Hybrid worth it? Part 2: Cost
06-21-20, 11:17 AM
#31
Here in Oregon with 10% ethanol fuel, I typically get mileage in the high-20s for both city and highway driving. The exceptions: (1) lots of short trips in the winter, this means the ICE never totally warms up, so mileage as bad as the high-teens (like a conventional car), (2) driving at 75mph, mileage drops to mid-20s. The RX is big and not particularly streamlined, so lots of aerodynamic drag. Even so, the hybrid uses an Atkinson-cycle ICE, which gets 1 or 2 mpg better on the highway than the conventional Otto-cycle ICE in a regular car.
Saving fuel is not the big thing for me. To me it's the smoothness of a shift-free "transmission," which is really nothing more than a planetary gearset with the ICE driving one input, a beefy motor driving the other input, and the output driving the wheels. And planetary gears never wear out. Great car.
Saving fuel is not the big thing for me. To me it's the smoothness of a shift-free "transmission," which is really nothing more than a planetary gearset with the ICE driving one input, a beefy motor driving the other input, and the output driving the wheels. And planetary gears never wear out. Great car.
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06-21-20, 02:51 PM
#32
Driver School Candidate
But don't you have to use more expensive gas? In Colorado at 5000 feet my non hybrid gets 22 regularly around town. ( Stop go driving from store to store gets it down to 18 - never been below). On an interstate trip down to Denver I get 26-28 (about the same as I got with the 4 runner). I'm happy with that..Am I careful? Yes - I tend to drive at 70 on interstate and always in Eco mode unless required for other reasons.
My reasons for going non hybrid may have been questionable at the time but the difference in price at the time was $4000 - I just could not see the advantage for me -
Chris
My reasons for going non hybrid may have been questionable at the time but the difference in price at the time was $4000 - I just could not see the advantage for me -
Chris
06-22-20, 05:54 PM
#33
I think a little caveat is in order. the hybrid only gets good city mpg in light traffic situations. In heavy stop-and-go traffic (90% of my driving), my Gen 2 hybrid gets 20mpg at best. While on the open freeway I'm getting 28-30mpg, much better than city. I'm upgrading to Gen 4 soon and will see if the newer hybrid does better in city...otherwise I'm going with RX350 F-Sport.
06-23-20, 08:33 PM
#34
Driver School Candidate
I have had my 2020 rx450h for about 2 months now. Love it. Came from a 2015 rx350.
My favorite thing about the hybrid: when you wash the car, the wheels are super easy to clean because you never have any brake dust due to regenerative braking. This alone is worth the cost of the hybrid, in my opinion. Saves so much time with cleaning.
Second favorite is instant acceleration at highway driving. Comes in handy when I need to get out of someone’s way. It’s a turtle off the line though. But once it gains momentum, it really goes. I use eco for short hops when there is little traffic and normal for everything else. I have not tried driving in sport yet.
Also the mileage seems better with highway trips compared to driving on local roads. Overall, the 2015 rx350 gave me 18 mpg and the hybrid gives me 27 to 29 mpg so far.
Regarding cost of premium gas...I would always get gas when I needed it, which was frequently with the rx350. With the hybrid I refuel less often, so I can now always pick the cheapest station, ie Costco for me. So the regular vs premium doesn’t apply to me. I can always get cheapest premium when before I often had to buy expensive regular.
My favorite thing about the hybrid: when you wash the car, the wheels are super easy to clean because you never have any brake dust due to regenerative braking. This alone is worth the cost of the hybrid, in my opinion. Saves so much time with cleaning.
Second favorite is instant acceleration at highway driving. Comes in handy when I need to get out of someone’s way. It’s a turtle off the line though. But once it gains momentum, it really goes. I use eco for short hops when there is little traffic and normal for everything else. I have not tried driving in sport yet.
Also the mileage seems better with highway trips compared to driving on local roads. Overall, the 2015 rx350 gave me 18 mpg and the hybrid gives me 27 to 29 mpg so far.
Regarding cost of premium gas...I would always get gas when I needed it, which was frequently with the rx350. With the hybrid I refuel less often, so I can now always pick the cheapest station, ie Costco for me. So the regular vs premium doesn’t apply to me. I can always get cheapest premium when before I often had to buy expensive regular.
06-24-20, 09:25 AM
#35
Driver School Candidate
I just helped my parents buy a preowned '18 RX450hL. So far they are loving it. I agree 100% about the premium vs regular. The difference in price for premium fuel could be offset by finding the cheapest place to fill up. Either way, the RX hybrid is an excellent vehicle.
05-13-21, 02:20 PM
#37
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New to this forum.
I have just bought an RX350 F sport 2017. So far could not be happier and it is my first Lexus after 3 4runners. (I do miss the electric rear window!). The point I wanted to make is this:
The Lexus dealer showed me a 450H which was fantastic and an "ordinary" 350 - but I needed time to consider. I went home and did some basic calcs. Comparing each vehicle the hybrid does 30 mpg and the 350 does 22 (EPA figures) a fantastic difference!!!
I do about 12,000 miles a year. So a quick calc indicates the hybrid will use 400 gals.and the gas guzzler will use 545 per year. So.... 145 gals difference at (say) $2.50 a gal. is $363 year saving.
BUT the hybrid is about $4000 more expensive - even in the used lots. So it will take me about 11 years to pay the difference AND in 7 years I'm going to need new batteries in the hybrid.
Have I missed something? Am I really going to save the planet with that fuel saving AND buying new batteries???? (and I'm not partial to CVT's)
Chris
I have just bought an RX350 F sport 2017. So far could not be happier and it is my first Lexus after 3 4runners. (I do miss the electric rear window!). The point I wanted to make is this:
The Lexus dealer showed me a 450H which was fantastic and an "ordinary" 350 - but I needed time to consider. I went home and did some basic calcs. Comparing each vehicle the hybrid does 30 mpg and the 350 does 22 (EPA figures) a fantastic difference!!!
I do about 12,000 miles a year. So a quick calc indicates the hybrid will use 400 gals.and the gas guzzler will use 545 per year. So.... 145 gals difference at (say) $2.50 a gal. is $363 year saving.
BUT the hybrid is about $4000 more expensive - even in the used lots. So it will take me about 11 years to pay the difference AND in 7 years I'm going to need new batteries in the hybrid.
Have I missed something? Am I really going to save the planet with that fuel saving AND buying new batteries???? (and I'm not partial to CVT's)
Chris
05-13-21, 04:15 PM
#38
Lead Lap
05-13-21, 05:26 PM
#39
We’ve owned our 2015 RX450h since new. It gets at least 30:MPG in city or highway. We’ve always used REGULAR GAS and never had an issue.
The RX was our 4th Hybrid after 2 previous Prius’s and a Lexus CT200H.
And since 2015 we’ve owned 4 Nissan fully electric Leafs. The leafs have been are daily drivers. The RX 450h is basically a garage queen that we use when we go out to dinner or meet with friends. It’s the best car we’ve ever owned. We get oil changes at local Toyota dealer. The only other maintenance has been wiper blade inserts and cabin air filters.
The RX was our 4th Hybrid after 2 previous Prius’s and a Lexus CT200H.
And since 2015 we’ve owned 4 Nissan fully electric Leafs. The leafs have been are daily drivers. The RX 450h is basically a garage queen that we use when we go out to dinner or meet with friends. It’s the best car we’ve ever owned. We get oil changes at local Toyota dealer. The only other maintenance has been wiper blade inserts and cabin air filters.
Last edited by FLYCT; 05-13-21 at 05:39 PM.
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05-13-21, 07:07 PM
#40
I enjoy the 2020 450 that I bought new last May. Admittedly I did not buy it to save gas, get better mileage, to be kinder for the environment, nor do I mind buying premium gas. Simply put, I thought it was cool technology to own, which was my sole motivation.
05-13-21, 08:39 PM
#41
Intermediate
I have a 2017 RX450h and never used premium gas. Even the dealer admitted to filling it up with regular gas. I can get on a big technical discussion on octane and how it is a big gimmick unless your car knocks. We had several Organic Chemistry discussions in college about octane. Most modern cars computerized systems are designed to prevent knock and the drawback of using regular gas is that you might be a little less efficient: 0.5-1MPG less.
A few things to add to the comparison:
Even with regular gas, I get 30-33MPG. When I had a RX350 loaner from the dealer, my mileage in the same drive to work was 18-20MPG.
When I bought the car, a comparatively priced RX350 with the same upgrades was $2000 more.
Many systems are electrical not mechanical and with less belts, so the long term repairs cost are less.
The brakes last way much longer. Our Camry Hybrid had its brakes replaced after 12 years.
Batteries on our 2007 Camry hybrid lasted until 2020. we started to see MPG dropping from 37-39 to 32-35 MPG in the last three years. Battery replacement at the dealer was $4000. Battery replacement by reconditioning at a third party vendor was $2000.
Lexus battery warranty is 10 years. In my four years I had the car, I see no noticeable decrease in MPG, except in extreme cold weather, until the car and interior warm up.
Price differences between hybrids and gas engines are coming down. We looked at the 2020 RAV4 hybrid and it was $800 more than a comparatively equipped gas engine version.
The hybrid has more torque and power when pressing accelerator. It has a very smooth acceleration with no jerks during shifting due to CVT.
The hybrid is much more quiet.
To me, the quietness, smoothness, and extra torque and horsepower were pretty good incentives to spend a little more. The added bonus of gas saving is nice. I used to fill the car every week with a 12-15MPG Acura MDX. Now I fill once a month for the same drive to work.
A few things to add to the comparison:
Even with regular gas, I get 30-33MPG. When I had a RX350 loaner from the dealer, my mileage in the same drive to work was 18-20MPG.
When I bought the car, a comparatively priced RX350 with the same upgrades was $2000 more.
Many systems are electrical not mechanical and with less belts, so the long term repairs cost are less.
The brakes last way much longer. Our Camry Hybrid had its brakes replaced after 12 years.
Batteries on our 2007 Camry hybrid lasted until 2020. we started to see MPG dropping from 37-39 to 32-35 MPG in the last three years. Battery replacement at the dealer was $4000. Battery replacement by reconditioning at a third party vendor was $2000.
Lexus battery warranty is 10 years. In my four years I had the car, I see no noticeable decrease in MPG, except in extreme cold weather, until the car and interior warm up.
Price differences between hybrids and gas engines are coming down. We looked at the 2020 RAV4 hybrid and it was $800 more than a comparatively equipped gas engine version.
The hybrid has more torque and power when pressing accelerator. It has a very smooth acceleration with no jerks during shifting due to CVT.
The hybrid is much more quiet.
To me, the quietness, smoothness, and extra torque and horsepower were pretty good incentives to spend a little more. The added bonus of gas saving is nice. I used to fill the car every week with a 12-15MPG Acura MDX. Now I fill once a month for the same drive to work.
Last edited by lexnewbi; 05-13-21 at 08:58 PM.
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05-14-21, 04:22 AM
#42
I think you've missed that the hybrid requires premium gasoline, which is around 60 cents more expensive per gallon. So the annual savings are actually only around $123 per year under your assumptions about cost of gas on milage. Battery will need replacing at 150K miles, and that's a 6,000 or 7,000 repair. Breakpad replacements are pretty cheap, I think around 300 every 60,000 miles. So over 300,000 miles, the hybrid will almost for sure cost you more on maintenance and repairs than you'd save on gas. I think you need gas prices close to $4.50 or $5.00 per gallon to come out close to even.
Last edited by golferjack; 05-14-21 at 06:52 AM. Reason: add info
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05-14-21, 10:29 PM
#43
At our local CostCo, 93 Octane is 30 cents per gallon more than 87 Octane.
For comparison purposes, my wife gets about 24 MPG overall with her 2020 RX 350; I get about 33 MPG overall with my 2021 RX 450h. Our mix of city and highway driving is about the same. It is city driving where the difference is most pronounced between the two. The 350 averages about 17-18 MPG in city driving; I get about 31 MPG in the 450h. But, even on the highway, the 450h gets better fuel economy - especially on long runs (75 miles or more). One reason is the placement of the hybrid battery itself - under the second row seats. That insures that the battery is operating at an optimal ambient temperature most of the time. Batteries underneath a car are much less likely to operate as efficiently in any climate with large temperature swings between the peak heat of summer and the deep cold of winter.
Until the number of available of electric charging stations approaches that of gasoline stations; until all-electric vehicles come down in price; and, until re-charging an electric car requires only a modest expenditure of down-time, I believe hybrid technology will prove to be a quite popular alternative.
For comparison purposes, my wife gets about 24 MPG overall with her 2020 RX 350; I get about 33 MPG overall with my 2021 RX 450h. Our mix of city and highway driving is about the same. It is city driving where the difference is most pronounced between the two. The 350 averages about 17-18 MPG in city driving; I get about 31 MPG in the 450h. But, even on the highway, the 450h gets better fuel economy - especially on long runs (75 miles or more). One reason is the placement of the hybrid battery itself - under the second row seats. That insures that the battery is operating at an optimal ambient temperature most of the time. Batteries underneath a car are much less likely to operate as efficiently in any climate with large temperature swings between the peak heat of summer and the deep cold of winter.
Until the number of available of electric charging stations approaches that of gasoline stations; until all-electric vehicles come down in price; and, until re-charging an electric car requires only a modest expenditure of down-time, I believe hybrid technology will prove to be a quite popular alternative.
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jollick (05-15-21)
05-17-21, 08:00 AM
#44
But don't you have to use more expensive gas? In Colorado at 5000 feet my non hybrid gets 22 regularly around town. ( Stop go driving from store to store gets it down to 18 - never been below). On an interstate trip down to Denver I get 26-28 (about the same as I got with the 4 runner). I'm happy with that..Am I careful? Yes - I tend to drive at 70 on interstate and always in Eco mode unless required for other reasons.
My reasons for going non hybrid may have been questionable at the time but the difference in price at the time was $4000 - I just could not see the advantage for me -
Chris
My reasons for going non hybrid may have been questionable at the time but the difference in price at the time was $4000 - I just could not see the advantage for me -
Chris
05-17-21, 08:36 AM
#45
I did a build on an RX 350 AWD and a 450h and the difference is 1300.00 not 4000.00. The RX 350 is 48370.00 and the 450h is 49370.00. These are base price vehicles and to make it fair I opted for the AWD 350 model, since hybrids all come with AWD. The 1300.00 difference is minor when all the non MPG benifits are considered.
Have not monitored the US prices as much, but I believe the gap has been closing as well, and not just for the RX. It won't be long now before Lexus goes all-hybrid, and the gas-only versions will no longer be sold in NA. Toyota's Sienna and Venza are likely the sign of things to come.