E90 3 Series vs IS 250/350!! Battle for the throne! (56k no)
03-09-05, 12:06 AM
#16
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It seems the 3 is built in a new plant. Lets hope BMW can shake off quality woes
Leipzig / Munich - The new BMW plant in Leipzig began operations today by launching its series production according to schedule. BMW will produce its 3 Series sedan in the new plant. The first vehicle was completed and turned over to BMW sales. It was a BMW 320i, manufactured by order of a customer from Leipzig.
The BMW Group has built a completely new automotive plant in Leipzig with all of the essential production stages of car manufacturing - body shop, paint shop and assembly. Construction, including integration and test operations, took just under three years. The decision to build a new BMW plant in Leipzig was made on July 18, 2001. The overall investment volume is estimated at 1.3 billion euros.
On a medium-range basis, the BMW plant in Leipzig will have a production capacity of up to 650 vehicles per day. During the start-up phase 2,500 people will be working on the plant premises. Assuming full capacity utilization, over 5,000 jobs will be created there in the long term, most of them BMW jobs. Based on experience, it is expected that an approximately equal number of additional jobs will be created in the region surrounding the plant.
The official plant opening ceremony is scheduled for May 13, 2005. Plant tours for the public will be offered starting in July. These tours will last about two and a half hours and are expected to be available for booking beginning in late May via the plant's website www.bmw-werk-leipzig.de.
http://www.autointell-news.com/News-...r-02-05-p4.htm
Leipzig / Munich - The new BMW plant in Leipzig began operations today by launching its series production according to schedule. BMW will produce its 3 Series sedan in the new plant. The first vehicle was completed and turned over to BMW sales. It was a BMW 320i, manufactured by order of a customer from Leipzig.
The BMW Group has built a completely new automotive plant in Leipzig with all of the essential production stages of car manufacturing - body shop, paint shop and assembly. Construction, including integration and test operations, took just under three years. The decision to build a new BMW plant in Leipzig was made on July 18, 2001. The overall investment volume is estimated at 1.3 billion euros.
On a medium-range basis, the BMW plant in Leipzig will have a production capacity of up to 650 vehicles per day. During the start-up phase 2,500 people will be working on the plant premises. Assuming full capacity utilization, over 5,000 jobs will be created there in the long term, most of them BMW jobs. Based on experience, it is expected that an approximately equal number of additional jobs will be created in the region surrounding the plant.
The official plant opening ceremony is scheduled for May 13, 2005. Plant tours for the public will be offered starting in July. These tours will last about two and a half hours and are expected to be available for booking beginning in late May via the plant's website www.bmw-werk-leipzig.de.
http://www.autointell-news.com/News-...r-02-05-p4.htm
03-09-05, 06:02 AM
#17
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okay...sorry....the last post was not the final, but close :)
Greetings,
I wouldn't say I am completely buying on 'paper spec'. I have a E46 3 series, I love it, I trust BMW to build a car with a similarly great drive, plus a fabulous drving posistion. Plus, I have listened to the Logic 7 stereo (which is exactly the same from the $120K 760il down to the new 3 series), used the iDrive, 'felt' the new & much improved "Dakota" leather. So, I am confident that I know what I am getting in terms of options and 'feel of materials', color of gauges, night lighting, etc..
Also, very important to me, I am not saying that the BMW is better looking. Even if the IS is better looking to me, and since it is only important to me since I will be the one owning it...
looks are not all that important, since I am not looking at the exterior while I am driving, most of the time...J/k. Still, the BMW Sparkling Graphite metallic is my favorite 'non-exotic' car color. It somehow achieves 'eye-catching', sans gaudiness, as well as being very low in the 'show-off' category, simply it's the equivalent to wearing a 'bright & vibrant tie' with a classic suit, almost couture.
But, the wheels on the both the sport & non-sport, 325i are just terrible (330i wheels gorgeous... go figure), and LEXUS ALWAYS has fantastic looking wheels, only behind Mercedes wheel design IMO (exotics excluded).
IF... BIG IF, since lucky me, my father has been a BMW guy the last few years, I can secure my "spot" on the 3 series waiting list sans a deposisit, I WOULD get the 2006 IS if they BRING THE GS 300 3.0L engine to the US for LESS MONEY -very similar spec- (even the Lexus marks their cars up way more) (ALSO, I am sure many of you are already well aware, that current LEXUS IS is literally the MOST EXPENSIVE CAR TO INSURE, period), but I digress,
Basically, IF US "IS cars" have the 3.0L engine available, and I can get a 3.0L car for LESS than a similar-spec 325i, I would probaly buy the new IS "300", but Lexus will not launch the car with the 3.0L engine.
Danny Clements, says that he is very deliberately, taking a page from BMW, and will be introducing new engines throughout the model-life of all Lexus cars to keep the "buzz factor" up. But, what are thinking bringing a NEXT-GEN model that is heavier, with less power? So, until the IS250 becomes the IS300, IS330 etc..., it is not going to make many waves with 204hp in the "entry luxury/sport sedan" class.
Real last post,
James
P.S.-final rant-, the "harcore BMW sport guys" who seem to have VERY similar tastes to the magazine writers, and seem to be mostly located in warm weather states, get their cars with no power seats (save weight), no leather (save loads of money....leatherette is not awful or anything), the sport package and maybe xenon. They are all about 'sport', since previous pricey options like moonroof, cd player, automatic air-conditioning are now standard. The 330i has adaptive xenons and the Logic 7 standard, plus 17" wheels standard and 18"s with the sports package, so your going to be seeing close to stock 3 series cars competing in the magazine comparison tests, and they will not be "crazy" more expensive than all the other cars in the compara tests anymore.
What I am saying is, LEARN LEXUS!!!!!, you can't just add a wagon, coupe, convertible variant. REAL FLEXIBILITY is in OPTIONS/PACKAGES!!!! Back to the GS300, my mother would go out the door right now, and buy one for the $42,900 base, plus $1K moon-roof, $600 heated seats and would be completely satisfied. However, she doesn't need, nor want, navigation, Levinson, park assist, etc.., so she can't buy a car with a CLAIMED base price of $42,900 for under $50,000, how does that work? LEXUS, take a note from the Germans, OFFER more ala-carte options!!!!
I wouldn't say I am completely buying on 'paper spec'. I have a E46 3 series, I love it, I trust BMW to build a car with a similarly great drive, plus a fabulous drving posistion. Plus, I have listened to the Logic 7 stereo (which is exactly the same from the $120K 760il down to the new 3 series), used the iDrive, 'felt' the new & much improved "Dakota" leather. So, I am confident that I know what I am getting in terms of options and 'feel of materials', color of gauges, night lighting, etc..
Also, very important to me, I am not saying that the BMW is better looking. Even if the IS is better looking to me, and since it is only important to me since I will be the one owning it...
looks are not all that important, since I am not looking at the exterior while I am driving, most of the time...J/k. Still, the BMW Sparkling Graphite metallic is my favorite 'non-exotic' car color. It somehow achieves 'eye-catching', sans gaudiness, as well as being very low in the 'show-off' category, simply it's the equivalent to wearing a 'bright & vibrant tie' with a classic suit, almost couture.
But, the wheels on the both the sport & non-sport, 325i are just terrible (330i wheels gorgeous... go figure), and LEXUS ALWAYS has fantastic looking wheels, only behind Mercedes wheel design IMO (exotics excluded).
IF... BIG IF, since lucky me, my father has been a BMW guy the last few years, I can secure my "spot" on the 3 series waiting list sans a deposisit, I WOULD get the 2006 IS if they BRING THE GS 300 3.0L engine to the US for LESS MONEY -very similar spec- (even the Lexus marks their cars up way more) (ALSO, I am sure many of you are already well aware, that current LEXUS IS is literally the MOST EXPENSIVE CAR TO INSURE, period), but I digress,
Basically, IF US "IS cars" have the 3.0L engine available, and I can get a 3.0L car for LESS than a similar-spec 325i, I would probaly buy the new IS "300", but Lexus will not launch the car with the 3.0L engine.
Danny Clements, says that he is very deliberately, taking a page from BMW, and will be introducing new engines throughout the model-life of all Lexus cars to keep the "buzz factor" up. But, what are thinking bringing a NEXT-GEN model that is heavier, with less power? So, until the IS250 becomes the IS300, IS330 etc..., it is not going to make many waves with 204hp in the "entry luxury/sport sedan" class.
Real last post,
James
P.S.-final rant-, the "harcore BMW sport guys" who seem to have VERY similar tastes to the magazine writers, and seem to be mostly located in warm weather states, get their cars with no power seats (save weight), no leather (save loads of money....leatherette is not awful or anything), the sport package and maybe xenon. They are all about 'sport', since previous pricey options like moonroof, cd player, automatic air-conditioning are now standard. The 330i has adaptive xenons and the Logic 7 standard, plus 17" wheels standard and 18"s with the sports package, so your going to be seeing close to stock 3 series cars competing in the magazine comparison tests, and they will not be "crazy" more expensive than all the other cars in the compara tests anymore.
What I am saying is, LEARN LEXUS!!!!!, you can't just add a wagon, coupe, convertible variant. REAL FLEXIBILITY is in OPTIONS/PACKAGES!!!! Back to the GS300, my mother would go out the door right now, and buy one for the $42,900 base, plus $1K moon-roof, $600 heated seats and would be completely satisfied. However, she doesn't need, nor want, navigation, Levinson, park assist, etc.., so she can't buy a car with a CLAIMED base price of $42,900 for under $50,000, how does that work? LEXUS, take a note from the Germans, OFFER more ala-carte options!!!!
Last edited by tron1043; 03-09-05 at 06:37 AM.
03-09-05, 06:57 AM
#18
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I wasn't too crazy about the front fascia of the BMW but after seeing the pic with the angel eyes... wow! The grille of the IS could be better... maybe if it had slits going across. I like the new IS; it looks more like a Lexus than the previous generation. As for the new 3, I prefer the styling of the E46 sedan. Every angle of that car looks nice. Who knows which car will be the better drivers' car. The IS was originally the sporty opposite of the while the 3 tried to be a combination of luxury and sport.
03-09-05, 07:22 AM
#19
Racer
No manual/no Robert
I hate to be harsh but I don’t see the IS300 or whatever selling more than the 3 series or g35. Hell I’ll take the TL over the new IS300. I give Lexus a star for trying but the answer is hell no. This car will be another Acura tsx.
The is300 interior is definitely a step up from the previous version.
Imagine the TL with awd or rwd one word sick. In all honest I really think Acura doesn't care about being the biggest company b/c if they did they would offer more vehicles and non fully load cars.
Also why is every company calling bmw out? Lexus should aim for Mercedes. I would love for Lexus to destroy everything Mercedes market. I hate to hear Mercedes owners talk trash about anything not made in German.
I hate to be harsh but I don’t see the IS300 or whatever selling more than the 3 series or g35. Hell I’ll take the TL over the new IS300. I give Lexus a star for trying but the answer is hell no. This car will be another Acura tsx.
The is300 interior is definitely a step up from the previous version.
Imagine the TL with awd or rwd one word sick. In all honest I really think Acura doesn't care about being the biggest company b/c if they did they would offer more vehicles and non fully load cars.
Also why is every company calling bmw out? Lexus should aim for Mercedes. I would love for Lexus to destroy everything Mercedes market. I hate to hear Mercedes owners talk trash about anything not made in German.
Last edited by rogers2; 03-09-05 at 07:30 AM.
03-09-05, 07:24 AM
#20
Tron - i dont think you did too much of an research on new Lexus models, did you? First of all, there will be an IS350, with over 300hp and GS300 can be gotten with exactly what you listed, for less than 45k (which is also what you listed), so I really dont see where the problem is...
03-09-05, 07:37 AM
#21
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by rogers
No manual/no Robert
I hate to be harsh but I don’t see the IS300 or whatever selling more than the 3 series or g35. Hell I’ll take the TL over the new IS300. I give Lexus a star for trying but the answer is hell no. This car will be another Acura tsx.
I hate to be harsh but I don’t see the IS300 or whatever selling more than the 3 series or g35. Hell I’ll take the TL over the new IS300. I give Lexus a star for trying but the answer is hell no. This car will be another Acura tsx.
Yes if the US specs. for the IS250 is also 204 hp, then it's not much more powerful than the TSX (200 hp). But the TSX is fwd & a 4 banger, the IS should have a fatter powerband. The current 325 is an I6 with only 185 hp, would you compare it to a TSX too ?
BTW, no manual = no IS350 for me too.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 03-09-05 at 07:41 AM.
03-09-05, 07:52 AM
#22
Racer
AmethySC
The current 325 is an I6 with only 185 hp, would you compare it to a TSX too?
Yes, it’s obvious the magazines do. I guess I see Lexus more comparable to a Mercedes than a BMW. They should’ve call out Mercedes C class while at the same time steal sells from BMW.
The current 325 is an I6 with only 185 hp, would you compare it to a TSX too?
Yes, it’s obvious the magazines do. I guess I see Lexus more comparable to a Mercedes than a BMW. They should’ve call out Mercedes C class while at the same time steal sells from BMW.
03-09-05, 08:30 AM
#23
Instructor
The new IS might not beat the new 3 in terms of sales any time soon. But it is definitely a stronger contender in every way and the 3 series will loose more sales to it than ever before.
Btw, I don't see anything wrong with the IS250 producing only 204 HP. It will be a cheaper alternative to the IS350 thus attract more younger buyers. It's HP is in the same neighborhood as the 325i (218HP). But I am sure will cost less then the 325i.
Btw, I don't see anything wrong with the IS250 producing only 204 HP. It will be a cheaper alternative to the IS350 thus attract more younger buyers. It's HP is in the same neighborhood as the 325i (218HP). But I am sure will cost less then the 325i.
Last edited by BrickHead; 03-09-05 at 08:47 AM.
03-09-05, 10:18 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Only TSX owners compare their cars to the 3 or IS No magazine has reviewed the TSX against the IS or 3. They do against the Legacy, the A4, I-4 FWD version and Saabs. Its simply just a Euro Accord. Enough with the value crap. The car is to OPPOSITE of what the true competiton is. Yes, its a nice stretch and nice for most people. The car is a 25k car. That is sub entry level luxury. Not sure why you want to compete in that category.
With the IS and 3 you get RWD and V-6 powerplants. The IS interior is now superior to the TSX and TL right down to the real wood vs fake wood. There is no way in hell, I would get an Ohio made TL over this new IS.
Its simply hard for some people to have the concept that yes, Lexus can chase Benz AND BMW. They are not just going after one company. For some reason, its hard for people to accept, sporty and Lexus. For some reason, FWD Acuras are sporty and Infiniti is supposed to be the Japanese Jesus BMW. Its all in your heads. Look at the facts. People just hate Lexus because they are damn good at whatever they decide to do, no matter full luxury, a blend, sport or SUVs.
And besides, most people buy a TSX because they can get a nice luxury badge without the luxury price. Period. If the IS 250 starts at 30k, people will stretch to get a superior vehicle. And all in all, Lexus has more prestige, panache and brand cache than Acura.
With the IS and 3 you get RWD and V-6 powerplants. The IS interior is now superior to the TSX and TL right down to the real wood vs fake wood. There is no way in hell, I would get an Ohio made TL over this new IS.
Its simply hard for some people to have the concept that yes, Lexus can chase Benz AND BMW. They are not just going after one company. For some reason, its hard for people to accept, sporty and Lexus. For some reason, FWD Acuras are sporty and Infiniti is supposed to be the Japanese Jesus BMW. Its all in your heads. Look at the facts. People just hate Lexus because they are damn good at whatever they decide to do, no matter full luxury, a blend, sport or SUVs.
And besides, most people buy a TSX because they can get a nice luxury badge without the luxury price. Period. If the IS 250 starts at 30k, people will stretch to get a superior vehicle. And all in all, Lexus has more prestige, panache and brand cache than Acura.
03-09-05, 10:45 AM
#26
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I was in Geneva last week and could compare both BWM 3xx and Lexus IS220D (there was no IS250 shown). First you have to understand that back there the point is not to compare between BMW 330i and IS300 or (IS350) but between 320D and IS220D. Lexus IS sales are more than disapointing in Europe, mainly because they do not have any diesel engines. Most of the BMW sold in Europe have diesel engines.
BMW 320D / 163 hp base price 31 200€ ($ 37440)
IS220D / 177 hp price unknown
Went and see the two cars, the BMW just can't compete.
BMW 325 / 218hp base price 33 400€ ($ 40080)
IS250/ 204 hp price unknown (should be in the area of $47 000)
Went and see the two cars, the BMW just can't compete.
2006 BMW 330i / 258 hp base price 37 500€ ($ 45000)
2005 IS300 /213 hp price fully loaded 39 900€ ($ 47880)
No question, for this one the Lexus is out. We'll have to wait two more weeks to see the 2006 IS350.
Returning from Geneva, my choice was made, I'll order an IS250 as soon as it is available (sometimes this fall).
BMW 320D / 163 hp base price 31 200€ ($ 37440)
IS220D / 177 hp price unknown
Went and see the two cars, the BMW just can't compete.
BMW 325 / 218hp base price 33 400€ ($ 40080)
IS250/ 204 hp price unknown (should be in the area of $47 000)
Went and see the two cars, the BMW just can't compete.
2006 BMW 330i / 258 hp base price 37 500€ ($ 45000)
2005 IS300 /213 hp price fully loaded 39 900€ ($ 47880)
No question, for this one the Lexus is out. We'll have to wait two more weeks to see the 2006 IS350.
Returning from Geneva, my choice was made, I'll order an IS250 as soon as it is available (sometimes this fall).
03-09-05, 10:49 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Your right and I am sure some people will buy a 325 over the IS250 because of this. 
But eh, whatever. Such is life and such are people.
03-09-05, 11:04 AM
#28
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by Incendiary
Yeah, but it's not right. People who act that way really miss out on good things in life.
O/T. My preference is Lexus over BMW. Why? I value the quality, craftsmanship and over all experience of Lexus than a BMW. Do I dislike BMW? Not at all! They definitely builds vehicles that are tailored as a true driver's vehicle. I would consider a BMW if there is one that really fits my criteria. Simple as that. But at this point in time, no BMW model fits my idea of value which is why I bought an IS300 over a 3 series.
03-09-05, 11:20 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by TED_FR
I was in Geneva last week and could compare both BWM 3xx and Lexus IS220D (there was no IS250 shown). First you have to understand that back there the point is not to compare between BMW 330i and IS300 or (IS350) but between 320D and IS220D. Lexus IS sales are more than disapointing in Europe, mainly because they do not have any diesel engines. Most of the BMW sold in Europe have diesel engines.
BMW 320D / 163 hp base price 31 200€ ($ 37440)
IS220D / 177 hp price unknown
Went and see the two cars, the BMW just can't compete.
BMW 325 / 218hp base price 33 400€ ($ 40080)
IS250/ 204 hp price unknown (should be in the area of $47 000)
Went and see the two cars, the BMW just can't compete.
2006 BMW 330i / 258 hp base price 37 500€ ($ 45000)
2005 IS300 /213 hp price fully loaded 39 900€ ($ 47880)
No question, for this one the Lexus is out. We'll have to wait two more weeks to see the 2006 IS350.
Returning from Geneva, my choice was made, I'll order an IS250 as soon as it is available (sometimes this fall).
BMW 320D / 163 hp base price 31 200€ ($ 37440)
IS220D / 177 hp price unknown
Went and see the two cars, the BMW just can't compete.
BMW 325 / 218hp base price 33 400€ ($ 40080)
IS250/ 204 hp price unknown (should be in the area of $47 000)
Went and see the two cars, the BMW just can't compete.
2006 BMW 330i / 258 hp base price 37 500€ ($ 45000)
2005 IS300 /213 hp price fully loaded 39 900€ ($ 47880)
No question, for this one the Lexus is out. We'll have to wait two more weeks to see the 2006 IS350.
Returning from Geneva, my choice was made, I'll order an IS250 as soon as it is available (sometimes this fall).
03-09-05, 11:23 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by Incendiary
Yeah, but it's not right. People who act that way really miss out on good things in life. People who wouldn't consider the IS250 because it's made by Lexus and not BMW will miss what I'm sure will be a spectacular car, as people who disregard the TSX because it's an Acura will likewise (I won't go into FWD...).
But eh, whatever. Such is life and such are people.
But eh, whatever. Such is life and such are people.
Originally Posted by flipside909
Not all people act that way. It's the consumer to decide his or her preference. So what if it's their loss or not. It's their decision.
O/T. My preference is Lexus over BMW. Why? I value the quality, craftsmanship and over all experience of Lexus than a BMW. Do I dislike BMW? Not at all! They definitely builds vehicles that are tailored as a true driver's vehicle. I would consider a BMW if there is one that really fits my criteria. Simple as that. But at this point in time, no BMW model fits my idea of value which is why I bought an IS300 over a 3 series.
O/T. My preference is Lexus over BMW. Why? I value the quality, craftsmanship and over all experience of Lexus than a BMW. Do I dislike BMW? Not at all! They definitely builds vehicles that are tailored as a true driver's vehicle. I would consider a BMW if there is one that really fits my criteria. Simple as that. But at this point in time, no BMW model fits my idea of value which is why I bought an IS300 over a 3 series.