IS430 being discussed
11-15-03, 05:24 PM
#16
Lexus Champion
Originally posted by Turbo'd_Wxman
With all the talk of the IS430 and how wonderful it would be. Let me ask a question to you guys... If the V8 was the answer to power, then why did Toyota opt for the 2JZ engine in the Supra. The 2JZ engine is far and away the superior engine here. Honestly, if they take it out of the IS300 then our cars will go up in value. The enthusiast will never accept the V8 as the answer. They will turbo our engine and create a true beast.
With all the talk of the IS430 and how wonderful it would be. Let me ask a question to you guys... If the V8 was the answer to power, then why did Toyota opt for the 2JZ engine in the Supra. The 2JZ engine is far and away the superior engine here. Honestly, if they take it out of the IS300 then our cars will go up in value. The enthusiast will never accept the V8 as the answer. They will turbo our engine and create a true beast.
11-15-03, 06:17 PM
#17
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Originally posted by VVT-i
I agree with you. The I-6 engine will be gone because of the emission standard in Japan. So, the new IS or GS will be the V-6 with 330 engine ( along with the V-8).The I-6 3.0 is powerful and easy to upgrade than the V-6 or V-8 and the 2JZ engine can make a lot more HP at lower cost. I think 2-3 years from now people will be looking for the 01-04 IS like they're looking for the Supra TT.
I agree with you. The I-6 engine will be gone because of the emission standard in Japan. So, the new IS or GS will be the V-6 with 330 engine ( along with the V-8).The I-6 3.0 is powerful and easy to upgrade than the V-6 or V-8 and the 2JZ engine can make a lot more HP at lower cost. I think 2-3 years from now people will be looking for the 01-04 IS like they're looking for the Supra TT.
Last edited by Static911; 11-15-03 at 06:18 PM.
11-15-03, 08:31 PM
#18
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Originally posted by Static911
VVT-i, do not be swayed by the dark side! V-8 rules, along with automatic transmissions!
VVT-i, do not be swayed by the dark side! V-8 rules, along with automatic transmissions!
11-16-03, 03:43 AM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
Originally posted by Static911
VVT-i, do not be swayed by the dark side! V-8 rules, along with automatic transmissions!
VVT-i, do not be swayed by the dark side! V-8 rules, along with automatic transmissions!
The IS430 would make a nice daily driver. 2JZ-GTE power for the weekends.
11-16-03, 03:45 PM
#20
Originally posted by Turbo'd_Wxman
With all the talk of the IS430 and how wonderful it would be. Let me ask a question to you guys... If the V8 was the answer to power, then why did Toyota opt for the 2JZ engine in the Supra. The 2JZ engine is far and away the superior engine here. Honestly, if they take it out of the IS300 then our cars will go up in value. The enthusiast will never accept the V8 as the answer. They will turbo our engine and create a true beast.
With all the talk of the IS430 and how wonderful it would be. Let me ask a question to you guys... If the V8 was the answer to power, then why did Toyota opt for the 2JZ engine in the Supra. The 2JZ engine is far and away the superior engine here. Honestly, if they take it out of the IS300 then our cars will go up in value. The enthusiast will never accept the V8 as the answer. They will turbo our engine and create a true beast.
In terms of handling, the V-8 is much shorter in length than the I-6 by two cylinders. Due to the leverage, the amount of weight extended past the front axle is of more concern than the total weights compared. The V-8 has a lower profile, creating a lower center of gravity, the I-6 is much taller making it top heavy.
Efficiency is related to how the power is handled and put down, but whether it's a 6 or an 8 it still gonna take so much gas to produce 800 hp. The advantage to power is "turbocharging" not that it's a 2JZ. The
2JZ is long legged and has no low end making this unresponsive while the V-8 has a tremendous amount of low-end torque. This is not an older overhead valve type V-8 that we are accustomed to; it is a higher revving DOHC, which allows for a broader range of useable power.
Respectfully, I think it is you that is not accepting the V8... actually Toyota enthusiasts have already accepted this V-8 which is why it is the engine of choice for this 2003 season, JGTC Supras.
Sensei
11-17-03, 07:17 AM
#21
although in your situation/specific examples, the v motor has an advantage over the 2j, that is not the case in all situations
as you know, the I6 is a better balanced motor, and can be spun higher, which can counter act its lack of torque down low (compared to the v8). it also has 7 main caps instead of 5, more support, less load on more bearings and the GTE is a square motor as well, dimensionally
the block is made of cast iron instead of gas mileage friendly aluminum (and before you go off on an alloy tangent, the conversation was never about exotic alloys) which yields better to the abuse of racing because of its heat absorption properties and increased stability under higher heat.
if it were about weight or engine position, toyota would use the 4 and push the firewall back with it, so i think your JGTC example comes down to one thing, board torque range and power adders. i don't follow JGTC, so i can only speculate
the toyota 8's are not able to hold the power (nor were they designed to) that he 2jzgte does - stock for stock, you can build a race motor out of anything, but i truly appreciate the fact that i can go to the dealer and buy a short block for ~$2000 thats a race motor and will hold 800 to 900 horsepower
-gte
as you know, the I6 is a better balanced motor, and can be spun higher, which can counter act its lack of torque down low (compared to the v8). it also has 7 main caps instead of 5, more support, less load on more bearings and the GTE is a square motor as well, dimensionally
the block is made of cast iron instead of gas mileage friendly aluminum (and before you go off on an alloy tangent, the conversation was never about exotic alloys) which yields better to the abuse of racing because of its heat absorption properties and increased stability under higher heat.
if it were about weight or engine position, toyota would use the 4 and push the firewall back with it, so i think your JGTC example comes down to one thing, board torque range and power adders. i don't follow JGTC, so i can only speculate
the toyota 8's are not able to hold the power (nor were they designed to) that he 2jzgte does - stock for stock, you can build a race motor out of anything, but i truly appreciate the fact that i can go to the dealer and buy a short block for ~$2000 thats a race motor and will hold 800 to 900 horsepower
-gte
Originally posted by Choritsu-shi
I may be able to answer your question... As much as I admire the 2JZ , I clearly disagree... IMO, from a performance perspective, the 3UZ-FE has many advantages over the 2JZ. If the 2JZ is "far and away superior" then why has it not been their choice to use for racing? Honestly, whatever size engine Toyota makes, it will be above average, that's for sure. I think it's safe to say the majority of Toyota performance enthusiast would also choose their 4cylinder engines above all, due to the proven history and for a cost per hp value.
In terms of handling, the V-8 is much shorter in length than the I-6 by two cylinders. Due to the leverage, the amount of weight extended past the front axle is of more concern than the total weights compared. The V-8 has a lower profile, creating a lower center of gravity, the I-6 is much taller making it top heavy.
Efficiency is related to how the power is handled and put down, but whether it's a 6 or an 8 it still gonna take so much gas to produce 800 hp. The advantage to power is "turbocharging" not that it's a 2JZ. The
2JZ is long legged and has no low end making this unresponsive while the V-8 has a tremendous amount of low-end torque. This is not an older overhead valve type V-8 that we are accustomed to; it is a higher revving DOHC, which allows for a broader range of useable power.
Respectfully, I think it is you that is not accepting the V8... actually Toyota enthusiasts have already accepted this V-8 which is why it is the engine of choice for this 2003 season, JGTC Supras.
Sensei
I may be able to answer your question... As much as I admire the 2JZ , I clearly disagree... IMO, from a performance perspective, the 3UZ-FE has many advantages over the 2JZ. If the 2JZ is "far and away superior" then why has it not been their choice to use for racing? Honestly, whatever size engine Toyota makes, it will be above average, that's for sure. I think it's safe to say the majority of Toyota performance enthusiast would also choose their 4cylinder engines above all, due to the proven history and for a cost per hp value.
In terms of handling, the V-8 is much shorter in length than the I-6 by two cylinders. Due to the leverage, the amount of weight extended past the front axle is of more concern than the total weights compared. The V-8 has a lower profile, creating a lower center of gravity, the I-6 is much taller making it top heavy.
Efficiency is related to how the power is handled and put down, but whether it's a 6 or an 8 it still gonna take so much gas to produce 800 hp. The advantage to power is "turbocharging" not that it's a 2JZ. The
2JZ is long legged and has no low end making this unresponsive while the V-8 has a tremendous amount of low-end torque. This is not an older overhead valve type V-8 that we are accustomed to; it is a higher revving DOHC, which allows for a broader range of useable power.
Respectfully, I think it is you that is not accepting the V8... actually Toyota enthusiasts have already accepted this V-8 which is why it is the engine of choice for this 2003 season, JGTC Supras.
Sensei
11-17-03, 11:49 PM
#24
Originally posted by Turbo'd_Wxman
With all the talk of the IS430 and how wonderful it would be. Let me ask a question to you guys... If the V8 was the answer to power, then why did Toyota opt for the 2JZ engine in the Supra. The 2JZ engine is far and away the superior engine here. Honestly, if they take it out of the IS300 then our cars will go up in value. The enthusiast will never accept the V8 as the answer. They will turbo our engine and create a true beast.
With all the talk of the IS430 and how wonderful it would be. Let me ask a question to you guys... If the V8 was the answer to power, then why did Toyota opt for the 2JZ engine in the Supra. The 2JZ engine is far and away the superior engine here. Honestly, if they take it out of the IS300 then our cars will go up in value. The enthusiast will never accept the V8 as the answer. They will turbo our engine and create a true beast.
the reason for the v8 in the car is for reliability and also the smoothness of the ride. turbo can definitely get tons of power, i wont' doubt that, but it won't have as smooth of a ride as the v8 for sure. and the low end power of the v8 is just nice imho.
i didn't understand the power of v8 in the past too, but after igot my gs4, man, do i need that many cylinders
11-17-03, 11:56 PM
#25
damn so much good and nice information in this thread, awesome 
i have a question though. a lot of people have tried tremendous power on the gte engine, but i don't really see anyone trying to do the same thing on the v8 engine. so just how much power can the stock v8 hold? i think that would be a fair stock to stock comparison. i know todd at tmengineering they put a lot of power in their v8 sc400 race car and the engine held up all the way.
it would be a nice comparison
i have a question though. a lot of people have tried tremendous power on the gte engine, but i don't really see anyone trying to do the same thing on the v8 engine. so just how much power can the stock v8 hold? i think that would be a fair stock to stock comparison. i know todd at tmengineering they put a lot of power in their v8 sc400 race car and the engine held up all the way.
it would be a nice comparison
11-18-03, 01:13 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
Originally posted by rominl
damn so much good and nice information in this thread, awesome
i have a question though. a lot of people have tried tremendous power on the gte engine, but i don't really see anyone trying to do the same thing on the v8 engine. so just how much power can the stock v8 hold? i think that would be a fair stock to stock comparison. i know todd at tmengineering they put a lot of power in their v8 sc400 race car and the engine held up all the way.
it would be a nice comparison
damn so much good and nice information in this thread, awesome
i have a question though. a lot of people have tried tremendous power on the gte engine, but i don't really see anyone trying to do the same thing on the v8 engine. so just how much power can the stock v8 hold? i think that would be a fair stock to stock comparison. i know todd at tmengineering they put a lot of power in their v8 sc400 race car and the engine held up all the way.
it would be a nice comparison
Don't quote me in this though.
11-18-03, 01:30 PM
#27
Originally posted by IS300GTE
although in your situation/specific examples, the v motor has an advantage over the 2j, that is not the case in all situations
as you know, the I6 is a better balanced motor, and can be spun higher, which can counter act its lack of torque down low (compared to the v8). it also has 7 main caps instead of 5, more support, less load on more bearings and the GTE is a square motor as well, dimensionally
the block is made of cast iron instead of gas mileage friendly aluminum (and before you go off on an alloy tangent, the conversation was never about exotic alloys) which yields better to the abuse of racing because of its heat absorption properties and increased stability under higher heat.
if it were about weight or engine position, toyota would use the 4 and push the firewall back with it, so i think your JGTC example comes down to one thing, board torque range and power adders. i don't follow JGTC, so i can only speculate
the toyota 8's are not able to hold the power (nor were they designed to) that he 2jzgte does - stock for stock, you can build a race motor out of anything, but i truly appreciate the fact that i can go to the dealer and buy a short block for ~$2000 thats a race motor and will hold 800 to 900 horsepower
-gte
although in your situation/specific examples, the v motor has an advantage over the 2j, that is not the case in all situations
as you know, the I6 is a better balanced motor, and can be spun higher, which can counter act its lack of torque down low (compared to the v8). it also has 7 main caps instead of 5, more support, less load on more bearings and the GTE is a square motor as well, dimensionally
the block is made of cast iron instead of gas mileage friendly aluminum (and before you go off on an alloy tangent, the conversation was never about exotic alloys) which yields better to the abuse of racing because of its heat absorption properties and increased stability under higher heat.
if it were about weight or engine position, toyota would use the 4 and push the firewall back with it, so i think your JGTC example comes down to one thing, board torque range and power adders. i don't follow JGTC, so i can only speculate
the toyota 8's are not able to hold the power (nor were they designed to) that he 2jzgte does - stock for stock, you can build a race motor out of anything, but i truly appreciate the fact that i can go to the dealer and buy a short block for ~$2000 thats a race motor and will hold 800 to 900 horsepower
-gte
okay, if you say so. "dimensionally the block is made of cast iron instead of gas mileage friendly aluminum..." I'm not going to argue this, but I will suggest you do some research. The beneficial properties of a cast iron block is out numbered and out dated compared with aluminum blocks. You will find that aluminum blocks are widely used is racing today.
JGTC racing plays a major role in the development for Japanese automobile manufacturers. For years Toyota has used their proven 4 cylinders in the Supra's. This is why I consider their decision to use the 3UZ-FE (the same aluminum block you can buy from a dealer) instead, is of great significance. You may be more familiar with the Indy cars... which btw, use aluminum V-8's as well. Though not the 3UZ-FE, it does say something when comparing the differences of a V-8 vs. an I-6. Just to add, you may also consider that Toyota's Formula One cars, they use an aluminum 3.0 liter V-10!
"One must remember... to look both ways before crossing the street"
Sensei
11-18-03, 03:03 PM
#28
the I6 is perfectly balanced, thats part of its inherent design, same is the V12 (two I6's) . by design and piston/rod position, it is perfectly balanced. have you ever seen balance shafts on an I6? i don't think that i have ever seen that, on even the poorly designed american made I6's from the 70s and 80s.
the comment about being able to spin them higher, to replace the low end torque was directed at the fact that if your power band starts at 5.5k, you can spin the motor to 8.5 or 9k, and when shifted, it is still in its power band, or sweet spot. i don't care if my car has 10 or 1000 pound feet of torque at idle/less than 5mph, as long as it gets me up the driveway, available torque is completely inconsequential, torque used is what matters, and even the 1960's beetle, with ~40lb/tq could get up just about any driveway ever asphalted
the GTE is 100% a square motor, maybe you misinterpreted, otherwise i'm a bit disappointed in you. the bore and stroke are 86mm x 86mm equating to a square motor. that is one (of many) reasons that it is stronger than the 7m, it may have less torque than the 7m, but it is stronger.
the main cap is a very potent point, i guess you could not appreciate it unless you have had issues with it. you ask any american car owner (mustang, camaro or firebird) how much it sucks when you push the crank through the oil pan and onto the subframe or ground, because those 5 mains couldn't hold the power that the rest of the motor was making
the racing blocks are an aluminum alloy, not your standard off of the shelf aluminum factory cast crap block, like the one that would come in the gs400/430, which is why the 2j cast iron block is superior to the cast aluminum block of the later 400's and 430's. it is far superior in almost all heat categorizations
if production resources have no ceiling, a racing aluminum alloy can be made to support the horsepower that is limited by most classes in racing. i'd like to see that ls430 aluminum block hold 1700hp, like the 2j blocks that bullish racing has.
an exagerated example of this is the high hp hondas, they sleeve their blocks with steel sleeves in an attempt to strengthen them
-gte
the comment about being able to spin them higher, to replace the low end torque was directed at the fact that if your power band starts at 5.5k, you can spin the motor to 8.5 or 9k, and when shifted, it is still in its power band, or sweet spot. i don't care if my car has 10 or 1000 pound feet of torque at idle/less than 5mph, as long as it gets me up the driveway, available torque is completely inconsequential, torque used is what matters, and even the 1960's beetle, with ~40lb/tq could get up just about any driveway ever asphalted
the GTE is 100% a square motor, maybe you misinterpreted, otherwise i'm a bit disappointed in you. the bore and stroke are 86mm x 86mm equating to a square motor. that is one (of many) reasons that it is stronger than the 7m, it may have less torque than the 7m, but it is stronger.
the main cap is a very potent point, i guess you could not appreciate it unless you have had issues with it. you ask any american car owner (mustang, camaro or firebird) how much it sucks when you push the crank through the oil pan and onto the subframe or ground, because those 5 mains couldn't hold the power that the rest of the motor was making
the racing blocks are an aluminum alloy, not your standard off of the shelf aluminum factory cast crap block, like the one that would come in the gs400/430, which is why the 2j cast iron block is superior to the cast aluminum block of the later 400's and 430's. it is far superior in almost all heat categorizations
if production resources have no ceiling, a racing aluminum alloy can be made to support the horsepower that is limited by most classes in racing. i'd like to see that ls430 aluminum block hold 1700hp, like the 2j blocks that bullish racing has.
an exagerated example of this is the high hp hondas, they sleeve their blocks with steel sleeves in an attempt to strengthen them
-gte
Originally posted by Choritsu-shi
I can understand your argument here, but...better balanced??? I don't know about that. The ability to spin higher does not replace low end torque. You either have it or you don't. This can easily be felt when cautiously trying to drive up a very steep and narrow driveway. 7 main caps or 5... who cares, I don't think that's relevent. One can easily say that equals more friction more heat. ...the GTE is a square motor??? okay, if you say so.
"dimensionally the block is made of cast iron instead of gas mileage friendly aluminum..." I'm not going to argue this, but I will suggest you do some research. The beneficial properties of a cast iron block is out numbered and out dated compared with aluminum blocks. You will find that aluminum blocks are widely used is racing today.
JGTC racing plays a major role in the development for Japanese automobile manufacturers. For years Toyota has used their proven 4 cylinders in the Supra's. This is why I consider their decision to use the 3UZ-FE (the same aluminum block you can buy from a dealer) instead, is of great significance. You may be more familiar with the Indy cars... which btw, use aluminum V-8's as well. Though not the 3UZ-FE, it does say something when comparing the differences of a V-8 vs. an I-6. Just to add, you may also consider that Toyota's Formula One cars, they use an aluminum 3.0 liter V-10!
"One must remember... to look both ways before crossing the street"
Sensei
I can understand your argument here, but...better balanced??? I don't know about that. The ability to spin higher does not replace low end torque. You either have it or you don't. This can easily be felt when cautiously trying to drive up a very steep and narrow driveway. 7 main caps or 5... who cares, I don't think that's relevent. One can easily say that equals more friction more heat. ...the GTE is a square motor???
okay, if you say so. "dimensionally the block is made of cast iron instead of gas mileage friendly aluminum..." I'm not going to argue this, but I will suggest you do some research. The beneficial properties of a cast iron block is out numbered and out dated compared with aluminum blocks. You will find that aluminum blocks are widely used is racing today.
JGTC racing plays a major role in the development for Japanese automobile manufacturers. For years Toyota has used their proven 4 cylinders in the Supra's. This is why I consider their decision to use the 3UZ-FE (the same aluminum block you can buy from a dealer) instead, is of great significance. You may be more familiar with the Indy cars... which btw, use aluminum V-8's as well. Though not the 3UZ-FE, it does say something when comparing the differences of a V-8 vs. an I-6. Just to add, you may also consider that Toyota's Formula One cars, they use an aluminum 3.0 liter V-10!
"One must remember... to look both ways before crossing the street"
Sensei
11-18-03, 03:43 PM
#29
here is some reading for everyone, all posts are google caches so that you can scroll right to the pertinent information, as it is highlighted for you
a square motor defined
link showing the 2j motor meets the criteria to be a "square motor"
undersquare motor defined (about halfway down the page
taken from this site http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8
another link supporting my balance theory (i could go on and on but i won't)
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache...n&ie=UTF-8</a>
a link to the problem of having less main caps than cylinders, and excerpt taken from that site
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache...n&ie=UTF-8</a>
i could post links supporting my cast iron vs aluminum block theory as well, but you all get the idea, you should read up on this yourself, and find your own links as well, so you aren't just going off my information, but the information that you find on your own. sensei, check out those links, let me know if you change your opinion, want to redefine your statement, or just aren't sure
having said that, toyota could not make a production motor superior to the 2jzgte, unless of course they made the 4jzgte by melding two 2jzgte blocks/cranks and such together. maybe they'll take my idea and put it in the next gen supra
-gte
a square motor defined
link showing the 2j motor meets the criteria to be a "square motor"
undersquare motor defined (about halfway down the page
taken from this site http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8
60° V6 versus Inline-6
As space efficiency becomes more and more important, most car makers favour V6. The most influential V6 was perhaps Alfa Romeo’s 2.5-litre 60° V6 used in the GTV6. It established a reputation for V6 that it can be compact, powerful and smooth. An equivalent inline-6 would have never fit the small and sloping engine compartment of that car. Compare the shape of BMW with the Alfa and you’ll know the packaging advantage of V6s.
Straight-six engines are nearly impossible to be used in front-wheel drive cars as well. Even a car as wide as Volvo S80 has to introduce the world’s shortest gearbox in order to make space for the 2.9-litre straight-six mounted transversely in the engine compartment.
Longitudinal mounted inline-6 doesn’t have such problems, but it engages too much space in north-south direction, thus engage some space which would have contributed to cockpit room.
However, BMW is still loyal to inline-6 engines. Ultimately, inline-6 engine is more efficient yet smoother. V6 has more energy loss because it duplicates valve gears and camshafts (which increase frictional loss), while the use of 2 cylinder banks leads to more heat loss. In terms of production cost, although V6 has 3 fewer main bearings, it has more valve gears - which is getting more and more costly these days, with the introduction of twin-cam, hydraulic tappets / finger follower and variable valve timing. Inline-6 is going to be cheaper than equivalent V6.
As space efficiency becomes more and more important, most car makers favour V6. The most influential V6 was perhaps Alfa Romeo’s 2.5-litre 60° V6 used in the GTV6. It established a reputation for V6 that it can be compact, powerful and smooth. An equivalent inline-6 would have never fit the small and sloping engine compartment of that car. Compare the shape of BMW with the Alfa and you’ll know the packaging advantage of V6s.
Straight-six engines are nearly impossible to be used in front-wheel drive cars as well. Even a car as wide as Volvo S80 has to introduce the world’s shortest gearbox in order to make space for the 2.9-litre straight-six mounted transversely in the engine compartment.
Longitudinal mounted inline-6 doesn’t have such problems, but it engages too much space in north-south direction, thus engage some space which would have contributed to cockpit room.
However, BMW is still loyal to inline-6 engines. Ultimately, inline-6 engine is more efficient yet smoother. V6 has more energy loss because it duplicates valve gears and camshafts (which increase frictional loss), while the use of 2 cylinder banks leads to more heat loss. In terms of production cost, although V6 has 3 fewer main bearings, it has more valve gears - which is getting more and more costly these days, with the introduction of twin-cam, hydraulic tappets / finger follower and variable valve timing. Inline-6 is going to be cheaper than equivalent V6.
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache...n&ie=UTF-8</a>
a link to the problem of having less main caps than cylinders, and excerpt taken from that site
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache...n&ie=UTF-8</a>
However further reading will show that the actual strength of the block has never been a problem as the main cause of serious V8 engine failure is due to the lack of main bearing cap stability.
having said that, toyota could not make a production motor superior to the 2jzgte, unless of course they made the 4jzgte by melding two 2jzgte blocks/cranks and such together. maybe they'll take my idea and put it in the next gen supra
-gte
11-18-03, 07:57 PM
#30
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally posted by IS300GTE
having said that, toyota could not make a production motor superior to the 2jzgte, unless of course they made the 4jzgte by melding two 2jzgte blocks/cranks and such together. maybe they'll take my idea and put it in the next gen supra
-gte
having said that, toyota could not make a production motor superior to the 2jzgte, unless of course they made the 4jzgte by melding two 2jzgte blocks/cranks and such together. maybe they'll take my idea and put it in the next gen supra
-gte