Mark Levinson -vs- Pioneer - The Showdown
10-25-05, 01:47 PM
#106
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by yoyoniner
^
Can't wait to find out more about this system. I wonder what the mounting depth is of the factory location. I would LOVE to be able to simply drop in MW160GT's. How long do you think it will be before we find out if this is possible? Same with the tweeter depths/dimensions.
Can't wait to find out more about this system. I wonder what the mounting depth is of the factory location. I would LOVE to be able to simply drop in MW160GT's. How long do you think it will be before we find out if this is possible? Same with the tweeter depths/dimensions.
Percy
10-25-05, 03:56 PM
#107
The only unique part of the Mark Levinson in the LS430 is the "horn-tweeter" combo at the top of the dash...shooting frequencies off the windshield. The rest of the speakers are standard fare, pretty much identical to other Lexus ML systems.
I do agree with you, Percy...the LS430 system is wonderful. Maybe Lexus did spend more time with the LS430 than the other vehicle. BTW, the LX470 ML system sounds nice too...but it lacks a bit of bass.
I do agree with you, Percy...the LS430 system is wonderful. Maybe Lexus did spend more time with the LS430 than the other vehicle. BTW, the LX470 ML system sounds nice too...but it lacks a bit of bass.
10-26-05, 08:12 AM
#108
What is the Pioneer speakers made of? I want to get a base 350, with 18s... the likely hood of finding on like that, with ML in the next few months is close to 0. So I will probably stick with the stock system, hopefully its not made out of treated paper... which means the surrounds will rot in 3-4 years
I definatly would want the ML though, if I could get it. $900, for 13 upgraded speakers, and a sub + DVDA support. Thats tough to beat.
I definatly would want the ML though, if I could get it. $900, for 13 upgraded speakers, and a sub + DVDA support. Thats tough to beat.
Last edited by tqlla3k; 10-26-05 at 08:17 AM.
10-26-05, 08:26 AM
#109
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by tqlla3k
I definatly would want the ML though, if I could get it. $900, for 13 upgraded speakers, and a sub + DVDA support. Thats tough to beat.
10-26-05, 08:38 AM
#110
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The more I read about the Mark Levinson systems, the more I think I may not want to swap the speakers or change anything about them. I went to a couple web sites and it is universally agreed that these systems are the best of all OEM units and sound amazing. I found some interesting comments that these systems would be thousands of dollars if you were to buy them as aftermarket components, and I believe it. The mass manufacturing and standardization will only bring the price down for these components. Reading about the specs of the amplifier is impressive enough. There is no question that it is an incredible value at $1000.
I went to:
http://www.marklevinsonlexus.com/overview.asp?model=is
and read about the system in detail.... and then did a search in Google to read up on some of the reviews and press about these Mark Levinson systems (most reviews I read were for the SC430). Every review was amazingly positive... and for someone high end like Mark Levinson to put his name on the systems... it has to be at least "very good."
I really think, at least on paper, these systems are unmatched, and combining them with all the tuning and work that went into the customization of the system for each model, I am really having second thoughts on doing ANYTHING to the system. I may just want to add more bass, but the quality of materials used, the amazing amplifier, and having it all tuned for the IS350.... I am having trouble believing aftermarket components will be able to sound much better without having to pay literally thousands of dollars.
I went to:
http://www.marklevinsonlexus.com/overview.asp?model=is
and read about the system in detail.... and then did a search in Google to read up on some of the reviews and press about these Mark Levinson systems (most reviews I read were for the SC430). Every review was amazingly positive... and for someone high end like Mark Levinson to put his name on the systems... it has to be at least "very good."
I really think, at least on paper, these systems are unmatched, and combining them with all the tuning and work that went into the customization of the system for each model, I am really having second thoughts on doing ANYTHING to the system. I may just want to add more bass, but the quality of materials used, the amazing amplifier, and having it all tuned for the IS350.... I am having trouble believing aftermarket components will be able to sound much better without having to pay literally thousands of dollars.
10-26-05, 09:18 AM
#111
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by tqlla3k
What is the Pioneer speakers made of? I want to get a base 350, with 18s... the likely hood of finding on like that, with ML in the next few months is close to 0. So I will probably stick with the stock system, hopefully its not made out of treated paper... which means the surrounds will rot in 3-4 years
I definatly would want the ML though, if I could get it. $900, for 13 upgraded speakers, and a sub + DVDA support. Thats tough to beat.
I definatly would want the ML though, if I could get it. $900, for 13 upgraded speakers, and a sub + DVDA support. Thats tough to beat.
Percy
10-26-05, 09:36 AM
#112
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by yoyoniner
The more I read about the Mark Levinson systems, the more I think I may not want to swap the speakers or change anything about them. I went to a couple web sites and it is universally agreed that these systems are the best of all OEM units and sound amazing.
***Were these web sites on the levinson site also? Like most good marketers, they'll only let you know about the really good reviews...***
I found some interesting comments that these systems would be thousands of dollars if you were to buy them as aftermarket components, and I believe it. The mass manufacturing and standardization will only bring the price down for these components. Reading about the specs of the amplifier is impressive enough.
***The amp specs do not tell the entire story. Like most "benchmarks", they'll only tell you what you want to see and hear. Very rarely will they tell EVERYTHING. One of the specs will say "all channels driven, 20-20khz, at less than .1% thd." What does this mean? Not much really. If you take the jargon apart, they're not telling you which power level it the distortion was measured at, and for good reason. If they drove the amp at LESS than the fully rated spec, the distortion level becomes much much higher. Why drive the amp at less than fully rated power? Easy...you're not listening to all 300 watts at once, are you? Most people will only use about 10 watts, possibly 100 at loud sessions. Distortion is much higher at those levels than at fully driven power levels. Put the amp on a decent test bench and you'll see the effects.***
There is no question that it is an incredible value at $1000.
***But does value = high performance?***
I went to:
http://www.marklevinsonlexus.com/overview.asp?model=is
and read about the system in detail.... and then did a search in Google to read up on some of the reviews and press about these Mark Levinson systems (most reviews I read were for the SC430). Every review was amazingly positive... and for someone high end like Mark Levinson to put his name on the systems... it has to be at least "very good."
***That's the reviews that they published. No doubt they won't publish mine.
***
I really think, at least on paper, these systems are unmatched, and combining them with all the tuning and work that went into the customization of the system for each model, I am really having second thoughts on doing ANYTHING to the system. I may just want to add more bass, but the quality of materials used, the amazing amplifier, and having it all tuned for the IS350.... I am having trouble believing aftermarket components will be able to sound much better without having to pay literally thousands of dollars.
***Were these web sites on the levinson site also? Like most good marketers, they'll only let you know about the really good reviews...***
I found some interesting comments that these systems would be thousands of dollars if you were to buy them as aftermarket components, and I believe it. The mass manufacturing and standardization will only bring the price down for these components. Reading about the specs of the amplifier is impressive enough.
***The amp specs do not tell the entire story. Like most "benchmarks", they'll only tell you what you want to see and hear. Very rarely will they tell EVERYTHING. One of the specs will say "all channels driven, 20-20khz, at less than .1% thd." What does this mean? Not much really. If you take the jargon apart, they're not telling you which power level it the distortion was measured at, and for good reason. If they drove the amp at LESS than the fully rated spec, the distortion level becomes much much higher. Why drive the amp at less than fully rated power? Easy...you're not listening to all 300 watts at once, are you? Most people will only use about 10 watts, possibly 100 at loud sessions. Distortion is much higher at those levels than at fully driven power levels. Put the amp on a decent test bench and you'll see the effects.***
There is no question that it is an incredible value at $1000.
***But does value = high performance?***
I went to:
http://www.marklevinsonlexus.com/overview.asp?model=is
and read about the system in detail.... and then did a search in Google to read up on some of the reviews and press about these Mark Levinson systems (most reviews I read were for the SC430). Every review was amazingly positive... and for someone high end like Mark Levinson to put his name on the systems... it has to be at least "very good."
***That's the reviews that they published. No doubt they won't publish mine.
***I really think, at least on paper, these systems are unmatched, and combining them with all the tuning and work that went into the customization of the system for each model, I am really having second thoughts on doing ANYTHING to the system. I may just want to add more bass, but the quality of materials used, the amazing amplifier, and having it all tuned for the IS350.... I am having trouble believing aftermarket components will be able to sound much better without having to pay literally thousands of dollars.
Percy
10-26-05, 10:36 AM
#113
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Marketing Jargon - Mark Levinson
Guys/Gals,
Time for a long briefing on the marketing jargon. This session, we'll pick on the ML system and it's flowery language. For those that don't have the paper handy, here's a quick link to what I'm deciphering.
http://www.marklevinsonlexus.com/overview.asp?model=is
Let's take a look at the "all digital signal path". They're comparing (and misleading) about how "fragile" analog signals are. Guess what...the interface that they're talking about SPDIF (sony phillips digital interface format) is STANDARD issue among ALL CD players. Nothing really special. What they're NOT telling you is HOW they're implementing and transporting the digital signal. Is it via Fiber Optic? (NO!) How about ST-Gen? (also another fiber optic..and also a NO answer.) Even the most affordable fiber optic will say TOSLINK, that is Toshiba Link. What ML is using is a standard copper wire interface, and that is JUST as fragile to noise as an audio analog signal. "sonic degradation due to noise and magnetic interference". Guess what...a non fiber optic digital link will have this problem too. It's still affected by the same physics since it's being transported via copper wire.
10 channels, 300 watts. 100 watts for the sub, so that leaves 200 watts for the other 9 channels. If it's equally distributed, they would only have 22 watts each. I already wrote about the amplifier stuff in my last post, and they have a bit of techno/market hype listed. They do not list signal to noise ratio, nor channel seperation, nor 20-20khz AT BELOW RATED POWER. The reasoning behind "at below rated power"? Easy...you're not listening to the full 300 watts on a constant basis. More than likely you'll only be listening to 1, 10 or maybe even 100 watts. There is more distortion at below rated power than there is AT rated power. Marketing tricks.
"Metal Cone geometries for greater rigidity and lower mass." Ok...sounds great on paper doesn't it? Great rigidity = poorer damping = higher distortion = higher ringing = not so good. Some manufacturers will tout that their hard dome mid or tweet is "superior" in rigidity and strength than the "other" soft dome tweeter. What they almost never advertise is their decay plots, that is, how much energy is still left over after producing a note. With a good system, this transient (quick sharp signal) is properly damped without ringing. They still haven't been able to do this with metal or hard domes/ hard cones. Yes, it might look good on a frequency response graph, or even on a technobabble slick ad, but it doesn't sound nearly as good. The ringing effects can be kinda like watching an old TV...part of the other image hasn't been completely cleared out yet and the image will look like there's ghosting and smearing going on. With audio speakers, and hard dome material/hard cone material, the energy hasn't been rapidly cleared out yet, leading to distortion and smearing. Really messes up coherence in sound.
"Neo magnet provides higher flux levels". Fine. AS COMPARED TO WHAT? There are MANY grades of neo magnets out there, some of the poorer ones not worth mentioning in a speaker magnet. If it's a high grade strontium vs a high grade neo, then it's a double edged sword. If we take a midwoofer with a strontium magnet vs a midwoofer with a neo magnet, both high quality magnet systems, something wierd occurs. The neo magnet will have a stronger field, AT a single plane. If the voice coil is immersed within the field at the strongest level, it'll work great. But, most voice coils aren't stationary are they? (if it was, it wouldn't be called a transducer/speaker) As soon as the coil moves slightly OUT of the mag field, it's not truly effective anymore. Strontium mags are a bit more even in field, though they are heavier. Don't let the Neo magnet fool you...many grades, many different design considerations. Many companies will tout the Neo magnet as a "high end future solution" on paper, but in practice it's different. That's why Dyn continues to use a dual magnet system, to make sure that their coil is completely immersed in the magnetic field at all times, even during xmax excursion. Yes, their neo systems are also dual magnets...no other manufacturer uses this array that I know of.
Inverted subwoofer. These were an offshoot of the Infinity Kappa series back in the late '90's. They were experimenting with inverted domes, paper cone, gel coated geometry with neo magnets. They didn't sound very good at all and had about a 100 wpc handling capacity. Seems like they went to the recycling bin. The IS has more than enough room for a full magnet, non inverted dome with a good speaker suspension. BUT, it's cheaper to make the inverted dome, space saving, cost saving sub.
More technohype/marketing will be deciphered as needed.
Percy
Time for a long briefing on the marketing jargon. This session, we'll pick on the ML system and it's flowery language. For those that don't have the paper handy, here's a quick link to what I'm deciphering.
http://www.marklevinsonlexus.com/overview.asp?model=is
Let's take a look at the "all digital signal path". They're comparing (and misleading) about how "fragile" analog signals are. Guess what...the interface that they're talking about SPDIF (sony phillips digital interface format) is STANDARD issue among ALL CD players. Nothing really special. What they're NOT telling you is HOW they're implementing and transporting the digital signal. Is it via Fiber Optic? (NO!) How about ST-Gen? (also another fiber optic..and also a NO answer.) Even the most affordable fiber optic will say TOSLINK, that is Toshiba Link. What ML is using is a standard copper wire interface, and that is JUST as fragile to noise as an audio analog signal. "sonic degradation due to noise and magnetic interference". Guess what...a non fiber optic digital link will have this problem too. It's still affected by the same physics since it's being transported via copper wire.
10 channels, 300 watts. 100 watts for the sub, so that leaves 200 watts for the other 9 channels. If it's equally distributed, they would only have 22 watts each. I already wrote about the amplifier stuff in my last post, and they have a bit of techno/market hype listed. They do not list signal to noise ratio, nor channel seperation, nor 20-20khz AT BELOW RATED POWER. The reasoning behind "at below rated power"? Easy...you're not listening to the full 300 watts on a constant basis. More than likely you'll only be listening to 1, 10 or maybe even 100 watts. There is more distortion at below rated power than there is AT rated power. Marketing tricks.
"Metal Cone geometries for greater rigidity and lower mass." Ok...sounds great on paper doesn't it? Great rigidity = poorer damping = higher distortion = higher ringing = not so good. Some manufacturers will tout that their hard dome mid or tweet is "superior" in rigidity and strength than the "other" soft dome tweeter. What they almost never advertise is their decay plots, that is, how much energy is still left over after producing a note. With a good system, this transient (quick sharp signal) is properly damped without ringing. They still haven't been able to do this with metal or hard domes/ hard cones. Yes, it might look good on a frequency response graph, or even on a technobabble slick ad, but it doesn't sound nearly as good. The ringing effects can be kinda like watching an old TV...part of the other image hasn't been completely cleared out yet and the image will look like there's ghosting and smearing going on. With audio speakers, and hard dome material/hard cone material, the energy hasn't been rapidly cleared out yet, leading to distortion and smearing. Really messes up coherence in sound.
"Neo magnet provides higher flux levels". Fine. AS COMPARED TO WHAT? There are MANY grades of neo magnets out there, some of the poorer ones not worth mentioning in a speaker magnet. If it's a high grade strontium vs a high grade neo, then it's a double edged sword. If we take a midwoofer with a strontium magnet vs a midwoofer with a neo magnet, both high quality magnet systems, something wierd occurs. The neo magnet will have a stronger field, AT a single plane. If the voice coil is immersed within the field at the strongest level, it'll work great. But, most voice coils aren't stationary are they? (if it was, it wouldn't be called a transducer/speaker) As soon as the coil moves slightly OUT of the mag field, it's not truly effective anymore. Strontium mags are a bit more even in field, though they are heavier. Don't let the Neo magnet fool you...many grades, many different design considerations. Many companies will tout the Neo magnet as a "high end future solution" on paper, but in practice it's different. That's why Dyn continues to use a dual magnet system, to make sure that their coil is completely immersed in the magnetic field at all times, even during xmax excursion. Yes, their neo systems are also dual magnets...no other manufacturer uses this array that I know of.
Inverted subwoofer. These were an offshoot of the Infinity Kappa series back in the late '90's. They were experimenting with inverted domes, paper cone, gel coated geometry with neo magnets. They didn't sound very good at all and had about a 100 wpc handling capacity. Seems like they went to the recycling bin. The IS has more than enough room for a full magnet, non inverted dome with a good speaker suspension. BUT, it's cheaper to make the inverted dome, space saving, cost saving sub.
More technohype/marketing will be deciphered as needed.
Percy
10-26-05, 11:05 AM
#114
Percy, good points.
A few things:
- Isn't 300 watts RMS (continuous power)?? THD is lower than most aftermarket amps...much lower than my Infinity Reference amp in my Corolla. Isn't this good?? I still prefer their ratings over some other manufacturer that list MAX power rating.
- Metal cones = stronger woofer = better sound. Worsen dampening?? I don't see that. You're disputing with 99% of aftermarket speakers claims, including high-end aftermarket speakers.
If a speaker is not like Dynaudio, does that make it bad?? It seems that this is your message. Is Dynaudio paying you to say all this?? Just kidding.
- I agree with metal TWEETERs. I don't like metal tweeters...but again, if you can attenuate it, then it will sound good. AGAIN, the LS430 has metal tweeters too...and it sounds good...we both agree. Does Lexus have buty surround around the metal tweeters??
Again, Percy, you're comparing a $5-10,000 system to Mark Levinson's $1K system. Not fair. I can have $200000000 system, but if the installation is crap, then it's all wasted money. Trust me, i have ran across some bad installation, even from high reputable places.
You say...DIY. Sure, but how many of us have the time or skill to do it expertly?? How many of us know the car as well as the Lexus mechanics??
********Challenge to Percy et al.:
Show me a $1000 aftermarket system (including installation, tools, wiring, etc) that can match ML's system. Give me the specific components, subs, amps, wiring, etc....and show me where to get them so that i can check on the price. I know the answer because i just built one for my Corolla. Conclusion: i much prefer ML over mine.
A few things:
- Isn't 300 watts RMS (continuous power)?? THD is lower than most aftermarket amps...much lower than my Infinity Reference amp in my Corolla. Isn't this good?? I still prefer their ratings over some other manufacturer that list MAX power rating.
- Metal cones = stronger woofer = better sound. Worsen dampening?? I don't see that. You're disputing with 99% of aftermarket speakers claims, including high-end aftermarket speakers.
If a speaker is not like Dynaudio, does that make it bad?? It seems that this is your message. Is Dynaudio paying you to say all this?? Just kidding.
- I agree with metal TWEETERs. I don't like metal tweeters...but again, if you can attenuate it, then it will sound good. AGAIN, the LS430 has metal tweeters too...and it sounds good...we both agree. Does Lexus have buty surround around the metal tweeters??
Again, Percy, you're comparing a $5-10,000 system to Mark Levinson's $1K system. Not fair. I can have $200000000 system, but if the installation is crap, then it's all wasted money. Trust me, i have ran across some bad installation, even from high reputable places.
You say...DIY. Sure, but how many of us have the time or skill to do it expertly?? How many of us know the car as well as the Lexus mechanics??
********Challenge to Percy et al.:
Show me a $1000 aftermarket system (including installation, tools, wiring, etc) that can match ML's system. Give me the specific components, subs, amps, wiring, etc....and show me where to get them so that i can check on the price. I know the answer because i just built one for my Corolla. Conclusion: i much prefer ML over mine.
10-26-05, 11:12 AM
#115
Originally Posted by yoyoniner
The more I read about the Mark Levinson systems, the more I think I may not want to swap the speakers or change anything about them.
I may just want to add more bass, but the quality of materials used, the amazing amplifier, and having it all tuned for the IS350.... I am having trouble believing aftermarket components will be able to sound much better without having to pay literally thousands of dollars.
I may just want to add more bass, but the quality of materials used, the amazing amplifier, and having it all tuned for the IS350.... I am having trouble believing aftermarket components will be able to sound much better without having to pay literally thousands of dollars.
Go listen to it. I am sure that you will be very pleased. Remember, any little improvement of Dynaudio speakers (STILL bad idea IMO) will be overshadowed by road/wind noise or wife.
10-26-05, 11:13 AM
#116
i don't get it. percy, i think you've beaten the idea that you pretty much detest the ML system and that your aftermarket system will kick it left and right. but for most (maybe, i dunno, 85% of us, even more) can't even tell the difference between the two, and the ML will be pretty superior than anything else we've ever owned. so i'm not really sure what the point of this thread is.. it's not comparing the stock pioneer system with the ML anymore, it's comparing an ML system with an aftermarket system BASED on the stock system?
10-26-05, 12:17 PM
#117
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by tigmd99
Percy, good points.
A few things:
- Isn't 300 watts RMS (continuous power)?? THD is lower than most aftermarket amps...much lower than my Infinity Reference amp in my Corolla. Isn't this good?? I still prefer their ratings over some other manufacturer that list MAX power rating.
***Others still list the power rating in both MAX and continous. Alpine does this but markets the MAX rating for numbers.***
- Metal cones = stronger woofer = better sound. Worsen dampening?? I don't see that. You're disputing with 99% of aftermarket speakers claims, including high-end aftermarket speakers.
***Give me the decay plots and I'll show you whats going on. Most manufacturers will NOT supply the decay plots, not even MBQ. Or, make a really strong midwoofer out of aluminum with no damping. Let me know what you get. They'll make SUBS out of aluminum since it's not close to the metals resonant frequency. Once when you run a speaker close to resonant...bad things happen.***
If a speaker is not like Dynaudio, does that make it bad?? It seems that this is your message. Is Dynaudio paying you to say all this?? Just kidding.
***They're the only company that will provide pretty much all the info and if you dig deep enough, decay plots. Show me another company that will do this. Send me the links.***
- I agree with metal TWEETERs. I don't like metal tweeters...but again, if you can attenuate it, then it will sound good.
***Not true! The ringing and the tuning of their suspension will STILL be there! Or try this with MBQ HX25's or any of their metal tweets. You can have it tuned down to -6dB and it'll still be a pain. Used to have these as well as 160.03, 130.03, 130.02, 218.03 (2 sets) as well as Infinity EMITS, EMIMs, L-EMIM...***
AGAIN, the LS430 has metal tweeters too...and it sounds good...we both agree. Does Lexus have buty surround around the metal tweeters??
***Have to take a look. Isn't it a HLCD tweet/mid combo? In that case, there would be no surround as it's integral to the horn.***
Again, Percy, you're comparing a $5-10,000 system to Mark Levinson's $1K system. Not fair. I can have $200000000 system, but if the installation is crap, then it's all wasted money. Trust me, i have ran across some bad installation, even from high reputable places.
***Yes, true! But as I said before, for a company that's touting 2 billion dollars
in a system, for them to knock it down to 1k just trips off the BS detector. Can't see them building the "best" for only 1k, unless they're really really mass producing. Even then, they're in the business to make money. Stock company - makes it sound good to the public owners.***
You say...DIY. Sure, but how many of us have the time or skill to do it expertly??
***Time? Probably not many. As for skill, I would say that 95 percent are more than capable. The other 5 percent would have never even seen the inside of a car or have handled power tools. Or even a saw or screwdriver.***
How many of us know the car as well as the Lexus mechanics??
***Give you the EWD, Tear down manuals, service bulletins, talent and all the tools and you'll be 60 percent there. That's not a bad start. The rest is from experience.***
********Challenge to Percy et al.:
Show me a $1000 aftermarket system (including installation, tools, wiring, etc) that can match ML's system. Give me the specific components, subs, amps, wiring, etc....and show me where to get them so that i can check on the price. I know the answer because i just built one for my Corolla. Conclusion: i much prefer ML over mine.
A few things:
- Isn't 300 watts RMS (continuous power)?? THD is lower than most aftermarket amps...much lower than my Infinity Reference amp in my Corolla. Isn't this good?? I still prefer their ratings over some other manufacturer that list MAX power rating.
***Others still list the power rating in both MAX and continous. Alpine does this but markets the MAX rating for numbers.***
- Metal cones = stronger woofer = better sound. Worsen dampening?? I don't see that. You're disputing with 99% of aftermarket speakers claims, including high-end aftermarket speakers.
***Give me the decay plots and I'll show you whats going on. Most manufacturers will NOT supply the decay plots, not even MBQ. Or, make a really strong midwoofer out of aluminum with no damping. Let me know what you get. They'll make SUBS out of aluminum since it's not close to the metals resonant frequency. Once when you run a speaker close to resonant...bad things happen.***
If a speaker is not like Dynaudio, does that make it bad?? It seems that this is your message. Is Dynaudio paying you to say all this?? Just kidding.
***They're the only company that will provide pretty much all the info and if you dig deep enough, decay plots. Show me another company that will do this. Send me the links.***
- I agree with metal TWEETERs. I don't like metal tweeters...but again, if you can attenuate it, then it will sound good.
***Not true! The ringing and the tuning of their suspension will STILL be there! Or try this with MBQ HX25's or any of their metal tweets. You can have it tuned down to -6dB and it'll still be a pain. Used to have these as well as 160.03, 130.03, 130.02, 218.03 (2 sets) as well as Infinity EMITS, EMIMs, L-EMIM...***
AGAIN, the LS430 has metal tweeters too...and it sounds good...we both agree. Does Lexus have buty surround around the metal tweeters??
***Have to take a look. Isn't it a HLCD tweet/mid combo? In that case, there would be no surround as it's integral to the horn.***
Again, Percy, you're comparing a $5-10,000 system to Mark Levinson's $1K system. Not fair. I can have $200000000 system, but if the installation is crap, then it's all wasted money. Trust me, i have ran across some bad installation, even from high reputable places.
***Yes, true! But as I said before, for a company that's touting 2 billion dollars
in a system, for them to knock it down to 1k just trips off the BS detector. Can't see them building the "best" for only 1k, unless they're really really mass producing. Even then, they're in the business to make money. Stock company - makes it sound good to the public owners.***You say...DIY. Sure, but how many of us have the time or skill to do it expertly??
***Time? Probably not many. As for skill, I would say that 95 percent are more than capable. The other 5 percent would have never even seen the inside of a car or have handled power tools. Or even a saw or screwdriver.***
How many of us know the car as well as the Lexus mechanics??
***Give you the EWD, Tear down manuals, service bulletins, talent and all the tools and you'll be 60 percent there. That's not a bad start. The rest is from experience.***
********Challenge to Percy et al.:
Show me a $1000 aftermarket system (including installation, tools, wiring, etc) that can match ML's system. Give me the specific components, subs, amps, wiring, etc....and show me where to get them so that i can check on the price. I know the answer because i just built one for my Corolla. Conclusion: i much prefer ML over mine.
How about this. OEM to OEM. Volvo S80. HU850 system. Dyn stuff. Invoices at a touch over a grand. I'd like to take the IS350/ML or GS430/ML vs the Volvo HU850 system. Better yet, let's make it a matchup on the IS350/ML vs Volvo HU850. Should be interesting.Percy
10-26-05, 12:25 PM
#118
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by knihc2008
i don't get it. percy, i think you've beaten the idea that you pretty much detest the ML system and that your aftermarket system will kick it left and right. but for most (maybe, i dunno, 85% of us, even more) can't even tell the difference between the two, and the ML will be pretty superior than anything else we've ever owned. so i'm not really sure what the point of this thread is.. it's not comparing the stock pioneer system with the ML anymore, it's comparing an ML system with an aftermarket system BASED on the stock system?
Most consumers WON'T know what to listen for and will buy into the techno hype babble that systems offer you. There is a difference between hearing and truly listening into the music that you listen to. What was your last system? Bose? Infinity?
The only ML system that I would wait for would be the one in the LS430, and I recommend that without any reservation. The one in the GS absolutely sucks by comparison. The IS...haven't had one here to listen to. I'll give you feedback on that, but I highly doubt it'll come close in SOUND QUALITY of the LS430. If you want to jump a notch up for the LS430, then aftermarket, properly installed and equipped.
Percy
10-26-05, 12:35 PM
#119
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by tigmd99
Yup. This is what i have been trying to say. It's hard to beat ML system aftermarket given it's price.
Go listen to it. I am sure that you will be very pleased. Remember, any little improvement of Dynaudio speakers (STILL bad idea IMO) will be overshadowed by road/wind noise or wife.
Go listen to it. I am sure that you will be very pleased. Remember, any little improvement of Dynaudio speakers (STILL bad idea IMO) will be overshadowed by road/wind noise or wife.
Now as for WIFE...that's louder than anything aftermarket or even a space shuttle launch has to offer. You're 100% right. Nothing compares to the aftermath (aftermarket or OEM) when the wife goes off. I've always said that marriage (most cases) is a contract that is in favor of the woman...guys get screwed over in a bad way. Now if yours is one of the extremely rare ones, then congrats to you! BTW...The extremely rare ones would let you buy 10k of aftermarket without any negative effects, not even in the slightest, and no "bait and switch" - the real guys know what I'm talking about.
Percy
