Mark Levinson -vs- Pioneer - The Showdown
11-01-05, 07:32 AM
#136
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by DrexLex
Amongst all the interesting stuff Percy has reported, I found a few items that begged comment.
Percy wrote:
1) >>What ML is using is a standard copper wire interface, and that is JUST as fragile to noise as an audio analog signal. "sonic degradation due to noise and magnetic interference". Guess what...a non fiber optic digital link will have this problem too. It's still affected by the same physics since it's being transported via copper wire.<<
Incorrect. Digital audio is not as susceptible to noise as an analog signal. As long as the bits are received and recovered at the decoder, there is no noise influence whatsoever. This is one of the key advantages of digital over analog in any transmission or storage medium.
***Then why copper vs fiber?***
>>There is more distortion at below rated power than there is AT rated power. Marketing tricks.<<
This is backwards. Typical power amps have less distortion as the output power goes down.
***Not according to Mc. I'll look for other sources to confirm this though.***
2) >>The only ML system that I would wait for would be the one in the LS430, and I recommend that without any reservation. The one in the GS absolutely sucks by comparison.<<
>>Comparing apples to oranges again?<<
Yes, you are comparing a dual-stereo system with a surround system. No comparison in my book.
***And was comparing tonality as well as spectral balance. ***
3) >>Another nice feature of the Alpine F#1 Status (new) is the road noise EQ. Responds MUCH faster than what is in the OEM world right now. And it's more than a simple "bass boost".<<
Just FYI, ML’s ASL system (at least in the GS) isn’t just bass boost.
***Bass boost plus a mid and treble boost, done in stages. Not nearly as effective as F#1, but it'll do.***
4) >>I give the ML GS430 an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. Load up Avrils DVD, Under my skin. Kick the surround ON. 5.1 channels. Retune. +4 bass, +3 mids, +5 tweets, though I try various combos.<<
>>First tune pops up. Five for Fighting. "She will be loved". For those that know the song (and most do), it starts off with a nice beat. Vocals next. Tune it according to ear to what sounds best. +4 for Bass, +1 for Mid, +3 for Treble. Listen to the tune. Vocals colored and nasal sounding. Play with the mid control some more. No go. Sounds either bad or worse. Bass...good in some spots but mostly muddy. Overpowered midbass. Treble, high hats sound fair at best. Seems like a big dip in frequency response.<<
So if you boost the bass, mid, and treble, and you find the bass is muddy, the vocals nasal, and the treble hot, why am I not surprised? It sounds exactly the same in my GS—if I set the EQ that way (I tried it). I agree the vocals are a little honky in the GS ML, so I run the mid at -2. Bass and treble are usually 0, but the bass will be varied up to +/-2 depending on the CD. This is with ASL turned on (it affects the bass), and in Surround mode. I also set the L/R balance 2 clicks to the L, and the Front/Back 2 clicks to the back. I suggest GS owners try these tone settings, they work far better than the boosted curves Percy reported.
***With car off? Did this in a listening session with car off. Still sounded nasal/muddy at the various settings. ***
I’m not here to defend the ML system. It’s far from perfect, and Volvo’s Pro Logic II kit does blow it away in many respects. But to set the EQ inappropriately and then complain about it seems selfdefeating.
***the EQ was set at various levels. Still have the same opinion of the system.***
Happy listening
Percy wrote:
1) >>What ML is using is a standard copper wire interface, and that is JUST as fragile to noise as an audio analog signal. "sonic degradation due to noise and magnetic interference". Guess what...a non fiber optic digital link will have this problem too. It's still affected by the same physics since it's being transported via copper wire.<<
Incorrect. Digital audio is not as susceptible to noise as an analog signal. As long as the bits are received and recovered at the decoder, there is no noise influence whatsoever. This is one of the key advantages of digital over analog in any transmission or storage medium.
***Then why copper vs fiber?***
>>There is more distortion at below rated power than there is AT rated power. Marketing tricks.<<
This is backwards. Typical power amps have less distortion as the output power goes down.
***Not according to Mc. I'll look for other sources to confirm this though.***
2) >>The only ML system that I would wait for would be the one in the LS430, and I recommend that without any reservation. The one in the GS absolutely sucks by comparison.<<
>>Comparing apples to oranges again?<<
Yes, you are comparing a dual-stereo system with a surround system. No comparison in my book.
***And was comparing tonality as well as spectral balance. ***
3) >>Another nice feature of the Alpine F#1 Status (new) is the road noise EQ. Responds MUCH faster than what is in the OEM world right now. And it's more than a simple "bass boost".<<
Just FYI, ML’s ASL system (at least in the GS) isn’t just bass boost.
***Bass boost plus a mid and treble boost, done in stages. Not nearly as effective as F#1, but it'll do.***
4) >>I give the ML GS430 an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. Load up Avrils DVD, Under my skin. Kick the surround ON. 5.1 channels. Retune. +4 bass, +3 mids, +5 tweets, though I try various combos.<<
>>First tune pops up. Five for Fighting. "She will be loved". For those that know the song (and most do), it starts off with a nice beat. Vocals next. Tune it according to ear to what sounds best. +4 for Bass, +1 for Mid, +3 for Treble. Listen to the tune. Vocals colored and nasal sounding. Play with the mid control some more. No go. Sounds either bad or worse. Bass...good in some spots but mostly muddy. Overpowered midbass. Treble, high hats sound fair at best. Seems like a big dip in frequency response.<<
So if you boost the bass, mid, and treble, and you find the bass is muddy, the vocals nasal, and the treble hot, why am I not surprised? It sounds exactly the same in my GS—if I set the EQ that way (I tried it). I agree the vocals are a little honky in the GS ML, so I run the mid at -2. Bass and treble are usually 0, but the bass will be varied up to +/-2 depending on the CD. This is with ASL turned on (it affects the bass), and in Surround mode. I also set the L/R balance 2 clicks to the L, and the Front/Back 2 clicks to the back. I suggest GS owners try these tone settings, they work far better than the boosted curves Percy reported.
***With car off? Did this in a listening session with car off. Still sounded nasal/muddy at the various settings. ***
I’m not here to defend the ML system. It’s far from perfect, and Volvo’s Pro Logic II kit does blow it away in many respects. But to set the EQ inappropriately and then complain about it seems selfdefeating.
***the EQ was set at various levels. Still have the same opinion of the system.***
Happy listening
Percy
11-03-05, 08:33 PM
#137
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Did some digging around and eventually asking an old hat on digital transmission. The person has been in the digital data transmission field for well over 25 years. He says that the data, as long as the signal is above the noise level, and as long as the decoder can interpret it, will end up pretty much intact. So for copper, as long as the noise isn't too bad, it'll still get the goods.
Most of the high end setups will use dual lines. One for the data, and one for a master clock, just in case. Reduces the chance of any timing errors.
SO, we were both right.
As for the amp "below rated power level", still digging up info on this.
Percy
Most of the high end setups will use dual lines. One for the data, and one for a master clock, just in case. Reduces the chance of any timing errors.
SO, we were both right.
As for the amp "below rated power level", still digging up info on this.
Percy
11-03-05, 09:49 PM
#138
1) Optical has its advantages in certain respects. One is that is has no spurious electromagnetic radiation. Another is its immunity to noise in very harsh environments, and that can mean less data error.
2) Pro studio gear uses an external master audio reference clock, as it is important for all the myriad boxes around the facility to run synchronously. But this has nothing to do with noise interference immunity. Consumer gear, including the ML system, uses simple S/PDIF, which is a single line data format.
3) I can help with the amp question. Rated power is spec'd at a fixed level of distortion. In ML's case, they spec it at 1%. To reach 1% distortion, the amp has to be driven slightly into clipping. At lower levels, where clipping isn't happening, the distortion will drop significantly, to 0.1% or less. So the distortion below rated power will always be less than at rated power.
2) Pro studio gear uses an external master audio reference clock, as it is important for all the myriad boxes around the facility to run synchronously. But this has nothing to do with noise interference immunity. Consumer gear, including the ML system, uses simple S/PDIF, which is a single line data format.
3) I can help with the amp question. Rated power is spec'd at a fixed level of distortion. In ML's case, they spec it at 1%. To reach 1% distortion, the amp has to be driven slightly into clipping. At lower levels, where clipping isn't happening, the distortion will drop significantly, to 0.1% or less. So the distortion below rated power will always be less than at rated power.
11-04-05, 04:40 AM
#139
Originally Posted by DrexLex
3) I can help with the amp question. Rated power is spec'd at a fixed level of distortion. In ML's case, they spec it at 1%. To reach 1% distortion, the amp has to be driven slightly into clipping. At lower levels, where clipping isn't happening, the distortion will drop significantly, to 0.1% or less. So the distortion below rated power will always be less than at rated power.
Remember, MOST (if not all) aftermarket amps are rated at less than 1% THD (NOT 0.1%). This is what my Infinity Reference amp is rated at.
From Lexus:
"The all new Mark Levinson Processor/Amplifier in the IS will produce a total power output of 300 watts, all channels driven, 20-20kHz @ less than 0.1% Total Harmonic Distortion."
What's interesting is that the 1st gen ML amplifier has a rating of 240 watts at less than 0.01% THD!! So, i wonder if the 1st gen ML amplifier is a cleaner unit, but has less features (like surround sound)??? If you raise the THD to 0.1%, i wonder if the 1st gen ML can make more than 300 watts of the 2nd gen ML???
Last edited by tigmd99; 11-04-05 at 04:52 AM.
11-04-05, 08:44 AM
#140
Moderator - Electronics Forum
So if all the amps out there used this spec, I wonder what the Mc would be rated for at 1% or even .1% distortion. Would be interesting. Mc's rating is 0.005%.
As for the clocks, the older XESZ50, a high end unit (8 grand for main box) used seperate master and data clocks. This was an integrated unit, not in seperate boxes.
Percy
As for the clocks, the older XESZ50, a high end unit (8 grand for main box) used seperate master and data clocks. This was an integrated unit, not in seperate boxes.
Percy
Last edited by Percy; 11-04-05 at 08:47 AM.
11-04-05, 12:51 PM
#141
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by DrexLex
1) Optical has its advantages in certain respects. One is that is has no spurious electromagnetic radiation. Another is its immunity to noise in very harsh environments, and that can mean less data error.
2) Pro studio gear uses an external master audio reference clock, as it is important for all the myriad boxes around the facility to run synchronously. But this has nothing to do with noise interference immunity. Consumer gear, including the ML system, uses simple S/PDIF, which is a single line data format.
***Which can be run in either copper or fiber. As long as the receiver gets the signal with little noise, and if it can reconstruct the signal, again with little noise, it's pretty much a no issue. Now if you're running the digital copper line by an AC mains or even by the alternator of the car, then you're asking for trouble.***
3) I can help with the amp question. Rated power is spec'd at a fixed level of distortion. In ML's case, they spec it at 1%. To reach 1% distortion, the amp has to be driven slightly into clipping. At lower levels, where clipping isn't happening, the distortion will drop significantly, to 0.1% or less. So the distortion below rated power will always be less than at rated power.
2) Pro studio gear uses an external master audio reference clock, as it is important for all the myriad boxes around the facility to run synchronously. But this has nothing to do with noise interference immunity. Consumer gear, including the ML system, uses simple S/PDIF, which is a single line data format.
***Which can be run in either copper or fiber. As long as the receiver gets the signal with little noise, and if it can reconstruct the signal, again with little noise, it's pretty much a no issue. Now if you're running the digital copper line by an AC mains or even by the alternator of the car, then you're asking for trouble.***
3) I can help with the amp question. Rated power is spec'd at a fixed level of distortion. In ML's case, they spec it at 1%. To reach 1% distortion, the amp has to be driven slightly into clipping. At lower levels, where clipping isn't happening, the distortion will drop significantly, to 0.1% or less. So the distortion below rated power will always be less than at rated power.
***As for Mc and their way of measurement, they're doing it in such a way that may seem "reverse" or "not correct" or "even backwards" of the "typical" (if there really is such a thing) way or measuring distortion. May be tough to visualize, but think of your home receiver. When you turn it on, there is a certain amount of hiss/noise/distortion. That's at the lower power levels. Then when you crank up the volume level, the signal overcomes the noise. What Mc is doing is measuring at the lowest possible level, below rated power, of the amp itself. Or, in laymans terms, when the "hiss"/"distortion" number is at it's highest. That's where they get the 0.005 percent distortion, below rated power numbers from. Mc wants to show and prove on the test bench and in real life of how WELL their amplifiers do. As for the 1 percent benchmark, it's also valid, but it doesn't tell how well the amp will do at the lower power levels. It could also be interpreted as how much "hiss" there is (noise) in the system.***
***Example. Mc's 6 channel amp, the MC440M, will have a rating of 0.005 percent distortion, 20-20khz, below rated power, at 12 volts DC. That amp is rated for 400 watts total, CONSERVATIVELY. Mc usually measures at 20 - 25 percent higher power at a lower distortion number than spec'd, usually 0.0045 or lower. Now once when you crank up the amp and force it to clip, the rating is much higher than 400 total. Mc doesn't publish the 1 percent number, but figure that 400 total * 20 percent = 480 watts total with the 0.005% distortion number. Now push it to the 1 percent and you'll quite possibly get, in theory, and I'm throwing numbers here, possibly 700 watts sustained at the 1 percent marker. I'd be really interested in what the Mc can push at the 1 percent marker, just to keep things even with the ML rating.***
***Now IF you push the Mc amp hard, you'll have to defeat the Power Guard circuitry. This is a non soft clipping limiter that senses if the source is clipping or overdriving the amp. It's more of a safety thing, but it can be defeated for those that want to measure the 1 percenter. Just hook up the PG to ground and it's done. ***
***Just two different "angles" of measuring what an amp can do. Neither is "correct" or "incorrect" of one another, it's just a different way of telling the consumer what it can do.***
Percy
11-04-05, 09:07 PM
#143
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Last price for the MC440M was around 1800. Expensive, but, IMO, the absolute best amp there is out on the market for car audio. Another thing nice about Mc is that the ENTIRE lineup of amps have the same low noise spec and isn't reserved for the "reference" amps like other companies. The 440M isn't made anymore and they have a replacement. Check them out at http://www.mcintoshlabs.com quite a read!
Also, the 0.005 percent number is valid from 250 milliwatts to full rated power. The powerguard circuitry cuts in at 2% distortion if overdriven from the source. Otherwise any distortion that is present in the chain is more than likely from the preamp/hu itself!
Percy
Also, the 0.005 percent number is valid from 250 milliwatts to full rated power. The powerguard circuitry cuts in at 2% distortion if overdriven from the source. Otherwise any distortion that is present in the chain is more than likely from the preamp/hu itself!
Percy
Last edited by Percy; 11-04-05 at 11:00 PM.
11-05-05, 12:52 AM
#144
A picture may help the discussion. This one comes from http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramp...sh/index5.html
This is a Mc home amp, but the idea is the same. The curves are not plotting distortion, but distortion plus noise. To reach the rated distortion of 0.005%, the amp has essentially begun to go into clipping, right at the knee where the distortion climbs steeply. Below that point, the THD+N reduces as power reduces. Then the curve bottoms out and then starts up again as power drops below 10W. This is not distortion rising, but the noise level swamping out the residual distortion. It is very typical of amplifiers to measure with this shape of curve, but the actual distortion levels may differ quite a bit.
This is a Mc home amp, but the idea is the same. The curves are not plotting distortion, but distortion plus noise. To reach the rated distortion of 0.005%, the amp has essentially begun to go into clipping, right at the knee where the distortion climbs steeply. Below that point, the THD+N reduces as power reduces. Then the curve bottoms out and then starts up again as power drops below 10W. This is not distortion rising, but the noise level swamping out the residual distortion. It is very typical of amplifiers to measure with this shape of curve, but the actual distortion levels may differ quite a bit.
11-05-05, 04:35 AM
#145
Originally Posted by Percy
Last price for the MC440M was around 1800. Expensive, but, IMO, the absolute best amp there is out on the market for car audio. Another thing nice about Mc is that the ENTIRE lineup of amps have the same low noise spec and isn't reserved for the "reference" amps like other companies. The 440M isn't made anymore and they have a replacement. Check them out at http://www.mcintoshlabs.com quite a read!
Also, the 0.005 percent number is valid from 250 milliwatts to full rated power. The powerguard circuitry cuts in at 2% distortion if overdriven from the source. Otherwise any distortion that is present in the chain is more than likely from the preamp/hu itself!
Percy
Also, the 0.005 percent number is valid from 250 milliwatts to full rated power. The powerguard circuitry cuts in at 2% distortion if overdriven from the source. Otherwise any distortion that is present in the chain is more than likely from the preamp/hu itself!
Percy
Given $1800 for Mc amp, i would certainly expect it to have better characteristics than a ML amp.
11-05-05, 09:22 AM
#146
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Anything on a ML amp w/distortion measurements?
Percy
Percy
Originally Posted by DrexLex
A picture may help the discussion. This one comes from http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramp...sh/index5.html
This is a Mc home amp, but the idea is the same. The curves are not plotting distortion, but distortion plus noise. To reach the rated distortion of 0.005%, the amp has essentially begun to go into clipping, right at the knee where the distortion climbs steeply. Below that point, the THD+N reduces as power reduces. Then the curve bottoms out and then starts up again as power drops below 10W. This is not distortion rising, but the noise level swamping out the residual distortion. It is very typical of amplifiers to measure with this shape of curve, but the actual distortion levels may differ quite a bit.
This is a Mc home amp, but the idea is the same. The curves are not plotting distortion, but distortion plus noise. To reach the rated distortion of 0.005%, the amp has essentially begun to go into clipping, right at the knee where the distortion climbs steeply. Below that point, the THD+N reduces as power reduces. Then the curve bottoms out and then starts up again as power drops below 10W. This is not distortion rising, but the noise level swamping out the residual distortion. It is very typical of amplifiers to measure with this shape of curve, but the actual distortion levels may differ quite a bit.
11-07-05, 09:56 PM
#147
Lexus Fanatic
OT but just wanted to note that Edmunds has just posted a stereo evaluation of the Dynaudio system in the new Passat. It got a score of 9.0 and it seems that the evaluators were truly impressed with how lifelike the system sounds. 
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...9/pageId=66396
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...9/pageId=66396
Originally Posted by Edmunds
Considering the price point of the Passat, the new Dynaudio system is light-years ahead of what you'll find in a Honda, Toyota or Nissan.
11-08-05, 05:03 AM
#148
Originally Posted by XeroK00L
OT but just wanted to note that Edmunds has just posted a stereo evaluation of the Dynaudio system in the new Passat. It got a score of 9.0 and it seems that the evaluators were truly impressed with how lifelike the system sounds.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...9/pageId=66396
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...9/pageId=66396
Like i said before, if you calibrate it right, metal tweeters can sound very good and is generally more accurate than cloth tweeter. My Infinity tweeters are cloth...and they sound pretty bright.
11-08-05, 07:24 AM
#149
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Let's drop in titanium in the VW. It'll sound ear piercing. Sounds just about right for those in the military loading shells...
I'll try to audition the 900 watt Volvo/Dyn system sometime soon. Or for those that are interested, go listen to it if you're curious. Should be interesting.
Percy
Sounds just about right for those in the military loading shells...I'll try to audition the 900 watt Volvo/Dyn system sometime soon. Or for those that are interested, go listen to it if you're curious. Should be interesting.
Percy
Originally Posted by tigmd99
Well, apparently, the Dynaudio system sounded "too bright"! Hmmm, if you notice, despite having titanium tweeters in the ML system, NO ONE has ever criticized the ML system as being "too bright". There goes that theory about metal vs. cloth tweeters!
Like i said before, if you calibrate it right, metal tweeters can sound very good and is generally more accurate than cloth tweeter. My Infinity tweeters are cloth...and they sound pretty bright.
Like i said before, if you calibrate it right, metal tweeters can sound very good and is generally more accurate than cloth tweeter. My Infinity tweeters are cloth...and they sound pretty bright.
02-20-06, 12:05 PM
#150
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Hi Everyone,
I'm new to this forum and have been doing some lurking recently trying soak up as much info as possible. I'm currently shopping around for a new IS250/350. I wanted to comment on something you guys touched on earlier in this thread. I'm in Omaha Nebraska and unfortunately there is only 1 Lexus dealer in Omaha. There is also one in Lincoln, that I haven't been to yet. I told the sales guy that I was interested in an IS with ML. I was blown away when he told me they didn't have any at all and they probably wouldn't for quite some time. He said it was almost impossible to find them in the Midwest. He also mentioned that they wouldn't be getting any IS's with the sport package either!! ML isn't exactly a must have for me, but I'd sure like to hear it and see what I'd be missing. I guess I could always use that as a bargaining option. "Give me a good deal and I'll buy your car even without ML"
I'm new to this forum and have been doing some lurking recently trying soak up as much info as possible. I'm currently shopping around for a new IS250/350. I wanted to comment on something you guys touched on earlier in this thread. I'm in Omaha Nebraska and unfortunately there is only 1 Lexus dealer in Omaha. There is also one in Lincoln, that I haven't been to yet. I told the sales guy that I was interested in an IS with ML. I was blown away when he told me they didn't have any at all and they probably wouldn't for quite some time. He said it was almost impossible to find them in the Midwest. He also mentioned that they wouldn't be getting any IS's with the sport package either!! ML isn't exactly a must have for me, but I'd sure like to hear it and see what I'd be missing. I guess I could always use that as a bargaining option. "Give me a good deal and I'll buy your car even without ML"