GlobeCLK

iTrader: (5)

The M3 badge's 3 falling off and rolling on the ground

The Truth

The old E36 M3 stickered at $36,XXX for the 95s and topped $44,000 for the last of the 99s before the new E46 M3 debuted. As for the new M3, I cannot really comment. In all honesty there's a good amount of resentment towards BMW from the E36 M3 camp for not bringing the 320hp euro engine over for our bodystyle, and then packaging a similarly-powered engine into a heavier bodystyle and calling it "all new." From all reports, it's slower than a SC E36 M3, and loses badly to the turbos. Plus, there doesn't seem, as of now, to be much that can be done with the E46. Time will have to tell on that one.

Never heard of such failure. I suppose anything is possible, of course, with the proper mix of constant thrashing and neglect, but the same is true of any car. The BMW will last as long as any Lexus, but the difference is that it will cost more to do so. And, if one deals only with BMW dealers and their service departments, it will cost more to do so than anyone should have to pay, and probably more than the car is worth in the longterm. Once one can find a reputable shop that knows what it is doing, the cost is worlds easier to bear, and actually becomes quite reasonable. But again, I am talking of the 3-series, specifically the E36 3-series of which I have considerable experience. I cannot comment on the 5/7, nor the new E46 3-series as I have no experience.

I will be the last person in the world to argue with that logic. It does not, however, reflect the logic of the majority of car buyers who would never consider modifying their cars, the heathens. Instead, they pay more for a car that does more without having to resort to mods, and leave it at that. Plus, the BMW has the option of a 5-speed in every one of their cars. Each to his own, but I am not a fan of automatics, not people that drive them and call themselves enthusiasts......but that's just me. I need to row my own, to be able to clutch down a gear and blast past someone who deserves it is one of my guilty pleasures. I also found it a total joke that the IS300 comes lauded as Lexus' "3-series killer" and was only available in automatic - laughable at best. However, I look forward to seeing what the new 5-speed is all about. If it's going to compete, it better be a slick little shifter.

And, of those three you list above, the only one that I agree with 100% is the quality - not of the materials, but of the build quality, which can be notoriously bad in a lot of BMWs. I have heard various complaints of substandard materials in Japanese cars, but never that they start falling off the car. You cannot touch the Japanese for build quality (barring the few lemons that any maker produces, of course).

It's late, and when I first read this I thought "WTF? If a 330i beats HIM then he should be ashamed of himself," but that was before I re-read and saw that you have the 300 (not a flame, just my dumb tired *** not being able to read). Any plans to turbo yours? Did that one come in stick? Have you run it at any tracks?

Also, I again chose my words poorly. I meant the 3-series is the standard for small sport sedans, just as the 5-series is the standard for midsize sport sedans. And it's not me who chose the standard, it's the car rags, every time I pick one up they're comparing one car or another to a BMW, and the BMW rarely loses. However I would not and will not use that as a trump card in a discussion because car mags and their numbers don't have any bearing on the real world. It is the individual cars (one stock M3 sedan recently ran a 13.9, and I watched a stock Lightning put down a 12.9 at the local track, so mag numbers mean ****) and, most importantly, their drivers that decide the outcome of any given street contest.

I'm young too - well, young ish, if sub-thirty is still young (I know it's not). But I've been around enough to know that the machine is only part of the equation. What's the clichee again? "What is power without control" ???

Right now, using your criteria, it doesn't look to be an m3:

http://www.activeautowerke.com/cars/...ct/default.asp

From what I know of this succint little nightmare, it has over 400hp to the rear wheels before the NOS. It is also scary, scary fast, from all reports, but I won't know myself until I travel with this gentleman to HIN in York, Pa., when I shall see for myself. I understand people may question the particular BMW model in use, but ask yourself who the hell would suspect it? Plus its diminutive size makes it all the faster.

Of course, everything in this car could be placed into an M3 with straighline performance probably suffering, and handling capabilities probably increasing. As for the hands-down fastest, highest-HP M3 out there that is still an M3, I honestly don't know. I'll check. I can say now that it nowhere near the output of the modified turbo supras, however, so don't think I'm falling into that trap!

*Yawwwn*...I'm out. I can't believe it's 6:30 am. Have a good night, Globe. I have one more post to answer, and It's bedtime!

The Truth

http://www.activeautowerke

As stated, every single OBDI Gen 3 turbo M3 that has rolled out of Active Autowerke. Also as stated, there are quite a few of them victimizing the streets here in America - how many, again, of those HKS IS300s are on our soil? I doubt even one, but I don't know much about the IS300 turbo, and don't like speaking from ignorance.

glex

dont get me wrong M3 is nice and fast car as it comes stock and i dont want to take a way anytning(i use to own 97 4dr m3 ) but the thread begon with 330vs is300 not m3vs is300 ....

and yes i will take and i took IS300.

and i again i use to own diferent bmw from m3,3 series conv to 3 diferent 5 series and quality and service wise Lexus way ahead.i dont have make appointmant a week in advance to have service done in BMW and then for any litle think i need getting rip off at the dealer.

The Truth

Yep - and it was when the M3 and IS300 started being compared that I stepped in and said that it was a ridiculous comparison. The two cars are nowhere near each other in price, function or performance. Comparing the IS300 to the new M3 is just as inane.

No arguments there - customer service at any given BMW dealership is deplorable. Not only do they act like they're doing you a favor by selling you the damn car, they rarely, if ever, live up t their promise of delivering a BMW while it's in for service. Lexus and Infiniti have lured more than one irate BMW owner away from the marque for that reason alone, and it is also why my car doesn't see the dealer unless its for warrantee work. With the exception of my dealer, who is one of the honorable few, and who also sells the new M3 at sticker (which can in fact be had for less than $50,000, but not so after tax.title and reg), BMW dealers universally suck ***.

BTW Lex, nice car- best color for the IS300, IMHO. Here's my M3:

http://www.ziplink.net/~ctroiane/fin.html

Justice

The 2jzgte can be put in an IS300 for 9000. with TT around 16,000 with 100cc fuel injectors and every other possable mod "stage 3" that plus 34,000 base comes to 50,000 bucks for a 650 rwhp car.

BMW M5 , i here 70-110k and thay have 400hp stock. If the M3 is over 50 grand than for a drag car the is300 is better, but you know what? the supra MKIV is still better than any other and thats not biased at all. it is the origanal holder of the 2JZGTE TT and is the cheapest to mod up to 650 RWHP.

I am simply giving the facts. flame me at your own discreation.

here is proof. simply read.

http://www.powerhouseracing.com

-Keep Hope Alive-

-Justice

The Truth

Justice, want to laugh? There is major dissent on one of the online BMW boards because one of the most prominent members has decided that he needs 900 RWHP in his M3, and simply cannot get that type of HP out of the BMW 3.2L - take a guess what engine is going into his car....[chuckle]....it basically started a civil war. As for me, I'm on the fence, while I don't think that engine belongs in an M3, I can't argue with the insanity of the power if that's the only intent. It should be interesting, to say the least.

I don't think anyone is going to argue with you that the MKIV Supra Turbo is the undisputed heavyweight king of aftermarket tuning, well, not anyone with any sense.

GlobeCLK

iTrader: (5)

The Truth, does that guys' replacement engine begins with "2JZ"?

Months ago I've read a Japanese magazine featuring a 96 325i in Japan, with engine swap to the previous generation 89~93 Supra turbo engine 7M-GTE. Looks funny as heck but it's suppose to be pretty fast.

IS300 = 3 series killer? I haven't heard that one yet. I guess that statement was made about a year and 1/2 ago, before Lexus had the IS300, and people thought Toyota/Lexus was going to use the RACE ENGINE 3S-GE with 6-speed on the Altezza RS200 as the new IS. 3S-GE is Toyota's best engine in terms of N/A tune, and equipped with the 6-speed it can take out every 3 except for M3. Too bad Toyota people were influenced by the fact that Americans like larger displacement and then dropped the DOESN'T BELONG THERE 2JZ.

What I'm saying is that I've raced a 330i before and it's only slightly faster than my car (automatic also), so I wouldn't consider that a model for sport sedans if it's barely faster than a 4000 lb. GS. I have to agree tho, alot of small sporty sedans these days were designed with making the 3 series sedan as the main competition. I believe IS is not an exception.

I plan on turboing my car (again the reason not getting a 400). Still debating which method while I save up for it. Considering it's a 4 door N/A Supra, when I'm done it should be fun.

If you're interested in seeing a monster GS300 please contact V300 on ClubLexus.

And I will reiterate, Car mags all suck when it comes to comparisons. They REALLY do. (At least the NAME BRANDS like MT, C&D, R&T.)

Back to IS300 vs 330i (after a BBBBBIIIIIIIIGGGGGG deviation), it's really up to the driver to testdrive or maybe live for a while. Just by looking you can't see the handling and power of the 330, and can't see the qualiy and service of the IS300.


nice car TT, are those HREs?

lexusnexus

Let's just put an end to this finally....M3 = overpriced and just plain pain in the *** to deal with for dealers mark-ups...$73,000....what f*%kin joke ! If you pay that much for a car that has such weak longevity and **** poor service reliability...you either are a) an idiot with a small weiner and trying to compensate for it or b) a Prince from Saudi Arabia, either way you buy the car just cause you need the validation that you can........., and furthermore, word on the other forums I have checked, as well as actual owners, M5 has big reliability isues for that over priced piece of poo .............new off the lot I paid way less than half the cost of that stupidly marked up M3, for a car that has an engine with an awesome track record, and a manufacturer which produces cars that last a very, very long time....BMW's will always be for the drivers who have to prove then can afford to pay to much for a status symbol that just perpetuates itself...like the marketing for a Rolex watch.....there a great product, people just think there they only one of its kind, because they market the crap out of them.......silly BMW owners, you just never learn, overpriced BMW's are for kids that don't know.....

GS4Will

two of my college class mates from the 80s were so HAPPY when they found good jobs in the 90s and got themselves 2 m3s. both cars failed at 45-50k miles mark. both had rattling problem big time, both cars had smoke came out of engine bay. one of the A/Cs also failed in arizona heat, another's covertible has leaky roof. is this what you get from the so-called ultimate driving machine after spending over $40k? please keep in mind, the 2 guys are mellow engineers who do not abuse their m3s and had their cars took cared by the dealers.

my first car, a 79 honda accord, was still running strong in 1992 w/150k miles, cool a/c, minimal care( did not know much about cars, and had no $$ back then). the guy who bought it from me put another 100k miles , total 250k miles, 4 owners, original engine, gear box, COOL A/C.

if bmws are so great, why there are constantly ex-beemers jump ship to lex( i actually lost count in this board). these are used to be hard-core bmw lovers who owned m-series, 540-6....., no more. even bmw execs stated in his press release that bmw still has a LONG way to go before the co can match the quality provided by toyota.

the IS, $35k out the door.

try this:

www.donotbuyabmw.com

read what the guy says after emptied out $60k for an m3.

The Truth

Call me Chris, it's easier. Also, the rest of my online site is

http://www.bahnstormers.com - it's a hack job, but a fun hobby nonetheless.

[chuckle]....can you imagine the dissent among the BMW "purist" ranks? It honestly sparked an online civil war. The gentleman in question works for a shop called Altered Atmosphere, and is expecting 900 RWHP. With that kind of power, I don't even think you could still call the result a "Car" in the normal sense, and I suspect by the time the rest of the mods needed to handle the power are finished, you're not really going to be calling that monster a BMW either! I did think that you would find that piece of info interesting, I know I sure did.

On a common-lamentation note, the American car market sucks. Bigtime. I wish we had half the cars available in Japan, or that the manufacturers saw fit to import their best to our shores. We, the enthusiasts, really get hosed by what is perceived to be the majority...but so be it. It makes our task more fun, and more rewarding, whether one mods for show or for go (I prefer go myself, but it's hard to find the reward in modding an OBDII M3)

The first test drive article I read was titled "IS300: Lexus Decodes the BMW Genome" All of the articles I'd read about the car had it pegged as "The 3-series fighter" or "out to dethrone the 3-series," "Lexus takes aim at BMW's 3-series," I cannot believe you've never heard the two compared. Ever? For the year or so leading up to its debut, again during its debut, and consistantly since, it's become quite the also-ran comparo. I'll check around my own "archives" and see what I can find, but once I started making my own money I stopped reading as much and started driving. Let me check, I've already casually asked the experts what the highest HP M3/3.2L M engine makes.


On a common-lamentation note, the American car market sucks. Bigtime. I wish we had half the cars available in Japan, or that the manufacturers saw fit to import their best to our shores. We, the enthusiasts, really get hosed by what is perceived to be the majority...but so be it. It makes our task more fun, and more rewarding, whether one mods for show or for go (I prefer go myself, but it's hard to find the reward in modding an OBDII M3 until one gives up the farce and finally goes for forced induction).


Agreed 100% - you do see, in my previous posts, where I fully denounce them, and their validity, yes? Do let me know when you've completed the conversion, okay? I want to be far away from you once you start picking on the hapless 5-series owners, although I might send an AA turbo your way just to keep you honest

I am definitely checking out V300. If he's running what I think he's running then he's probably one scarily fast individual. What does he run in the 1/4?? Heh...do I even want know....

Hmm...yes, agreed. In a choice of those two, I'd say lease the 330CI. Get the power and handling, and the beautiful E46 coupe bodystyle (of course just my IMHO), and the maintenence program will cover all costs on the car for 3/36,000 - at least the life of the lease. Then take the money saved (over buying it) and invest it, or spend it on life's necessities like high-end home audio or swiss wristwatches. Plus I find the IS300 dash a totaly failed attempt at ingenuity, if you want a Breitling, buy a Breitling, and keep the dash uncluttered and easy to read

17" 547, very good eye. By the time I started thinking about new wheels, I had done too many go-fast mods to the car, and didn't want to negate them all by going to a heavy, 18" wheel. 19" s aren't my style either, so I went with 17.8 lb 17"S....and the performance difference of dropping the unsprung weight was nicely surprising, although I had to relearn my launch technique because I was just lighting them up and going nowhere. At first. I went with the BMW center cap because I wanted only those who knew to appreciate them, and didn't want any fool who knew "HREs are expensive," but not what they look like, to decide to try and steal them.

The Truth

http://www.bmwpeabody.com

My dealer. $50,000 out the door, stripped of course, and after tax/title/registration. One of the good dealers, that doesn't participate in the gouging of the contemptible California clowns. As for poor longevity and ****-poor reliability, I don't know how that can be said since the car's been available for less than a year, but all early reports do point to your being correct. I would never buy the first-year run of a car anyway, especially not the new M3, that I believe BMW rushed to market to quell the unrest of those who hated the waiting. Bad move. But your longevity and reliability argument is nil in regards to the previous M3s, there are a few E30 M3s running around with 200,000 on the clock, daily driven, as well as 95 E36 M3s on the road with over 150,000 miles. If you take care of the car, it lasts. Whatever horror stories you've heard, they're just that - horror stories that do not necessarily reflect the experienc of the majority.

BMWs? Overpriced? Sure, as long as the market will bear it, which will be forever. There will always be a market for percieved exclusivity, something Toyota capitalized upon when it introduced the Lexus marque. How sad that you hate on BMW for being better at it, and commanding a greater premium for a name - not to mention, again, that their cars are impeccably balanced and sport-oriented off the showroom floor, not something Lexus can claim, but not something they're terribly interested in. The higher the performance, the more you pay - QED.

And you drive what? It must be a monster Lexus, if you see fit to comare it to the E46 M3, I didn't know of any Lexus that could be compared, in intelligent conversation, to that car's performance. [shrug]...The Honda Accord is even less money than the M3 as well, but I don't see anyone comparing THAT car to the M3. But then, I'm talking to stock-to-stock, of a car's capability off the showroom floor. In that respect, there is not one wallowy Lexus that can hang. Period.

Yawn. Useless attempts at inflammatory statements are equally childish. But I do agree that, like the Rolex, the BMW is a great product. Can't argue with that.

The Truth

I can name any number of daily-driven and utterly thrashed M3s that have given nothing but perfect joy and reliability over their considerable years of ownership with the only demand being impeccable upkeep. LOL, and tires. I cannot explain your friend's poor examples, and can only offer that such lemons detract from any given car manufacturer's reputation. Failed at 45-50K? That's crazy. If that's the truth (and I do not doubt your veracity for one minute), then I understand your hatred for BMW. I would despise them as well (and I do their dealers, at least most of them).

Was there any joy in ownership or was it an A-B car? Talk to any 2002 owner, of which there are many on the road, and he'll preface the discussion with a smile as wide as his ears - something I've never seen when referencing the 79 Honda Accord, save maybe for its frugality. How many of them are on the road now? That haven't completely rusted through? A bit less, I suspect, than the number of 2002s...but then the 2002 has achieved cult car status. Not too many spend their time restoring 79 Accords.

I know one reason - the jerkoff dealers. Quite simply, they suck. BMW does indeed have a long way to go before they can match Toyota's quality, but why should they when their owners are willing to pay up? BMW succeeds in such a niche market that they don't need any more customers, every car sells at sticker or higher, because if you don't want the car at that price, someone else most certainly does. The 2-year wait list for the E46 M3 in spite of its negative press speaks for itself (LOL both about BMWs success and the fervent worship of their would-be drivers. For every one they lose, two more springs forth, Hydra-style, to take his/her place).

I am familiar with Amir's site, as is, I'm sure, most of the online community. Were I treated that way by my dealer, I too would demand satisfaction and employ all means at my disposal to achieve it. But then, I have no problems admitting that BMW dealers are absolute scum 95% of the time. As for the reliability of the E46 M3, I feel BMW released the car before its time - there are too many reports of infuriating problems to trust that car at this time. Make mine a 2003/2004 - by then, I think, the car should be worthwhile. And until then, I have my E36 M3, which brings me more happiness than any car I've owned to date. Plus the chicks dig it :P

RiCeBoY300

IMO, i think that the IS300 has more potential to be a faster car than the m3 or the 330ci, cuz the engine is so big an has so much room under the hood. and it is a less expensive car than the 2. and i havent seen to many extemely modded Bimmers. i hear Bimmers are supposed to be a blast to drive. so if u want a fast luxury car that u wanna make major mods too, go with th IS300 but if you want luxury and a great ride and money is not a issue.. go with the BMW's!

Justice

Thing is most people arnt in to making there cars in to drag ready 8.5 sec cars. So thay wont do engine conversions, wont add turbo/super chargers. All thay know is stock. and stock... BMW rules. but if Money is not an issue and want to make a true statement? screw the M3 and screw the M5. go with a F1. after all. nothing says i am stuck up and better than you or your children will ever be than a million dollar car.

I live in a little town called Gig Harbor washington sourounded by gated communities with houses well in the millions. I work at a vidio store right in the center of it all. at one point at its worse i saw 2 MB's 3 BMW's and 2 lexus's in the parking lot with an audi s4 driving by. i cried. the only other car was my then form of transpertation... 84 honda prelude lol.

anycase there is a M.F1 around here.