Why doesn't Lexus build better handling cars?
11-12-05, 01:14 PM
#31
Rookie
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the typical suburban driving that I do, it's true that I rarely push a car beyond 5/10. This is one reason I personally drive a Mazda Protege5--I'm much nearer the car's limits in my typical driving than I would be in, say, a 3-Series.
But in some great-handling cars the difference is obvious at even this level. Most of these are sports cars like the Miata, Z3 (okay, more entertaining than great handling), and RX-8. I don't feel that the old 3 belongs in this list, but the new one does. Steering feel is a big part of this. Great steering is enjoyable pretty much every turn you take. It's rare in cars with four doors. Even the new 3 could be better.
On the other hand, many people live in areas with a lot of hilly, curvy roads. These are people I envy.
But in some great-handling cars the difference is obvious at even this level. Most of these are sports cars like the Miata, Z3 (okay, more entertaining than great handling), and RX-8. I don't feel that the old 3 belongs in this list, but the new one does. Steering feel is a big part of this. Great steering is enjoyable pretty much every turn you take. It's rare in cars with four doors. Even the new 3 could be better.
On the other hand, many people live in areas with a lot of hilly, curvy roads. These are people I envy.
Originally Posted by lovemytrx
How many people are actually going to push their cars to the limits where there would be a noticeable difference in the handling between BMW and LEXUS?
The only place that I could think of where a person would appreciate the edge in handling would be at a roadcourse or autox, otherwise its just not necessary, other than bragging rights.
Of course bragging rights do add up to sales, but Lexus has their own bragging rights since the IS is so much faster in a straight line than the 330i.
The only place that I could think of where a person would appreciate the edge in handling would be at a roadcourse or autox, otherwise its just not necessary, other than bragging rights.
Of course bragging rights do add up to sales, but Lexus has their own bragging rights since the IS is so much faster in a straight line than the 330i.
11-12-05, 03:47 PM
#32
Originally Posted by BradmanOH
I am a recent convert from a BMW330xi and I think many people are missing an important part of the equation. Both of my previous BMW's were in the shop numerous times, sometimes for major issues. My first BMW left my wife and I stranded at an Arby's drive through when the battery shorted out. Talk about a fun time, pushing your new car into a parking spot while the entire resturant watches. . . . Whee! When I picked up the car the next day they said that some of the cars had defective batteries and mine must have been one of them. Then the transmission started popping out of 2nd, after a new transmission they again said that they had found some cars had some incorrect linkages. That first car was in the shop 13 times in 24 months. I jumped over to Audi and didn't have any issues but I didn't like the "feel" of the car, especially at higher speeds. I returned to BMW with the 330xi and I only had a few issues but I just didn't enjoy the interior and the looks.
My IS350 has performed perfectly from day one and I have been very impressed with the build quality and technology features.
Lexus has moved into BMW's performance territory but it is bringing Lexus reliability and luxury (which is a pretty big feature set). Sure Lexus could tighten up the handling a bit, but I could almost guarantee that they would get a lot of comments that the car rides rough and isn't comfortable. I think Lexus is the perfect blend of performance and luxury but everyone will have their own version of the perfect combination.
Bradman
My IS350 has performed perfectly from day one and I have been very impressed with the build quality and technology features.
Lexus has moved into BMW's performance territory but it is bringing Lexus reliability and luxury (which is a pretty big feature set). Sure Lexus could tighten up the handling a bit, but I could almost guarantee that they would get a lot of comments that the car rides rough and isn't comfortable. I think Lexus is the perfect blend of performance and luxury but everyone will have their own version of the perfect combination.
Bradman
Among forums, there are people who read a lot and drive very little. IS350 Sport is definetly not an slow or bad handling car. I doubt anyone driving on public roads will be faster in 330i, in fact, the opposite IS true. If you are turning on VDIM on public road that means that you are either an pretty bad driver or you are trying to turn it on (ie giving too much power in bends).
Its BMW marketing power - even if their car is slower, it will be "faster". When G35 came out, it was a lot faster car than 330i with 215hp... It killed it out right, yet BMW was still "better". When IS350 came out, it killed 330i in performance yet BMW was "better". It is an priviledge they pay huge amounts of advertising dollars for.
This is very much true in USA. In Europe, especially in Germany, this is not so. They are not afraid to say other cars are better (especially if they are German as well). I have yet to see one comparo from German magazine who did not call 330i underpowered, and that 330i won against C350 (faster) or A4 3.2FSI (cheaper).
If you have many new IS drivers, who were BMW drivers once, and are pretty happy with IS handling, what are even talking about?
11-12-05, 08:01 PM
#33
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: OH
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BMW vs Lexus
I agree with your point. BMW has a tremendous legacy of racing and some amazing cars. In truth, most cars today won't be driven even close to their capacity. Just today I had a KIA riding my butt on the interstate. We were both goin 75mph and he didn't have any problem keeping up with me (except when there was a break in the traffic and I could stretch my cars "legs"), I eventually let him go by because obviously he was late for an ego transplant.
Anyway, one thing I noticed about my BMW's is that they NEVER felt unstable or uncontrollable. Sure I could break them loose but I always felt like I pushed the limit, not the car. Ergonomics on the other hand . . . . The interior feels about as warm as a steel box. Each car has it's strengths and we should just enjoy what we have.
I used to hang out on numerous Miata forums, when I had one of them, but I stopped because all the conversations ended up being about how great the Miata was and how crappy everything else was. Let's not digress down into the "everybody else sucks" discussions.
BMW and Lexus both build great cars. We dont' have to feel superior to enjoy our own.
I'll be happy to give a BMW owner a ride to the dealer to pickup their car from the service department . . . .
BradmanOH
Anyway, one thing I noticed about my BMW's is that they NEVER felt unstable or uncontrollable. Sure I could break them loose but I always felt like I pushed the limit, not the car. Ergonomics on the other hand . . . . The interior feels about as warm as a steel box. Each car has it's strengths and we should just enjoy what we have.
I used to hang out on numerous Miata forums, when I had one of them, but I stopped because all the conversations ended up being about how great the Miata was and how crappy everything else was. Let's not digress down into the "everybody else sucks" discussions.
BMW and Lexus both build great cars. We dont' have to feel superior to enjoy our own.
I'll be happy to give a BMW owner a ride to the dealer to pickup their car from the service department . . . .
BradmanOH
11-13-05, 07:48 AM
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by mkaresh
In the typical suburban driving that I do, it's true that I rarely push a car beyond 5/10. This is one reason I personally drive a Mazda Protege5--I'm much nearer the car's limits in my typical driving than I would be in, say, a 3-Series.
But in some great-handling cars the difference is obvious at even this level. Most of these are sports cars like the Miata, Z3 (okay, more entertaining than great handling), and RX-8. I don't feel that the old 3 belongs in this list, but the new one does. Steering feel is a big part of this. Great steering is enjoyable pretty much every turn you take. It's rare in cars with four doors. Even the new 3 could be better.
On the other hand, many people live in areas with a lot of hilly, curvy roads. These are people I envy.
But in some great-handling cars the difference is obvious at even this level. Most of these are sports cars like the Miata, Z3 (okay, more entertaining than great handling), and RX-8. I don't feel that the old 3 belongs in this list, but the new one does. Steering feel is a big part of this. Great steering is enjoyable pretty much every turn you take. It's rare in cars with four doors. Even the new 3 could be better.
On the other hand, many people live in areas with a lot of hilly, curvy roads. These are people I envy.
My GOODNESS you bring up a FABULOUS report. I need to find and scan the article in EVO, where an editorial is about this.
The Fact this one editor picks low hp cars to drive and insists he has more fun in a Toyota Yaris than in a Ferrari or Porsche b/c in the Yaris (and comparable cars) you have to shift like mad and since the car is not overpowering, you really get to drive it and push it to the limits, even on a small road.
With all these sports cars, the limits can rarely or are never explored and they ahev so much power no matter what gear your in, its almost pointless.
Great point dude
11-20-05, 09:07 PM
#35
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: ca
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i've driven an is350 at the lexus test event thing.
on the closed course. it just is not a bmw in th corners. now i don't own a bmw, but i drove a 530i at the same event , and have driven various e46s at other times.
i am not sure exactly what it was, but the bmws just had much better steering feedback as well as what seemed like better feel on the brakes. also the bmws would let you slide the tail a bit (i suppose the is350 does now with that ridiculous code) but even with traction control on a bmw has a bigger tolerance so you can still slide it.
i used to own a g35 coupe, and i'd say that in fast corners feels better than the is350 too. the is350 (g35 does too though) feels pretty heavy. i drove a gs430 at the event, and the is350 almost felt as heavy as that, and that just isnt right.
now i don't own a lexus , bmw or infiniti now (i have an acura tsx) but yeah lexus needs to do something about their handling and "feel". i suppose it is a subjective thing, but the "feel" just isnt there. their cars are too... deliberate i guess. i suppose that sells it to well normal people and they make money like that, but they need to make like a special version that doesnt have that and weighs less.
on the closed course. it just is not a bmw in th corners. now i don't own a bmw, but i drove a 530i at the same event , and have driven various e46s at other times.
i am not sure exactly what it was, but the bmws just had much better steering feedback as well as what seemed like better feel on the brakes. also the bmws would let you slide the tail a bit (i suppose the is350 does now with that ridiculous code) but even with traction control on a bmw has a bigger tolerance so you can still slide it.
i used to own a g35 coupe, and i'd say that in fast corners feels better than the is350 too. the is350 (g35 does too though) feels pretty heavy. i drove a gs430 at the event, and the is350 almost felt as heavy as that, and that just isnt right.
now i don't own a lexus , bmw or infiniti now (i have an acura tsx) but yeah lexus needs to do something about their handling and "feel". i suppose it is a subjective thing, but the "feel" just isnt there. their cars are too... deliberate i guess. i suppose that sells it to well normal people and they make money like that, but they need to make like a special version that doesnt have that and weighs less.
11-21-05, 03:44 AM
#36
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty of creating a great handling car which also rides well. Any engineering task where the "human interface" is such a vital part of the equation is going to be dependent on knowledge and experience more so than textbook theory. The textbooks are readily available, but that special knowledge is locked away in the brains of the senior engineers; and they aren't in the business of educating their rivals. All the makes are progressing, but it would not be surprising that one make is still appreciably ahead in this area.
Beside which I don't know if the Japanese yet have what it takes at the very top level of suspension design. Just look at who does the suspension work for Formula 1 and MotoGP.
Beside which I don't know if the Japanese yet have what it takes at the very top level of suspension design. Just look at who does the suspension work for Formula 1 and MotoGP.
11-21-05, 10:31 AM
#37
Lexus Test Driver
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kansas
Posts: 827
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why doesn't Lexus build better performing car!? Well, why doesn't BMW build more luxurious car with better ergonomics? I'd think that is an easier task than making a car that performs well on the track without compromising real world comfort.
11-21-05, 08:17 PM
#38
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: California
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder how many BMW owners bought their bimmers for its handling. Many of them just like the look and the prestige feel. Sometimes I think why do you need a car that can handle so well? I see that as a bonus, not a must.
11-22-05, 03:50 AM
#39
Driver
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Satellite Bch, FL
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TwiBlueG35
I wonder how many BMW owners bought their bimmers for its handling. Many of them just like the look and the prestige feel. Sometimes I think why do you need a car that can handle so well? I see that as a bonus, not a must.
11-22-05, 07:39 AM
#40
Rookie
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BMW's objective is to build cars that have sportier handling than the competitors. It is mainly so, because of image that they have created for themselves with marketing and overall product strategy. Mercedes means luxury. Audi means quattro. BMW means handling. Lexus means quality. Lets not forget we have enthusiast community here. We think that we are better drivers than average, we think that we know more about cars than the average person etc. So are the automotive journalists. All the good press BMW gets is because of that. That creates lot of hype for BMW and from there the expression "class benchmark" 
has got started. BUT the average luxury car buyer is not car enthusiast. Most people appreciate the overall package that luxury car has to offer. An I belive Lexus offers the best overall package with the IS. Automotive journalists are not average luxury car buyers (wiht very few exeptions), they don't really understand the comfort and pleasure that excellent service provides, they don't know how to value a quiet cabin and refined overall feel of the car etc. They only praise handling.
I have driven both BMW 325i and IS250. BMW's powersteering is underpowered in a sense that the steering feels harder and for example in a parking lot the steering wheel is more harder to turn. Sound insulation is weak, lot of engine and roadnoise comes into the cabin - especially compared to the IS250. BMW feels lighter and acceleration is slightly better. Steering wheel is small and very thick - belongs more to a sports car than luxury car. I wouldn't classify bmw 3-series as a luxury car. It's a 4-door sports car with leather interior. It lacks lot of details that that shold be present in a luxury sedan, more important it lacks the feel of a luxury car. IS250 has the right feel and has those important details. Lowest engine option for E90 in Europe is 318i, what kind of luxury car is that? What message bmw sends out to their customers? In Europe in some markets E46 sold as much as VW Passat. Lexus is part of Toyota, so it doesn't have to sell underpowered and poorly equipped versions of it's IS. Toyota has its own cheaper priced models for that. But 3-series is BMW's cash cow, so it has to sell them as many as possible.
I think 325i is not better handling than IS250, BMW just has sportier handling. IS250 handling is sharp, refined, solid and smooth. BMW-s handling is more sports orientaited. Sports doesn't mean better
My point: Class benchmark in premium car sector should not be set by sporty handling.
has got started. BUT the average luxury car buyer is not car enthusiast. Most people appreciate the overall package that luxury car has to offer. An I belive Lexus offers the best overall package with the IS. Automotive journalists are not average luxury car buyers (wiht very few exeptions), they don't really understand the comfort and pleasure that excellent service provides, they don't know how to value a quiet cabin and refined overall feel of the car etc. They only praise handling. I have driven both BMW 325i and IS250. BMW's powersteering is underpowered in a sense that the steering feels harder and for example in a parking lot the steering wheel is more harder to turn. Sound insulation is weak, lot of engine and roadnoise comes into the cabin - especially compared to the IS250. BMW feels lighter and acceleration is slightly better. Steering wheel is small and very thick - belongs more to a sports car than luxury car. I wouldn't classify bmw 3-series as a luxury car. It's a 4-door sports car with leather interior. It lacks lot of details that that shold be present in a luxury sedan, more important it lacks the feel of a luxury car. IS250 has the right feel and has those important details. Lowest engine option for E90 in Europe is 318i, what kind of luxury car is that? What message bmw sends out to their customers? In Europe in some markets E46 sold as much as VW Passat. Lexus is part of Toyota, so it doesn't have to sell underpowered and poorly equipped versions of it's IS. Toyota has its own cheaper priced models for that. But 3-series is BMW's cash cow, so it has to sell them as many as possible.
I think 325i is not better handling than IS250, BMW just has sportier handling. IS250 handling is sharp, refined, solid and smooth. BMW-s handling is more sports orientaited. Sports doesn't mean better
My point: Class benchmark in premium car sector should not be set by sporty handling.
Last edited by Itsuki_23; 11-22-05 at 07:52 AM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
E46CT
IS - 3rd Gen (2014-present)
39
08-12-17 04:48 PM