703

I have the gs450h, es300h and rx450h but never noticed any shaking when the engine shuts off. There is occasional shutter when the engine turns on when battery is low at idle.

iaposhka

I would and maybe should aggree with you if not one small fact... trims are stored rich.. and second oil is permanently contaminated with fuel after running 100km on new oil.

new fact: Active test - Fuel cut to all cylinders

car starts shaking and stall.. but after 3-5 sec. comes back alive.. it is working like on 500psi of fuel instead of 350 nornaly.. strange noise like its choking.. but no missfire.. nothing.. then when I turn test off nothing.. enfine continues to run normally on 350 PSi of fuel but trims are halved of what it comes to rich side.. per se if before it is working -12 -14 .. after this test its like -4 -5 , and what I noticed more.. after I start this tesr fuel switch status says NG and stays like this for 5-7 minutes after I finish test.. then cones to OK again..
diving deeper into data gave me one correlation between two cases od fuel cut - Fuel switch NG and OK.. when "BM+ Voltage is stabilized to 14.412 exactly" fuel switch method comes to OK agaib, As I understand from manuals its voltage delivered ro Electronic throttle actuator, from the same manual i read that nornal voltage is between 11 to 14 volts.. so its out of range with 10%.. dont know its crutial or not. this volt drops when I cut fuel.. then starting to recover for 5-6 mins and when it reaches 14.412 ( I tryied this experiment two times) fuel switch method comes to OK again

When i bought the car it had AGM battery, shirtly after it died and I replaced it with Non AGM. maybe its main cause ?

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I may sound crazy But I know somethibg is wrong with fuel system or electric side.. Im very close to suicide 😁

Lwerewolf

Battery type is definitely not the issue.

Re: contaminated fuel - check compression, check how the spark plugs & combustion chamber look like?

Lwerewolf

OK, very stupid idea, but have you looked at the B(1/2)S1 O2 graphs during steady state driving while warmed up? By graphs I mean the actual output, not "made to look like a non-wideband". Look for any "non smoothness" - again, during steady-state driving, not during transients. It's very unlikely, but who knows.

Other than that - maybe, MAYBE the HPFP is leaking - explaining the trims and the fuel contamination. Haven't got much of a clue on how to diagnose. For some reason, the one on the 4GSh is unique to the 4GSh. Perhaps somebody over here with a 4GSh can give you "known good" target fuel pressure values (target & actual at given RPM).

iaposhka

first of all thank you billion times for helping me!!

about trims, it mainly reads rich, but today I got another correlation (Im advancing in understanding and tracking graphs) .

so correlelation:

State 1 and State 2 are taken just 5 min appart on the same states (warmed up driving for 1hr)

State 1

direct inection fuel trims -14on both banks but short is leaning it by +3-4. so sum is about -10

port injection Bank1 +3 lean and Bank2 is near to 0


after this I started active test: D4S cut fuel for each cylinder (it gives opportunity to choose not only injection method but to cut it on desired cylinder- I was trying to catch leaking injector by tracking RPM fluctuation after cutting all 12 injectors one by one) the test showed nothing .. all is more or less even , not leaking.. RPM drops by same ammount.. but what I found is State 2

State 2

after I cut fuel to first injector (direct injection for bank1 cyl1), sure there was jitter from missfire 2-3sec and miracle happened - after i turned off(ended) fuel cut test BOTH trims on both banks started to correct, shorts started to climb up and gradualy leaning down longs on both banks, and God damn Voila

direct inection fuel trims -2 on both banks but short is leaning it by +4 so sum is about ideal in most cases bank two is zero in total

BUT!!!!

port injection - after this I switched to port to see what happens to trims in this injection way and..

Bank1 +10 lean and Bank2 is near to +10 both lean with the same ammount- few minutes ago was direct inejction method. so when direct comes to nornal I have lean condition with +10 in port injection and wise versa
​​​​​

so conclusion 1 is - fuel cut for only cylinder 1 starts some process which gives direct come back to normal but damages process of port injection, somehow there is trigger that affects both injection methods

and conclusion 2 is that whatever it is .. it affects bith injection methods symethricaly. the ammount of lean and rich on direct and port methods most of the times are very close

and regarding compression test, its okey.. near to each other, so Cyl5 problem is not an issue and thank god. regarding camera - cylinders inside look okey but port injectors (after 5000 km from cleaining look like they are working i god damn rich condition .. 😁 sure they dk. I though about leaking HPFP but its very expensive.. I took it out.. changed all orings which are accesable but inside ones where fuel pump valve moves is unaccesable unfortunately.. I was thinking to change it but I already have working (replaced parts for 1000$s this time i want to change part after diagnosing not before ..

thank yoy very much for helping me again!!!!

Lwerewolf

1st, I'm barely helping as it is, no need to thank a billion :P

Re: the fuel pump - extremely weird that it's unique to the 4GSh, the 2/3/4GR-FSE share the same HPFP.

Another very stupid idea - disconnect the ignition coil and both injectors of the suspect cylinder and see how it runs.
Problems with this:
1) the car seems to be running fine, other than the trims and oil contamination(?)
2) the car will probably go in open loop mode when it detects these conditions (can't really rely on O2 readings with a freewheeling cylinder pumping fresh oxygen), so... scrap the idea.

Again, graph the fuel pressure - actual vs. requested. Might be interesting to see how it behaves when running port injection only (if running the graph & the active test together is hard, AFAIK you can hear when the car is doing this - no "chirp chirp", on the 3GS it happens when you keep the engine running in "sport" mode or when the car is keeping the engine running for cabin heating - make sure that techstream say "injection way: port" but I'm pretty sure that this was the case)

iaposhka

you are helping really.

Fuel pump is same for 350 and mine but both over 400$ too much for experimental usage ..😭

Ill disconnect it but "suspected cyl" is very hard to identify.. I dont have any suspects in this case 🤣

No car doesnt run fine.. it jitters when shutting down when on rich trims.. I feel it hard.. other sympthom is poor accelerarion, third one is when slowing down I feel kicks when engine is working.. rough idle when charging etc.. etc.. when checking cylinders from cold intake side fifth cylinder intake was kinda washed.. maybe some sympthom. and when car is on low fuel.. I mean less then 50km car going super rich.. trims fly up to -17 -18

adding graph for Fuel preasure target Value / Fuel Press. Im not familiar with this but target is in Mpa and fuel press is in Kpag.. are they comoarable or not dunno 😕🙄 to be sure will add this comparison for both injection methods. found recording with ideal oil (changed <10km)

port trim 7.8/-3.9 7.03/-0.782

direct trim -0.7/-6.2 -0.7/-6.2










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​​​​​regarding open loop yes.. probably you are right but what about symethrical change in trims ? and why they are symethrical thats second question ..

one more thought.. if HPFP is leaking fuel from valve inside fuel.. it with huge preasure.. leaking dirrctly inside valve cover.. but why it is causing trims to go rich.. when it has leak.. preasure goes up? as I can see ffrom graph preashre is above target in direct injection .. preliminary 6% .. so as trims are richer by this 5-6%

Lwerewolf

Disclaimer - I'm practically spewing things out of fantasy land now (i.e. wild speculation).

Symmetrical trims + no indication of a particular troublesome cylinder >> suspects are things NOT related to only a particular cylinder or bank:
-Throttle body
-Crankcase ventilation & breathing
-MAF
-Fuel pressure (pumps, regulators, etc)
Evap(?)

Here's another wild idea.

1) Disconnect the crankcase ventilation & crankcase breather tubes.
2) Close them off on the intake side, filter them on the engine side (i.e. breathe from atmosphere, vent to atmosphere, WITH the catch can - don't make a mess now). Think high performance turbo builds that put small filters on these locations.
3) See if anything changes.
My theory is that a theoretical leaky HPFP might be causing so much gas to evaporate and enter the intake (via the PCV and/or the crankcase breather) as to mess up the trims & cause the issues that you have.

The reason for the "wet" area around the 5th cylinder after the plastic intake plenum is that it's the closest route for the crankcase ventilation combustibles to go to. Same reason why it's the one to wear out first - supposedly it just all falls there due to the intake design. Respectively - no dust ingress - no issues. I wouldn't worry about it.

Have you smoke tested the exhaust system for leaks? EXTREMELY unlikely to be the case, but - doesn't hurt.

EDIT:
Might wanna try blocking off the fuel evap as well (the switch on the left of the intake). Shouldn't be causing the oil to smell of gasoline, though.

EDIT 2:
Crankcase breather tube is from the passenger side (LHD) valve cover, HPFP is on that cover as well. The car effectively shuts down the pressurization of fuel by the HPFP (via the spill valve) when it doesn't need it, so that might explain why port injection gets the trims normal.

Can you list the part numbers of the things that you changed on the high pressure fuel pump-side?

How did you clean the high pressure injectors?

EDIT 3:
Are you ABSOLUTELY sure that a HPFP from a GS350 would be the same as yours? The part numbers are NOT the same. The 4th gen GS450h one appears to be unique to it and the crown GWS214 (I think).

EDIT 4:
Enough said:

iaposhka

So to go chronologically

symmetrical trims mystery is that with both cases (case 1 and two) before and after fuel cut were one drastic change - ignition advance on certain CYLS went up that led to advance in fuel trims and they came to normal, far from air vent tubes is cyl 5 for this cylinder advance was also lowest (close to zero) when others went up by 3-4, so we are getting somewhere.

Throttle body is cleaned and absolutely sure that it works as a charm

Crankcase vent and breathing I changed both tubes, even changed PCV valve along with whole housing before putting on again i cleaned it becase I took it from used car but very low milage, after cleaining it was working like new one, with new orings. along with this breather tube vent valve (electronic one so called EVAP) also changed with new original valve with new tubes. so on Vacuum side there is only one UNCHANGED part its iron GASKETS on intake manifold (I bought it but found out that 350 and 450H have different) they remain the same.. but on smoke test there was no leak what so ever.

MAF - I tested car with ABSOLUTLY SURE working one from my friends car which has zero trims, more or less we are sure in MAF too

FUEL PREASURE - in this direction I changed rear fuel pump with ALL valves (preasure , return etc) fuel pump was used but working for sure as intended (I`m saying because after putting new part if everything remain the same.. with exact precise.. it wasn`t fault I guess , I also changed sending gauge (right side on passenger seat with new one) because my car doesnt have fuel vapor cannister and one of suspected areas was this sending gauge which has some kind of vapor cannister built inside (its European models only thing.. USA models have vapor cann). I also changed fuel pressure sensor on rail with also new one, even changed tube between sending gauge and pump because on low fuel I thought maybe that was pinched or clogged.

HPFP - will show on photo what I changed (all in red rectangle are new, including all o-rings) everything up spring remain same, I was unable to take them appart and plus this parts arent even sold.. i dont know what to buy.. on original one its THESE PARTS and fuel pump with spring etc. I even changed roller for Camshaft, but when you look at this pump if fuel leaks from main VALVE of pump there was no oring replaced there to hold this fuel not dilute oil)

INJECTORS - we took out all 12 injectors out and cleaned it with official dealer in Toyota Center on ultrasonic machine (becides I used injector cleaners 2-3 times), to be completly sure because dealer was not happy with 1 port injector I took all 6 used ones from 2019 Lexus RX with less then 30,000 miles, they look new, but to be 100% sure I checked ALL 12 ON EQUALITY OF SPRAY PATTERN, VOLUME, OHMS, THEY ARE EQUAL and NOT LEAKING, there is no possibility to test injectors in working conditions, especially direct ones because they originally operate in very high pressure which cant be replicated on stand, but they definitely been holding 700 PSI which is enough I think to say in such high leak to be detected, not leaking I mean ZERO DROPS, not 1-2 .. ZERO. we cleaned them on ultrasonic cleaner (i mean all 12 injectors), one small fact is that when putting direct injectors back I didn`t ordered orings (originally they must be replaced), I`m now thinking to replace them but super afraid that we may break them because plastic part of these injectors are super fragile.. if it needed to replace I may do this also.

<<<<Regarding Experiment>>>>
I tried this with removing PCV hose, even put oil catcher CAN in between from Japanese manufacturer for 150$ (not bad invest I think becides that it solved nothing), it makes sense that fuel fumes come to intake again. should I block both sides ? because during my experiment I took out hose but blocked only intake side because Air was presented to manifold and car started to lean out hugely without it. I havn`t tryied blocking both sides (I wont make a mess whatsoewher because there is no oil spitting because of oil catch can

and second question when I block PCV side there is also second vent in front of engine Bank1 with thicker hose should I block them simultaneously? and on both side or?... I have small symthom on this area.. when PCV valve open there is HISSING SOUND COMMING FROM INTAKE MANIFOLD INTAKE SIDE WHERE THIS HOSE GOES.. LIKE THERE IS EXCESIVE PREASURE GOING INTO INTAKE MANIFOLD, I checked and there is no leak even put silicone hose from sports shop and secured it super hard, there is no leak, air (or gas) is rushing through small intake pipe on intake manifold.

Exhaust leaks were one of suspected areas but as I understand it leans out mixtures not riching, and plus I changed all gaskets from CAT to ending. only remained area is exhaust manifold gaskets (very very very hard to replace and because of price I said no for now because symptoms didn`t match at all. I didn`t do smoke test on exhaust but blocked pipe with hands and no hissing coming from any exhaust area.

Regarding GS350 i`m mistaken, i meant 450H USA edition is okey, i have option locally to buy it is super expensive for experiment


One question: when fuel leaks inside fuel, does fuel pressure go up or down? fuel pressure fluctuation is common I think in this case which I experience.. from 2150 - 2550 on idle is not normal I think there is nothing to compare with... i`ve been begging on forums to give me fuel press pattern but none helped thats why I say that you are helping me a lot.. and thank you again.

One small remark.. I already have 1 year experience of this problem .. and you may imagine I hear when car is working okey with vibrations.. sounds.. ( I smiled when you said how does it sound when car goes to direct I even know when rhythm of this pump changed .. so long story short.. when with sound I hear that car is going super rich - VVTI VALVE from Bank 2 exhaust side starts to rattle a lot, but suddenly after 2-3 mins it goes away, when I have very diluted oil it gets worse.. I took out and checked all valves, cleaned and put back on, but unable to change filters for them along with head gaskets inside crankcase (all this parts, including vvti filters) went under engine cover from 2012. i think that because of diluted (lowered viscosity) oil car unable to maintain VVTI valve pressure and it start to rattle

now i`m thinking, i changed so many parts, we both come to HPFP maybe give it a try and replace it I have option from car with 50,000 miles on it for 150$

Lwerewolf

and second question when I block PCV side there is also second vent in front of engine Bank1 with thicker hose should I block them simultaneously? and on both side or?... I have small symthom on this area.. when PCV valve open there is HISSING SOUND COMMING FROM INTAKE MANIFOLD INTAKE SIDE WHERE THIS HOSE GOES.. LIKE THERE IS EXCESIVE PREASURE GOING INTO INTAKE MANIFOLD, I checked and there is no leak even put silicone hose from sports shop and secured it super hard, there is no leak, air (or gas) is rushing through small intake pipe on intake manifold. [/QUOTE]

The HPFP is on bank 1. I'll let you figure out whether or not fuel vapors might be getting into the intake from that vent over there.

iaposhka

but if fuel is mixed to oil fuel vapors can enter intake manifold both ways no? .. I mean PCV valve and this Bank1 vacuum hose ?... so Should I block them at the same time ?

Lwerewolf

...yes, as I said earlier, isolate the intake from both.

iaposhka

Sorry didnt got it.. English is not my native language. will try and record both injection methods

iaposhka

Good day,

I plan to make intake iaolate test this weekend but have one more observation today inspired by one video I watched on youtube:


my observation is that in my case vehicle load doeant go above 93.3% vehicle load (see screen attached of highest peak I could get on this metrics)

in calculation of this metrics two main sensors are participating as Im aware : MAF and MAP mainly. during full throttle push I get 0.210 volts on S2-s showing lean. hope this will help me..

on weekends I plan to make intake isolate test

Lwerewolf

The car also calibrates its MAF reading at idle. Could be that. You don't have a MAP. (EDIT: there is a MAP, "vacuum sensor" in the intake air surge tank a.k.a. the plastic part of the intake manifold)

One note about isolating the intake - I definitely wouldn't drive it like that daily, crankcase ventilation exists for a very good reason (funnily enough - mostly for performance AND reliability).