Mark Levinson -vs- Pioneer - The Showdown
09-25-06, 03:35 AM
#183
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Hey all. For more fuel to the fire...
I've had the ML system for 3 months now and I have to say that on certain tracks on certain CD's, it can sound amazing. However, on average, it is merely good to very good. At first I thought it was a case of not all CD's being recorded equally well (these are original CD's I'm referring to). Now I realise that the system just hasn't been tuned as well as it probably should have been.
Basis for comparison is my previous car - Volvo s40 stock system which had good clarity, but not enough depth.
More importantly, I have also spent some time in a S40 with "premium sound Prologic II 12 speaker system". I assume that this is the same as the Dynaudio system so highly spoken of? It is the top of the line sound option here in Australia (where the names of the products tend to be changed).
I can confirm that the Volvo Dynaudio system definitely sounds better. I finally understood what "being in the centre of sound" means after listening to the Volvo system. You could close your eyes and it would feel as though you were in the middle of an auditorium with music flowing all around you.
With the IS250 ML system I tend to find that I have to adjust the equaliser song by song (in my search for perfection), or toggle DSP on and off (sometimes it's better on, sometimes not - mostly not). However it still is not good as the Dynaudio.
With the ML system, sometimes you will turn it up and up, and whilst things are louder, it doesn't have the "depth" to it that you want. So you don't quite get the effect you want, instead, it just get's louder till it's too loud. I will say that it's sound clarity turned up is exceptional though.
Lastly, I think the ML MP3 decoder is poor. If I convert a MP3 to Audio-CD format and play it (as a normal music CD), it sounds good. However, if I copy the exact same MP3 to a CD and play that (as a MP3 file), it is crap. This is contrary to what I would expect to happen. I would have thought that the whole conversion to Audio-CD process would have resulted in a less "pure" sound than playing the original MP3. My final test of this theory involved me plugging in an Iriver MP3 player (trust me - the sound quality of this is better than my brother's IPOD) into the AUX jack of the car and playing the same MP3 through the car's sound system. It sounded considerably better than the inhouse head unit. Conclusion - inhouse head unit decoding of MP3 = ****e.
Note: To the audiophiles, I apologise if I am using the wrong terms! Whilst I have a better than average ear, I am ignorant to the terminology!
I am glad I have the ML system though. It's cool to drive around in a car that has 14 speakers...the more the better right?
I've had the ML system for 3 months now and I have to say that on certain tracks on certain CD's, it can sound amazing. However, on average, it is merely good to very good. At first I thought it was a case of not all CD's being recorded equally well (these are original CD's I'm referring to). Now I realise that the system just hasn't been tuned as well as it probably should have been.
Basis for comparison is my previous car - Volvo s40 stock system which had good clarity, but not enough depth.
More importantly, I have also spent some time in a S40 with "premium sound Prologic II 12 speaker system". I assume that this is the same as the Dynaudio system so highly spoken of? It is the top of the line sound option here in Australia (where the names of the products tend to be changed).
I can confirm that the Volvo Dynaudio system definitely sounds better. I finally understood what "being in the centre of sound" means after listening to the Volvo system. You could close your eyes and it would feel as though you were in the middle of an auditorium with music flowing all around you.
With the IS250 ML system I tend to find that I have to adjust the equaliser song by song (in my search for perfection), or toggle DSP on and off (sometimes it's better on, sometimes not - mostly not). However it still is not good as the Dynaudio.
With the ML system, sometimes you will turn it up and up, and whilst things are louder, it doesn't have the "depth" to it that you want. So you don't quite get the effect you want, instead, it just get's louder till it's too loud. I will say that it's sound clarity turned up is exceptional though.
Lastly, I think the ML MP3 decoder is poor. If I convert a MP3 to Audio-CD format and play it (as a normal music CD), it sounds good. However, if I copy the exact same MP3 to a CD and play that (as a MP3 file), it is crap. This is contrary to what I would expect to happen. I would have thought that the whole conversion to Audio-CD process would have resulted in a less "pure" sound than playing the original MP3. My final test of this theory involved me plugging in an Iriver MP3 player (trust me - the sound quality of this is better than my brother's IPOD) into the AUX jack of the car and playing the same MP3 through the car's sound system. It sounded considerably better than the inhouse head unit. Conclusion - inhouse head unit decoding of MP3 = ****e.
Note: To the audiophiles, I apologise if I am using the wrong terms! Whilst I have a better than average ear, I am ignorant to the terminology!
I am glad I have the ML system though. It's cool to drive around in a car that has 14 speakers...the more the better right?
Last edited by kinjiru; 09-25-06 at 03:38 AM. Reason: tried to make the whole MP3 paragraph a bit clearer
09-25-06, 08:44 PM
#184
Lexus Champion
It's AMAZING .....
But when you get guys talking about high end audio they get lost in all the details about power, sub-woofers, and the minutae of everthing connected with sound reproduction. This thread reads like Stereophile magazine. C'mon, it's an audio system in a freakin' luxury car. The ML sounds better than 99% of anything else one is going to hear in a car. Could it be improved upon? Yes, but at what cost?? Let's just enjoy the systems. I've lived with ML and am very happy with it. I really haven't heard the Pioneer system but everyone says it sounds good. Unless someone has some hard results comparing the two its just conjecture. But I do believe the ML speakers are 'better' than the stock system, and it does have an honest 300 watts of RMS power. For what it's worth.
11-15-06, 05:26 PM
#187
Lexus Champion
I believe the positions are the same for both ML and Pioneer except the center channel speaker on the dash which is only there on the ML system.
11-15-06, 06:44 PM
#189
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I love my ml system....
I have no issues with the cd's that I burn from I-tunes. You just have to adjust your burner propely to get the most out of the sound. When adjusted righ the ml is one great system. It is true you may have to adjust the system from time to time on some songs or albums BUT that, to me, is what shows how good the system is. If you have a low audio soundtrack with poor bass sound the ml shows it for what it is and does not hide any flaws.
I listen to quite a bit of old punk rock every day. The old misfits albums sound bad no matter what you play them on so the overall poor audio quality should not be hel against the ml system. Now you throw in the Clash London Calling remastered album and it really comes alive. Throw in a dvd audio cd and it will blow you out of the water.
Doller for doller I think this is the best system,
I have no issues with the cd's that I burn from I-tunes. You just have to adjust your burner propely to get the most out of the sound. When adjusted righ the ml is one great system. It is true you may have to adjust the system from time to time on some songs or albums BUT that, to me, is what shows how good the system is. If you have a low audio soundtrack with poor bass sound the ml shows it for what it is and does not hide any flaws.
I listen to quite a bit of old punk rock every day. The old misfits albums sound bad no matter what you play them on so the overall poor audio quality should not be hel against the ml system. Now you throw in the Clash London Calling remastered album and it really comes alive. Throw in a dvd audio cd and it will blow you out of the water.
Doller for doller I think this is the best system,
03-11-07, 09:17 PM
#190
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OK - I know this thread is dead but ever since I bought my car, I've been wondering whether I wasted my money getting the ML. But I've finally settled this burning question once and for all (for me anyway!) after getting the chance this weekend to compare my ML IS250 vs the stock Pioneer one.
When I first listened to the ML system, I was disappointed. This was probably because I've spent some time listening to the Volvo Dynaudio system and I guess once you've had the best, everything else sounds so poor in comparison! Specifically, I've found that you can get some pretty good sound by adjusting the treble/mid/bass and DSP settings, but it's annoying to have to do this song by song. Nowadays, I mostly leave it at the neutral setting.
However, after 8 months of this, when I listened to my friends stock pioneer on the weekend, I couldn't help but think how crap the pioneer sounds now!
I tested using a Rhianna CD (I wanted something with Treble AND bass - don't laugh at my CD collection OK!!) and set all my settings to neutral. I then tweaked them till the songs sounded optimal in my ears. I closed my eyes a bit to block everything else out and to get a good solid memory/impression of how things sounded. I then went over to my friends car and plugged my CD in and used the same process.
The 1st thing I noticed was that even though we had set everything to neutral, his bass was a lot louder in his car. My explanation is that because the Pioneer system lacks a dedicated subwoofer, it probably compensates by blasting out bass through a bunch of speakers. I say "louder" because it definitely was NOT punchier or deeper.
The rest of the sound was basically less clear and sharp then my ML system. Notes did not have the same start then stop (precision), nor were they as vibrant. They didn't have the same level of depth. (It's very hard to describe sound, and I'm not an audiophile so I don't know the terms, so I apologise if I'm using terms incorrectly).
How big a difference? Enough that I'm very glad I have the ML system. Then again, I do a lot of travelling in my car (30,000 km's a year) and listen to music for most of that time.
So in conclusion, I was disappointed by the ML system when I first got it, but after getting used to it, it's pretty darn good. BUT, when I jump into other cars now, everything else sounds terrible! This includes BMW's and Mercedes (admittedly not with the top of the line Harmon Kardon systems installed), as well as several Mazdas with their top of the line BOSE systems. I have to agree with previous posters and just say that BOSE systems are terrible, worse than many factory (standard) systems.
This is not meant as a flame. If you have the stock system and love it, I'm happy for you! Like I said previously, I spend a lot of time listening to music in my car so I've become pickier over time!
When I first listened to the ML system, I was disappointed. This was probably because I've spent some time listening to the Volvo Dynaudio system and I guess once you've had the best, everything else sounds so poor in comparison! Specifically, I've found that you can get some pretty good sound by adjusting the treble/mid/bass and DSP settings, but it's annoying to have to do this song by song. Nowadays, I mostly leave it at the neutral setting.
However, after 8 months of this, when I listened to my friends stock pioneer on the weekend, I couldn't help but think how crap the pioneer sounds now!
I tested using a Rhianna CD (I wanted something with Treble AND bass - don't laugh at my CD collection OK!!) and set all my settings to neutral. I then tweaked them till the songs sounded optimal in my ears. I closed my eyes a bit to block everything else out and to get a good solid memory/impression of how things sounded. I then went over to my friends car and plugged my CD in and used the same process.
The 1st thing I noticed was that even though we had set everything to neutral, his bass was a lot louder in his car. My explanation is that because the Pioneer system lacks a dedicated subwoofer, it probably compensates by blasting out bass through a bunch of speakers. I say "louder" because it definitely was NOT punchier or deeper.
The rest of the sound was basically less clear and sharp then my ML system. Notes did not have the same start then stop (precision), nor were they as vibrant. They didn't have the same level of depth. (It's very hard to describe sound, and I'm not an audiophile so I don't know the terms, so I apologise if I'm using terms incorrectly).
How big a difference? Enough that I'm very glad I have the ML system. Then again, I do a lot of travelling in my car (30,000 km's a year) and listen to music for most of that time.
So in conclusion, I was disappointed by the ML system when I first got it, but after getting used to it, it's pretty darn good. BUT, when I jump into other cars now, everything else sounds terrible! This includes BMW's and Mercedes (admittedly not with the top of the line Harmon Kardon systems installed), as well as several Mazdas with their top of the line BOSE systems. I have to agree with previous posters and just say that BOSE systems are terrible, worse than many factory (standard) systems.
This is not meant as a flame. If you have the stock system and love it, I'm happy for you! Like I said previously, I spend a lot of time listening to music in my car so I've become pickier over time!
03-12-07, 06:12 AM
#191
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The 1st thing I noticed was that even though we had set everything to neutral, his bass was a lot louder in his car. My explanation is that because the Pioneer system lacks a dedicated subwoofer, it probably compensates by blasting out bass through a bunch of speakers. I say "louder" because it definitely was NOT punchier or deeper.
The stock system does have a dedicated subwoofer.
The stock system does have a dedicated subwoofer.
03-13-07, 03:31 PM
#192
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03-13-07, 06:52 PM
#193
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"The stock system does have a dedicated subwoofer."
Ooops...my bad. I thought I had read that the stock 13 speaker system didn't...
There goes my credibility!
Now that I think about it, I think it's the centre speaker that's added with the ML system, not the subwoofer!
Ooops...my bad. I thought I had read that the stock 13 speaker system didn't...
There goes my credibility! Now that I think about it, I think it's the centre speaker that's added with the ML system, not the subwoofer!
03-13-07, 08:26 PM
#194
I've had my car for about 5 months and I'm not all that blown away by my ML system. Sure it sounds better than most stock car systems, it did cost 1,500 retail(DVD extra). So far the best the car has ever sounded was when I first got it, maybe that's because I've never experienced good audio is a car or it was in its best condition, but for the past 4 months I'm having mixed emotions on my ML system.
The sub blew out about 3 months ago, had to get it replaced. Now I think it happened again or the sub is just loose in its holding. The system doesn't knock(base kicking in) as hard as I would like. I would like it to start at lower volumes because 40 is just too loud for me. The base isn't deep for me. It's kind of dull. I have a better range of base on my desktop speakers than my car sometimes. The ML probably wasn't made for people who like base in their music, because I put a lot of strain on my ML and it shows. I usually never put the volume higher than 35 and already I need to get a new sub. It rattles too much for me, and even though its covered, I've kind of given up because the dealer will just replace the sub but it will just get blown again.
The sub blew out about 3 months ago, had to get it replaced. Now I think it happened again or the sub is just loose in its holding. The system doesn't knock(base kicking in) as hard as I would like. I would like it to start at lower volumes because 40 is just too loud for me. The base isn't deep for me. It's kind of dull. I have a better range of base on my desktop speakers than my car sometimes. The ML probably wasn't made for people who like base in their music, because I put a lot of strain on my ML and it shows. I usually never put the volume higher than 35 and already I need to get a new sub. It rattles too much for me, and even though its covered, I've kind of given up because the dealer will just replace the sub but it will just get blown again.
05-24-07, 07:34 PM
#195
Intermediate
I have a ML and like it, but i am not sure if some of you have experienced this problem or not, but on some songs like trance and euro-dance music i tend to get al ot more bass from the song and the sub woofer sounds like it can not handle the song. even though i have the bass level set in the middle which is flat and i still get a lot of flatter bass from the sub woofer. My question to you all is that does anyone know if there is subwoofer level control on the amp or system?
thanks,
thanks,