job for you.

As I mentioned in my last post, I think you really want to drive both and test for those specific situations you may be concerned about. My driving tends to be pretty mild, while my wife's driving is more spirited. If she sees a yellow light, she floors it.

fpb1980

Thank you! Most days i just drive on city roads, so the hybrid wins therr. When I drive on interstates i just wan to make sure that ill be able to pass someone if i have to.

My history has been that i sell my cars as the financing ends or well before it so no issue with the warranty or battery.

I am coming from an e350 4matic so i want to make sure that i am getting something that can handle turns and the occasional pedal to the medal

chromedome

The hybrid has lots of low down torque and it's great for city driving. For high speed driving on the highway, you'll have to use Sport mode to get more torque and even then, there's a lag between flooring the throttle and accelerating. The hybrid is nice to hustle around because the nose isn't so heavy and the battery pack over the rear axle gives it more balanced handling. It's no sport sedan though.

You'll also have fun getting 40+ mpg easily while 50+ mpg is achievable on rural roads. That's crazy mileage for such a big car.

TechNut

I think you would enjoy either car given your explanation. I would note that you are coming from an all wheel drive 4matic and these are only front wheel drive cars. You also live in PA according to your profile so you defitely get winter weather. My hybrids have been real troopers in snowy conditions. I have always wondered if the extra battery weight over the rear wheels contributes to that winter handling, but that is pure speculation on my part. That isn't to say the 350 wouldn't do well on winter roads as our former Avalon (the car the ES is purportedly based on) had no problems.

Canesguy

I totally agree with the comments of the others above. Having owned the Hybrid, and driven the ES350 a fair amount, I would say with consideration for the comments you made, my nod would go to the Hybrid. I drove mine quite a bit on highways and never an issue with its performance.

zes

Like Ward6096, I am a car nerd and I just love the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde personality of the 300h, and I bought it for the uniqueness of its drivetrain. I think it is amazing that unlike other cars it has NO clutches, belts or pulleys at all in the drivetrain. All the gearing changes are done through motor speeds changes, even from dead stop to full speed. No clutches at all. As a mechanical engineer, I think that is amazing, and how smoothly it is done is even more amazing. There is nothing to wear out and get rough over time. My wife has an Altima with a CVT, and now with 80K miles on it, the drivetrain (which is pulley based) kinds of grabs on to a particular 'gear' ratio, presumably because the pulleys have worn in to the speeds she usually drives at. This should not happen with a 300h because there are no pulleys and belts. Also, I like the fact that in the Econ mode it is very smooth and quiet and 'Lexus' like. In the sport mode it is very responsive to the pedal, and a lot of fun taking off at traffic lights, especially if one needs to cut across three lanes in front of everybody to take a ramp to a freeway! But like other folks on this board, I also find sport mode to be too abrupt for day to day driving. I am too mellow in my old age, I guess! I think you should have no problems passing others on two lane roads in sport mode. You touch the gas and it is up to 80mph before you know it.

fpb1980

Thank you. Everyone comments have been awesome and I am going to try to get the hybrid this week. Just some general maintenance questions. How many miles do you get out of the brakes and how much does it typically cost for lexus to replace?

Is there anything I should have the dealer look over before I get the car even if it is certified?

TechNut

I have never owned a hybrid long enough to need a brake replacement. I regularly use a taxi service that uses a Prius and is required to get regular inspections. He has over 200K miles and still claims to be on the original brakes. Your question hits on another significant difference between the two models.

The ES 300h as a hybrid uses regenerative braking. In other words, when you step on the brakes, you are actually engaging the generator rather than the brakes, unless you brake hard. Because of this, your brakes will last a long time but that of course still depends on your driving (or braking) style. Now for the downside, many people don't care for the braking feel of the hybrids because they aren't as linear as traditional brakes. Additionally, they are a little grabby right before the car actually stops as the true brakes kick in. If you really pay attention, you can still come to a smooth stop, but you have to pay attention. My wife absolutely cannot stop smoothly so I always feel like I am getting minor whiplash from her stops.

fpb1980

Sometimes I do hard brake but not often. Is hard to adjust to braking style? Since I am in city driving most of the time, I don't think it should be an issue. Do you agree?

TechNut

It isn't hard to adjust at all. It is just a little different feel and some find it annoying. The car magazines blast hybrids pretty universally due to the braking feel. We have driven hybrids for ten years now and don't really think much about it. Now that both of our cars are hybrids, we REALLY don't give it a second thought. You will get used to it quickly.

chromedome

Panic stops from highway speeds are another thing because the hybrid brakes feel like they can't stop the car in time with normal brake pressure. The solution is to stomp hard on the brakes and let the computer figure it out