Mark Levinson -vs- Pioneer - The Showdown
10-24-05, 05:00 PM
#91
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Close enough to chicago. Would be happy to take a look at the IS/ML when you get it. As for the mids, the person at Dyn said that the MD140 is a one piece unit and can't be seperated from the housing. That sounds kinda odd since the pictures look like it should be able to.
I'll try to drop by Lexus and get the EWD as well as the tear down diagrams. Would make life alot easier. Guys/gals...please don't email me about the diagrams just yet. Just want to see if it's feasable and if I can come up with any ideas for the Dyn mounting. Might have to go custom.
As for a dealership near you, you can contact Dynaudio directly. Their phone number is 630-238-4200. Great bunch of guys there. The dealership listing they have on the web is very outdated.
Percy
I'll try to drop by Lexus and get the EWD as well as the tear down diagrams. Would make life alot easier. Guys/gals...please don't email me about the diagrams just yet. Just want to see if it's feasable and if I can come up with any ideas for the Dyn mounting. Might have to go custom.
As for a dealership near you, you can contact Dynaudio directly. Their phone number is 630-238-4200. Great bunch of guys there. The dealership listing they have on the web is very outdated.
Percy
Originally Posted by yoyoniner
Hey Percy,
Are you in Chicago? This may be too late but I will probably be getting an IS350 around January. If you want you can play around with it, install the speakers, and I'd pay you too... but that's a few months away. I'll let you know eventually... I hope by then we can find out if we can put a Dynaudio mid in there by then. That would be fantastic if we could! I wonder how long it will take the forum to figure out the exact speaker sizes and what is possible to drop in, including the front mids...
Also.... do you have any recommendations of stores in the Chicagoland area that I can go and listen/demo the Dynaudios, a/d/s, etc.?
-
Are you in Chicago? This may be too late but I will probably be getting an IS350 around January. If you want you can play around with it, install the speakers, and I'd pay you too... but that's a few months away. I'll let you know eventually... I hope by then we can find out if we can put a Dynaudio mid in there by then. That would be fantastic if we could! I wonder how long it will take the forum to figure out the exact speaker sizes and what is possible to drop in, including the front mids...
Also.... do you have any recommendations of stores in the Chicagoland area that I can go and listen/demo the Dynaudios, a/d/s, etc.?
-
10-24-05, 05:31 PM
#92
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Hi, I've been lurking around the clublexus forums for quite a while. I think my next car is going to be a lexus IS250 6 speed. I think if you're buying this car to do some things yourself, I would get the base system and upgrade with aftermarket parts. The Mark Levinson sounds great, but there are system out there that sound even better for a little more money. 
10-24-05, 08:39 PM
#93
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Ok guys and gals...here's the lowdown.
I did manage to get the parts diagram, but not the teardown sheets. The subwoofer is a DUAL voice coil, so that pretty much rules out any single voice coil option, unless you want to hook it up to one channel only. The DVC stems from an offshoot of the Infinity Kappa inverted dome subs back in the late '90's. Those didn't do too well since they were made for shallow applications. Neo magnets, gel coated sub, but sounded like crap. So much for the theory of advanced materials equals advanced technology/sound.
The 6.5 inchers - you'll have to take the entire thing out and make a custom baffle for the MW160's. Not a big deal. Any shop could do this but I'd still rather you guys/gals do it yourself.
The 2.5 center. This is where it gets kinda tricky. Custom baffle once again, but I didn't see any real clearance depth, but pretty sure you could shoehorn the MD140s in it's place. The 2.5s ARE DEEP for a 2.5 inch speaker. Most 2 inch speakers are usually in the neighborhood of an inch or so. There's almost 3 inches of clearance for the CENTER channel. Don't let the small size/diameter fool you. That's the estimate from the drawing.
2.5 mids - a little slimmer since they didn't use the bracket under the speaker. Probably 1 3/4 inch mount depth. They literally look like they're slapped into the door casing.
Tweets - A pillar install. This gets kinda tricky. A MD100 out of the casing might work...but it's VERY close.
What scares the bejezzus out of me is that the speakers in the pioneer and the ML have the SAME part numbers. BUT, the drawings are different. They probably have to specify ML or non ML if there are any warranty issues.
Also - from a locational standpoint, the Pioneer system has BETTER placement of speakers. They're all on the same plane for mounting. 3 in the doors (midwoofer, mid and tweet) versus the ML which has the tweets and mids bouncing off the window. The midwoofer is installed in the doors. 90 degree difference. It's usually not good to bounce the sound off the windshield as it introduces another reflection, which seems to be the strategy with the ML. The more speakers and the more the sound has to bounce, the more errors in timing that will occur.
And yes, the general manager agreed with me...the GS as well as the other cars sound horrible compared to the flagship LS430. He's another audio/video guru at heart and we can talk shop, which is pretty cool.
Percy
I did manage to get the parts diagram, but not the teardown sheets. The subwoofer is a DUAL voice coil, so that pretty much rules out any single voice coil option, unless you want to hook it up to one channel only. The DVC stems from an offshoot of the Infinity Kappa inverted dome subs back in the late '90's. Those didn't do too well since they were made for shallow applications. Neo magnets, gel coated sub, but sounded like crap. So much for the theory of advanced materials equals advanced technology/sound.
The 6.5 inchers - you'll have to take the entire thing out and make a custom baffle for the MW160's. Not a big deal. Any shop could do this but I'd still rather you guys/gals do it yourself.
The 2.5 center. This is where it gets kinda tricky. Custom baffle once again, but I didn't see any real clearance depth, but pretty sure you could shoehorn the MD140s in it's place. The 2.5s ARE DEEP for a 2.5 inch speaker. Most 2 inch speakers are usually in the neighborhood of an inch or so. There's almost 3 inches of clearance for the CENTER channel. Don't let the small size/diameter fool you. That's the estimate from the drawing.
2.5 mids - a little slimmer since they didn't use the bracket under the speaker. Probably 1 3/4 inch mount depth. They literally look like they're slapped into the door casing.
Tweets - A pillar install. This gets kinda tricky. A MD100 out of the casing might work...but it's VERY close.
What scares the bejezzus out of me is that the speakers in the pioneer and the ML have the SAME part numbers. BUT, the drawings are different. They probably have to specify ML or non ML if there are any warranty issues.
Also - from a locational standpoint, the Pioneer system has BETTER placement of speakers. They're all on the same plane for mounting. 3 in the doors (midwoofer, mid and tweet) versus the ML which has the tweets and mids bouncing off the window. The midwoofer is installed in the doors. 90 degree difference. It's usually not good to bounce the sound off the windshield as it introduces another reflection, which seems to be the strategy with the ML. The more speakers and the more the sound has to bounce, the more errors in timing that will occur.
And yes, the general manager agreed with me...the GS as well as the other cars sound horrible compared to the flagship LS430. He's another audio/video guru at heart and we can talk shop, which is pretty cool.
Percy
10-24-05, 10:47 PM
#94
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Originally Posted by Percy
The 6.5 inchers - you'll have to take the entire thing out and make a custom baffle for the MW160's. Not a big deal. Any shop could do this but I'd still rather you guys/gals do it yourself.
Thanks for the research! We'll get all this figured out yet!
BTW what about the MW160 GT? Wouldn't that fit right in there without having to create a custom baffle?
10-24-05, 11:55 PM
#95
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Good call! I'd almost forgotten about the MW160GT. It's 5mm more shallow than the MW160 and for mounting width, it's about 9mm in diameter less. Cone area is the same and the suspension is slightly different. So, a total mounting depth of 2.44 inches vs 2.67. Diameter of 6.53 vs 6.89. There might be a chance that the MW160GT could just DROP right in!
Percy
Percy
10-25-05, 04:45 AM
#96
Doesn't the Ls430 ML system also have sound bouncing off the windshield?? Yes, it does. I doubt that is a big issue because you can always correct this with DSP setting at the factory. Many systems nowadays use the windshield to scatter the sound for better imaging. You can angle the speakers to create the right reflection.
10-25-05, 07:31 AM
#97
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Hey Percy,
I think after all the research that I've done (which is way too much already), I think what I would do is go with the MW160 GT for the mids. The mounting depth and ease of install can't be beat for the quality of the speaker IMO.
As for the tweets, this may dissapoint you, but I listen to music that sounds a lot better on metal domes. Electronic, trance, house, stuff like that. I used to have Diamond Hex silk tweets and honestly didn't like the sound of them relative to the metals. So for tweeters I think the way to go for me will be the CDT Audio's DRT-26 Aluminums.
I think with the CDT tweets and the Dynaudio mids, it will be a big improvement over stock...
I think after all the research that I've done (which is way too much already), I think what I would do is go with the MW160 GT for the mids. The mounting depth and ease of install can't be beat for the quality of the speaker IMO.
As for the tweets, this may dissapoint you, but I listen to music that sounds a lot better on metal domes. Electronic, trance, house, stuff like that. I used to have Diamond Hex silk tweets and honestly didn't like the sound of them relative to the metals. So for tweeters I think the way to go for me will be the CDT Audio's DRT-26 Aluminums.
I think with the CDT tweets and the Dynaudio mids, it will be a big improvement over stock...
Last edited by yoyoniner; 10-25-05 at 08:59 AM.
10-25-05, 09:18 AM
#98
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by tigmd99
Doesn't the Ls430 ML system also have sound bouncing off the windshield?? Yes, it does. I doubt that is a big issue because you can always correct this with DSP setting at the factory. Many systems nowadays use the windshield to scatter the sound for better imaging. You can angle the speakers to create the right reflection.
Scattered sound does NOT equate to "better imaging". It's like a throwback to the late 80's when competitor were running 20+ speakers to get the "better imaging" that you mention. They found out that simpler, higher quality components, installed correctly, and simpler configuration (ie...not bouncing sound off the windows) will yield a better and more coherent sound than any DSP can correct for that's currently on the OEM market.
Percy
10-25-05, 09:19 AM
#99
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by yoyoniner
Hey Percy,
I think after all the research that I've done (which is way too much already), I think what I would do is go with the MW160 GT for the mids. The mounting depth and ease of install can't be beat for the quality of the speaker IMO.
***Agreed!***
As for the tweets, this may dissapoint you, but I listen to music that sounds a lot better on metal domes. Electronic, trance, house, stuff like that. I used to have Diamond Hex silk tweets and honestly didn't like the sound of them relative to the metals. So for tweeters I think the way to go for me will be the CDT Audio's DRT-26 Aluminums.
***Do you hae a link for these?***
I think with the CDT tweets and the Dynaudio mids, it will be a big improvement over stock...
I think after all the research that I've done (which is way too much already), I think what I would do is go with the MW160 GT for the mids. The mounting depth and ease of install can't be beat for the quality of the speaker IMO.
***Agreed!***
As for the tweets, this may dissapoint you, but I listen to music that sounds a lot better on metal domes. Electronic, trance, house, stuff like that. I used to have Diamond Hex silk tweets and honestly didn't like the sound of them relative to the metals. So for tweeters I think the way to go for me will be the CDT Audio's DRT-26 Aluminums.
***Do you hae a link for these?***
I think with the CDT tweets and the Dynaudio mids, it will be a big improvement over stock...
Percy
10-25-05, 11:14 AM
#100
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Percy,
For the CDT tweeters: http://www.cdtaudio.com/tweeter_xover_kits.htm
I've heard these are fantastic, and it looks like they may fit in the stock location with little trouble. Let me know what you think...
Percy,
For the CDT tweeters: http://www.cdtaudio.com/tweeter_xover_kits.htm
I've heard these are fantastic, and it looks like they may fit in the stock location with little trouble. Let me know what you think...
10-25-05, 11:25 AM
#101
Percy...i agree with simple is better...however, the LS430 uses reflective sound to make good sound. As you admit to earlier, the LS430 sounds great. Why?? Maybe it's because of DSP function of the ML amplifier in the LS. For the most part, the materials & parts in LS430 are similar to other ML systems on other Lexus. Maybe it's just the bigger interior that makes ML sounds so good in the LS...not necessarily, the parts (as you claimed). Or maybe it's due to the superior sound insulation of the LS430. Or maybe the LS amplifier is under-rated as compared to other Lexus ML systems. Or maybe a combination of these factors.
My point: maybe it's not ML's fault in the IS350/GS, but rather it's the CAR environment for which ML has to design within. Thus, no matter what you put in there, it will never sound "perfect."
As stated above, i think that ML uses very good parts, even when compare to aftermarket stuff AT IT'S PRICE RANGE. Sure, Dynaudio makes good stuff...but they cost about the same as the WHOLE ML system! Given that much money, i am sure any car company can make a mind-blowing system.
Now, doesn't Volvo Dolby optional system use Dynaudio speakers, along with Alpine V12 amps and headunit?? From what i read and listen to, Mark Levinson system is better. Strange, isn't it??
My point: maybe it's not ML's fault in the IS350/GS, but rather it's the CAR environment for which ML has to design within. Thus, no matter what you put in there, it will never sound "perfect."
As stated above, i think that ML uses very good parts, even when compare to aftermarket stuff AT IT'S PRICE RANGE. Sure, Dynaudio makes good stuff...but they cost about the same as the WHOLE ML system! Given that much money, i am sure any car company can make a mind-blowing system.
Now, doesn't Volvo Dolby optional system use Dynaudio speakers, along with Alpine V12 amps and headunit?? From what i read and listen to, Mark Levinson system is better. Strange, isn't it??
Last edited by tigmd99; 10-25-05 at 11:54 AM.
10-25-05, 11:56 AM
#102
Originally Posted by yoyoniner
^
Percy,
For the CDT tweeters: http://www.cdtaudio.com/tweeter_xover_kits.htm
I've heard these are fantastic, and it looks like they may fit in the stock location with little trouble. Let me know what you think...
Percy,
For the CDT tweeters: http://www.cdtaudio.com/tweeter_xover_kits.htm
I've heard these are fantastic, and it looks like they may fit in the stock location with little trouble. Let me know what you think...
10-25-05, 12:05 PM
#103
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by tigmd99
Percy...i agree with simple is better...however, the LS430 uses reflective sound to make good sound. As you admit to earlier, the LS430 sounds great. Why?? Maybe it's because of DSP function of the ML amplifier in the LS. For the most part, the materials & parts in LS430 are similar to other ML systems on other Lexus. Maybe it's just the bigger interior that makes ML sounds so good in the LS...not necessarily, the parts (as you claimed). Or maybe it's due to the superior sound insulation of the LS430. Or maybe the LS amplifier is under-rated as compared to other Lexus ML systems. Or maybe a combination of these factors.
***LS430 uses different drivers/parts. Tuning is definitely better though.***
My point: maybe it's not ML's fault in the IS350/GS, but rather it's the CAR environment for which ML has to design within. Thus, no matter what you put in there, it will never sound "perfect."
***Which makes me wonder how much actualy time they really put into the IS when they were tuning it out. With all of the flowery and flashy language used in their advertisements, you'd think they were close to perfect. They're, imo, far from it. They still had to do a certain amount of performance to a certain price point. It's a 1k add on. If it's a stock system (pioneer) with a 1k add on (front stage only...dyns), it'll sound quite a bit better. Go over to my CA/CE board and read about speaker swapouts. Most walked away quite happy.***
As stated above, i think that ML uses very good parts, even when compare to aftermarket stuff AT IT'S PRICE RANGE. Sure, Dynaudio makes good stuff...but they cost about the same as the WHOLE ML system! Given that much money, i am sure any car company can make a mind-blowing system.
***Wasn't that the goal of ML when they first started off with Lexus? If memory serves me correctly, they were a nearly 5k option at the time. The GS still sounded like crap back then too!***
Now, doesn't Volvo Dolby optional system use Dynaudio speakers, along with Alpine V12 amps and headunit?? From what i read and listen to, Mark Levinson system is better. Strange, isn't it??
***LS430 uses different drivers/parts. Tuning is definitely better though.***
My point: maybe it's not ML's fault in the IS350/GS, but rather it's the CAR environment for which ML has to design within. Thus, no matter what you put in there, it will never sound "perfect."
***Which makes me wonder how much actualy time they really put into the IS when they were tuning it out. With all of the flowery and flashy language used in their advertisements, you'd think they were close to perfect. They're, imo, far from it. They still had to do a certain amount of performance to a certain price point. It's a 1k add on. If it's a stock system (pioneer) with a 1k add on (front stage only...dyns), it'll sound quite a bit better. Go over to my CA/CE board and read about speaker swapouts. Most walked away quite happy.***
As stated above, i think that ML uses very good parts, even when compare to aftermarket stuff AT IT'S PRICE RANGE. Sure, Dynaudio makes good stuff...but they cost about the same as the WHOLE ML system! Given that much money, i am sure any car company can make a mind-blowing system.
***Wasn't that the goal of ML when they first started off with Lexus? If memory serves me correctly, they were a nearly 5k option at the time. The GS still sounded like crap back then too!***
Now, doesn't Volvo Dolby optional system use Dynaudio speakers, along with Alpine V12 amps and headunit?? From what i read and listen to, Mark Levinson system is better. Strange, isn't it??
Percy
10-25-05, 12:09 PM
#104
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by tigmd99
IMO, combining different woofer and tweeter is a BAD idea. The Dynaudio crossover is not made for the tweeter...you are going to get bad frequency overlap. Just like it's not a good idea to mix main speakers for your home media system.
Percy
10-25-05, 01:36 PM
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Can't wait to find out more about this system. I wonder what the mounting depth is of the factory location. I would LOVE to be able to simply drop in MW160GT's. How long do you think it will be before we find out if this is possible? Same with the tweeter depths/dimensions.
Can't wait to find out more about this system. I wonder what the mounting depth is of the factory location. I would LOVE to be able to simply drop in MW160GT's. How long do you think it will be before we find out if this is possible? Same with the tweeter depths/dimensions.