My "New" 2010 LS600hL!
05-02-18, 11:21 AM
#61
Thanks for the encouraging words, Michele! I've taken the "no-CarGurus" pledge and will try to be disciplined in keeping this car for the entire 6 years of warranty coverage! Good luck with your new LS460L also! Is it on its way to you yet? That Matador Mica exterior with Parchment interior is "da bomb!"
05-02-18, 11:30 AM
#62
Instructor
Thread Starter
Not only is it not on my way to me, I can't seem to get this deal to close! I'm anxiously waiting to sign the paperwork and fund it and just heard from the notary co that they're sending out (new policy for out of state purchases), that they won't have the paperwork until tomorrow and then will schedule after that. Can't we just do a video chat with their finance dept?! With tech these days, you would think an out of state purchase could be simplified (e-signature). They can't release the car to transport until the deal funds which can take at least a day processing from the bank. Not that the transport co has called yet to tell me they have a carrier ready to pick it up. That's my next challenge. I really hope my car is here by Mother's day! In my mind, that would be the best time to get this beauty...out with the Mom minivan finally and into something much, much, much more enjoyable!
05-02-18, 11:53 AM
#63
05-02-18, 12:07 PM
#64
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks Rick! Like your new signature, BTW. All right, I kind of get it now. Here's the link to the notary services. https://mavsign.com/services It protects them and ensures that the paperwork is done right. I just found out that the dealership I'm purchasing from doesn't have a finance dept and that the sales reps are in charge of that also so you have one point of contact and don't get bounced around. I think I actually prefer it this way. They are supposed to be notary experts for the automotive industry. They're local and know my state laws and regulations so they'll know if the taxes should be charged on the fees or not. It should be a simple transaction. The paperwork has been sealed and sent to FedEx so it's in the works. Luckily my schedule is flexible tomorrow so I told them I could close anytime. Can't wait! (Sorry for hi-jacking your thread. I don't mean to steal your thunder!)
05-02-18, 08:50 PM
#65
Pole Position
Not only is it not on my way to me, I can't seem to get this deal to close! I'm anxiously waiting to sign the paperwork and fund it and just heard from the notary co that they're sending out (new policy for out of state purchases), that they won't have the paperwork until tomorrow and then will schedule after that. Can't we just do a video chat with their finance dept?! With tech these days, you would think an out of state purchase could be simplified (e-signature). They can't release the car to transport until the deal funds which can take at least a day processing from the bank. Not that the transport co has called yet to tell me they have a carrier ready to pick it up. That's my next challenge. I really hope my car is here by Mother's day! In my mind, that would be the best time to get this beauty...out with the Mom minivan finally and into something much, much, much more enjoyable!
Perhaps it's too far along the process now, but it seems that you would be better off flying to Wichita, test-driving, and closing the deal in person. You are probably saving a few hundred through this long-distance notary stuff and transportation broker instead of dealing in person. You are probably looking at a 20 hour return road trip with an overnight break. If you ask me, that would be a lot more fun than waiting for the truck to arrive
Anyways, just a thought...
05-03-18, 06:48 AM
#66
Instructor
Thread Starter
Well, one of my initial issues has been resolved, thanks to Discount Tire. I had swapped the rims and tires on my LS460L to my new LS600hL (I had just bought new Pirelli tires for the LS460L). This swap of course meant that my tire pressure monitoring system in the LS600 didn't register the sensors in my wheels. Lexus of Omaha said they would program the TMPS for $150. Hmmm... I dropped by my local Discount Tire location, and they were able to program my TPMS in about 5 minutes at no cost.
While I was there, I told them I was feeling a bit of minor vibration from the rear tires. When I bought the tires, I had them road-force balanced, and they were unable to get a great balance on the rear two tires (around 26 lbs was the best they could do). I figured that was as good as they'd get, and so I didn't sweat it, but after reading more about road force balancing, I realized that 26 lbs of out-of-balance could cause a perceptible vibration. Anyway, Discount Tire initially tried swapping out one of the rear Pirellis for the never-used spare tire rim. When they road-force balanced the new setup, they came back with the same 26 lbs of out-of-balance. Discount Tire then decided the tires themselves must not be perfectly round, and promptly ordered two replacement tires for me. They made some grumbling noise about me maybe having to pay some of the cost of the two new tires, but I can't see how that makes sense, since I just bought the tires less than 2 months ago (and they have that classic commercial saying I can return my tires at any time if I'm not satisfied).
All-in-all, I'm very impressed with Discount Tire in general. We'll see if the new tires can balance out better when they arrive in a couple of days...
While I was there, I told them I was feeling a bit of minor vibration from the rear tires. When I bought the tires, I had them road-force balanced, and they were unable to get a great balance on the rear two tires (around 26 lbs was the best they could do). I figured that was as good as they'd get, and so I didn't sweat it, but after reading more about road force balancing, I realized that 26 lbs of out-of-balance could cause a perceptible vibration. Anyway, Discount Tire initially tried swapping out one of the rear Pirellis for the never-used spare tire rim. When they road-force balanced the new setup, they came back with the same 26 lbs of out-of-balance. Discount Tire then decided the tires themselves must not be perfectly round, and promptly ordered two replacement tires for me. They made some grumbling noise about me maybe having to pay some of the cost of the two new tires, but I can't see how that makes sense, since I just bought the tires less than 2 months ago (and they have that classic commercial saying I can return my tires at any time if I'm not satisfied).
All-in-all, I'm very impressed with Discount Tire in general. We'll see if the new tires can balance out better when they arrive in a couple of days...
05-03-18, 08:24 AM
#67
Well, one of my initial issues has been resolved, thanks to Discount Tire. I had swapped the rims and tires on my LS460L to my new LS600hL (I had just bought new Pirelli tires for the LS460L). This swap of course meant that my tire pressure monitoring system in the LS600 didn't register the sensors in my wheels. Lexus of Omaha said they would program the TMPS for $150. Hmmm... I dropped by my local Discount Tire location, and they were able to program my TPMS in about 5 minutes at no cost.
While I was there, I told them I was feeling a bit of minor vibration from the rear tires. When I bought the tires, I had them road-force balanced, and they were unable to get a great balance on the rear two tires (around 26 lbs was the best they could do). I figured that was as good as they'd get, and so I didn't sweat it, but after reading more about road force balancing, I realized that 26 lbs of out-of-balance could cause a perceptible vibration. Anyway, Discount Tire initially tried swapping out one of the rear Pirellis for the never-used spare tire rim. When they road-force balanced the new setup, they came back with the same 26 lbs of out-of-balance. Discount Tire then decided the tires themselves must not be perfectly round, and promptly ordered two replacement tires for me. They made some grumbling noise about me maybe having to pay some of the cost of the two new tires, but I can't see how that makes sense, since I just bought the tires less than 2 months ago (and they have that classic commercial saying I can return my tires at any time if I'm not satisfied).
All-in-all, I'm very impressed with Discount Tire in general. We'll see if the new tires can balance out better when they arrive in a couple of days...
While I was there, I told them I was feeling a bit of minor vibration from the rear tires. When I bought the tires, I had them road-force balanced, and they were unable to get a great balance on the rear two tires (around 26 lbs was the best they could do). I figured that was as good as they'd get, and so I didn't sweat it, but after reading more about road force balancing, I realized that 26 lbs of out-of-balance could cause a perceptible vibration. Anyway, Discount Tire initially tried swapping out one of the rear Pirellis for the never-used spare tire rim. When they road-force balanced the new setup, they came back with the same 26 lbs of out-of-balance. Discount Tire then decided the tires themselves must not be perfectly round, and promptly ordered two replacement tires for me. They made some grumbling noise about me maybe having to pay some of the cost of the two new tires, but I can't see how that makes sense, since I just bought the tires less than 2 months ago (and they have that classic commercial saying I can return my tires at any time if I'm not satisfied).
All-in-all, I'm very impressed with Discount Tire in general. We'll see if the new tires can balance out better when they arrive in a couple of days...
Question: Is a road force balance and a standard balance when new tires are mounted the same thing? And is it recommended and/or necessary to have an alignment done if you're only swapping out 2 tires?
05-03-18, 08:27 AM
#68
Hi Michele,
Perhaps it's too far along the process now, but it seems that you would be better off flying to Wichita, test-driving, and closing the deal in person. You are probably saving a few hundred through this long-distance notary stuff and transportation broker instead of dealing in person. You are probably looking at a 20 hour return road trip with an overnight break. If you ask me, that would be a lot more fun than waiting for the truck to arrive Anyways, just a thought...
Perhaps it's too far along the process now, but it seems that you would be better off flying to Wichita, test-driving, and closing the deal in person. You are probably saving a few hundred through this long-distance notary stuff and transportation broker instead of dealing in person. You are probably looking at a 20 hour return road trip with an overnight break. If you ask me, that would be a lot more fun than waiting for the truck to arrive
Anyways, just a thought...
05-03-18, 08:36 AM
#69
Instructor
Thread Starter
Glad to hear that Discount tire took care of you. And yeah, that $150 quoted by the Lexus dealer seems like a ridiculous price for just re-programming TPMS. I would have done exactly what you did. Interestingly, I had an SA at a Lexus dealer tell me that he doesn't recommend Pirellis because he found that there is inconsistency in the product and has seen uneven tires that needed to be swapped out several times. So this might not be an uncommon problem for the Pirellis. Regardless of the fact that you initially put these tires on your recently traded in vehicle, you still were having the issue before and it isn't satisfactory to have a vibration issue IMO. Hope that when the new tires come in, there will be no more vibration issues!
Question: Is a road force balance and a standard balance when new tires are mounted the same thing? And is it recommended and/or necessary to have an alignment done if you're only swapping out 2 tires?
Question: Is a road force balance and a standard balance when new tires are mounted the same thing? And is it recommended and/or necessary to have an alignment done if you're only swapping out 2 tires?
Road force balancing is definitely different than normal high-speed balancing, and involves placing the tire under a load and accurately measuring any imperfections in the tire/rim. The tire can be rotated on the rim sometimes to minimize vibration during the process. The balancing machine gives an overall balance rating in "pounds," with 10 or under being ideal and anything over about 20-25 being unacceptable (on a luxury car). Many forum members swear by the road force balancing, so I went with it despite a higher install cost...
05-03-18, 09:34 AM
#70
Congratulations again, Rick, on the gorgeous find! I've been a bit delayed in posting after you took delivery.
A few thoughts/tidbits on road-force, for what they're worth (to Mbbarron's question)...
I've been a huge fan of this approach since the early 2000s, when the Hunter GSP9700 was new, few shops had it, and most of those had no clue how to properly use it.
The machine (updated many times since) has myriad features, but focusing on the road force measurement part (not the on-wheel and/or cross-wheel adjustments that may follow, all informed by the machine), the point of this is to isolate vibration problems that are due to out-of-roundness, NOT mechanical imbalances (which are handled separately). Historically, technicians would see when a tire is out of round. However, this happens under no load.
If we think of a tire sidewall as a collection of radially-positioned springs, you can imagine how under load, any excessive variation in the stiffness of such "springs" (as you go around the circumference of the tire/wheel assembly) could effectively act like an out-of-round condition and trigger vibration. This is what RFV (road force variation) measures.
The rough acceptable number for passenger cars has historically been in the 20s. However, this doesn't fly on the LS (or with yours truly more broadly, as I feel everything). The unofficial spec for the LS is 10 lbs, per the old TSIB on driveline vibrations, which begins with a test for RFV no higher than 10 lbs.
Anyway, I hope I didn't put you all to sleep...
A few thoughts/tidbits on road-force, for what they're worth (to Mbbarron's question)...
I've been a huge fan of this approach since the early 2000s, when the Hunter GSP9700 was new, few shops had it, and most of those had no clue how to properly use it.
The machine (updated many times since) has myriad features, but focusing on the road force measurement part (not the on-wheel and/or cross-wheel adjustments that may follow, all informed by the machine), the point of this is to isolate vibration problems that are due to out-of-roundness, NOT mechanical imbalances (which are handled separately). Historically, technicians would see when a tire is out of round. However, this happens under no load.
If we think of a tire sidewall as a collection of radially-positioned springs, you can imagine how under load, any excessive variation in the stiffness of such "springs" (as you go around the circumference of the tire/wheel assembly) could effectively act like an out-of-round condition and trigger vibration. This is what RFV (road force variation) measures.
The rough acceptable number for passenger cars has historically been in the 20s. However, this doesn't fly on the LS (or with yours truly more broadly, as I feel everything). The unofficial spec for the LS is 10 lbs, per the old TSIB on driveline vibrations, which begins with a test for RFV no higher than 10 lbs.
Anyway, I hope I didn't put you all to sleep...
Last edited by caha14; 05-03-18 at 09:51 AM.
05-03-18, 11:37 AM
#71
Instructor
Thread Starter
Great explanation, CaHa! It's funny, but the manager at Discount Tire told me that 26 lbs on the road force balance would not be perceptible to drivers, but I also believe that in an LS600hL, any imperfections are perceptible, since the ride is so glass-smooth. I suppose it wouldn't matter in a pickup truck or a cheap sedan, but I agree that in a luxury car, the goal should be 10 lbs or less. Hopefully, I'll be able to get to that with the new tires!
05-03-18, 12:03 PM
#72
Great explanation, CaHa! It's funny, but the manager at Discount Tire told me that 26 lbs on the road force balance would not be perceptible to drivers, but I also believe that in an LS600hL, any imperfections are perceptible, since the ride is so glass-smooth. I suppose it wouldn't matter in a pickup truck or a cheap sedan, but I agree that in a luxury car, the goal should be 10 lbs or less. Hopefully, I'll be able to get to that with the new tires!
Another personal "favorite" is when I've been told you can't feel a 1/4 oz. imbalance. Really? Try me! I always just tell folks I am not normal... end of storyFingers crossed that the new tires take care of this issue.
Along these lines (for what it's worth, yet again...), whenever I get new tires, I ask for two things: RFV below 10 lbs and for Hunter's Smart Weight feature to be turned off.
The latter is advertised as an "easier" way to get a balance while relying on imperfections in the tire/wheel assembly. From my humble perspective, especially when the literature I see is accompanied by a count of how much weight has been saved in balancing "thanks" to this feature, this is a cost-saving measure for shops that precisely exploits the average person's inability to perceive certain vibrations. Put differently, it seems like a crappy balance. I cannot say I have tested it extensively, but having dealt with vibrations many times over the years, I have no desire.
Interesting factoid: when you do a regular balance and rerun the assembly, you should get zeroes (for corrective weights required on the inner and outer plane). Do this with SmartWeight on, and you get two "OK". Draw your own conclusion.
If we ever coincide, I will race you... I'm not carrying the extra weight of the Executive Seating Package II
05-03-18, 01:15 PM
#73
Instructor
Thread Starter
More great info, CaHa! Thanks. I wasn't aware of the Smart Weight feature you mentioned - when I have the new tires RFB'd, I'll specifically ask that they turn that feature off.
And I'm sure you'd win the race... that rear seating package is a beast, and your car has way fewer miles than mine!
And I'm sure you'd win the race... that rear seating package is a beast, and your car has way fewer miles than mine!
05-03-18, 01:32 PM
#74
Pole Position
It's not really the money, but the time that's more of a factor for me. I work full time and have 3 kids so it's not so easy to just pick up and go to Wichita for 2 1/2 days. Also, we have a Bat Mitzvah to attend this weekend and then I don't want to be away from my kids on Mother's day weekend so timing just won't work out to travel there in the next 2 weeks. I just have to hope for the best and cover my bases as much as possible with the transport carrier. Closing scheduled for this afternoon!
. Here's wishing that the closing goes off smoothly, and that you will have your dream car in time for Mother's Day weekend! Best wishes for many miles and years of driving pleasure
05-03-18, 01:59 PM
#75
Former Sponsor
I would tend to think the smooth glass like feeling of driving the LS is due to the robust design of the chassis & suspension system of the LS. And that a cheaper suspension (like on a Kia Rio for example) would tend to transmit all kind of garbage to the car.
Along that thinking, I would think an LS would absorb more imbalance from a tire than would the same Kia Rio. I.E., an LS with its sophisticated super smooth suspension may not feel 25 lbs of imbalance (as mentioned), but the Kia Rio would feel it tremendously.
That's my thinking, as an automotive engineer. But, my experience was not directly in suspension / chassis.
Jason
Along that thinking, I would think an LS would absorb more imbalance from a tire than would the same Kia Rio. I.E., an LS with its sophisticated super smooth suspension may not feel 25 lbs of imbalance (as mentioned), but the Kia Rio would feel it tremendously.
That's my thinking, as an automotive engineer. But, my experience was not directly in suspension / chassis.
Jason