No Nav destination override on '07 IS
08-31-06, 08:49 PM
#46
Tech Info Resource
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I can easily see why the Garmin is a fair comparison. Look at the features, and look how it's being marketed. They're not saying this thing is so cool looking on your kitchen counter, they're marketing it for use in automobiles and on motorcycles. It has all the same features Lexus is offering, and a few more. It's just not in the car permanently and not supported by Lexus.
08-31-06, 09:58 PM
#47
Lexus Champion
I can easily see why the Garmin is a fair comparison. Look at the features, and look how it's being marketed. They're not saying this thing is so cool looking on your kitchen counter, they're marketing it for use in automobiles and on motorcycles. It has all the same features Lexus is offering, and a few more. It's just not in the car permanently and not supported by Lexus.
09-01-06, 10:47 AM
#48
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Ok, here's my spin on this. Acura has the best OEM Nav system (period). It's more intuitive & user friendly, allows Nav adjustments while in motion, and the voice recog is more efficient & less cumbersome. The latest versions has real time traffic data. Lexus is second, but not a close second. The IS has the gen V nav, but still does not allow adjustments while moving, the voice recog is cumbersome to use and the menus are not intuitive to use. Lexus cannot allow a near-luxury, value brand like Acura to have better Nav systems, their Nav systems need to be equal to or better than Acura, since we are paying a premium for this luxury brand. The override is just one issue in this whole equation . . .
09-01-06, 10:56 AM
#49
Ok, here's my spin on this. Acura has the best OEM Nav system (period). It's more intuitive & user friendly, allows Nav adjustments while in motion, and the voice recog is more efficient & less cumbersome. The latest versions has real time traffic data. Lexus is second, but not a close second. The IS has the gen V nav, but still does not allow adjustments while moving, the voice recog is cumbersome to use and the menus are not intuitive to use. Lexus cannot allow a near-luxury, value brand like Acura to have better Nav systems, their Nav systems need to be equal to or better than Acura, since we are paying a premium for this luxury brand. The override is just one issue in this whole equation . . .
09-01-06, 11:08 AM
#50
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I'm not a lawyer or anything, but wouldn't pushing the "I Agree" waive your rights if you crash due to navigation usage? It's the same as signing a waiver document. Just cause there's a space for you to sign your name doesn't mean you just sign it and not read the waiver agreement. So I don't see how enabling the nav in-motion would affect Lexus.
09-01-06, 12:08 PM
#51
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If the '07 doesn't have the Nav override - then I am really glad I went for an '06 instead of waiting for the new model year. Saved money on the purchase and got more functionality 
Now, if someone could figure a way to get video in the non-ML Nav, the car would be that much better.
Now, if someone could figure a way to get video in the non-ML Nav, the car would be that much better.
09-01-06, 12:16 PM
#52
If the '07 doesn't have the Nav override - then I am really glad I went for an '06 instead of waiting for the new model year. Saved money on the purchase and got more functionality
Now, if someone could figure a way to get video in the non-ML Nav, the car would be that much better.
Now, if someone could figure a way to get video in the non-ML Nav, the car would be that much better.
09-01-06, 12:36 PM
#53
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Off Topic - After adding in dealer fees, I ended up a little over $3.1k off. Deal was $500 over invoice + fees.
On Topic - Lexus/Toyo can choose to implement a feature as they see fit and the buyer can way it a pro or con. If Lexus feels that it is too negative a perception and might cost them sales I think they would change it. I am sure they added the VDIM switch to ensure competative mag reviews in order to drive public perception.
No magazine is going to say - great car, but the Nav implementation sucks so avoid this car. It is about perception and sales. They will make changes that help perception/sales and will most likely ignore issues that do not effect perception/sales,
On Topic - Lexus/Toyo can choose to implement a feature as they see fit and the buyer can way it a pro or con. If Lexus feels that it is too negative a perception and might cost them sales I think they would change it. I am sure they added the VDIM switch to ensure competative mag reviews in order to drive public perception.
No magazine is going to say - great car, but the Nav implementation sucks so avoid this car. It is about perception and sales. They will make changes that help perception/sales and will most likely ignore issues that do not effect perception/sales,
09-01-06, 12:46 PM
#54
09-01-06, 01:01 PM
#55
Lexus Test Driver
Well, Ken, it's America and you have the right to have you opinion, even if it's dumb.
For your info, though, the Garmin Nav's (and all other aftermarket units I've seen) also require you to go through the "I Accept" nag screen on every startup, precisely for the same legal reasons you hold so dear. So they're no different from the OEM unit in the Lexus in that regard. And some even come with a default setting that disables programming while the car is in motion. (Whether it comes "in the mail" or in the car sems irrelevant to me. Are you aware you can also buy aftermarket Nav units at stores, and not just through the mail?)
Garmins do, however, allow you to make a special "global" acceptance of the legal disclaimer that then permits you to program while in motion. In other words, they say "do it at your own risk" (my words), but at least they give you credit for having the brains and coordination to handle that daunting task.
But the really puzzling thing to me is why carmakers consider Nav programming to be such a demanding task that it renders the operation of a moving vehicle impossible (or at least wildly unsafe). IMO it is no more a distraction than a hundred things I see every day on the road ... people eating burgers and fries while driving, women putting on eye shadow, talking on cellphones, swapping out CD's, tuning satellite radios (all those categories and channels - sheesh!), reading newspapers or books (yep!) or even maps, arguing with passengers, looking at scenery, etc., etc.
I've seen absolutely NO statistics that suggest programming Nav units while driving has contributed to carnage on public highways and byways. I think - and this is my own heartfelt personal opinion - that the lawyers are being incredibly overly cautious, and as a result are crippling a useful tool.
As for your other question about the need to use it while in motion, my answer is that we travel a lot, and I do a LOT of in-motion programming. Not just for city destinations, but also for nearby restaurants, tourist attractions, historical POI's, gas stations, motels, you name it. I consider a requirement to pull off on the shoulder of a busy interstate highway and stop much more dangerous than programming-in-motion. And my last car had a crippled Nav ... it sucked BIG time, and I found it to be a major negative issue. So much so that it is now a big consideration in my choice of cars.
If you really consider it the safety issue you suggest it is, I really recommend you don't ever try it. For the rest of us it's okay, but I'd rather you not do it, since you must be uncomfortable with your ability to handle it.
Lastly - yes, I got your point about numbers and risk. I was in the insurance (risk) business for 35 years, and I understand concepts like the Law of Large Numbers, risk avoidance, assumption of risk, and also many of the legal aspects associated with them. I also learned that lawyers are also sometimes stupid as all Hell.
.
.
For your info, though, the Garmin Nav's (and all other aftermarket units I've seen) also require you to go through the "I Accept" nag screen on every startup, precisely for the same legal reasons you hold so dear. So they're no different from the OEM unit in the Lexus in that regard. And some even come with a default setting that disables programming while the car is in motion. (Whether it comes "in the mail" or in the car sems irrelevant to me. Are you aware you can also buy aftermarket Nav units at stores, and not just through the mail?)
Garmins do, however, allow you to make a special "global" acceptance of the legal disclaimer that then permits you to program while in motion. In other words, they say "do it at your own risk" (my words), but at least they give you credit for having the brains and coordination to handle that daunting task.
But the really puzzling thing to me is why carmakers consider Nav programming to be such a demanding task that it renders the operation of a moving vehicle impossible (or at least wildly unsafe). IMO it is no more a distraction than a hundred things I see every day on the road ... people eating burgers and fries while driving, women putting on eye shadow, talking on cellphones, swapping out CD's, tuning satellite radios (all those categories and channels - sheesh!), reading newspapers or books (yep!) or even maps, arguing with passengers, looking at scenery, etc., etc.
I've seen absolutely NO statistics that suggest programming Nav units while driving has contributed to carnage on public highways and byways. I think - and this is my own heartfelt personal opinion - that the lawyers are being incredibly overly cautious, and as a result are crippling a useful tool.
As for your other question about the need to use it while in motion, my answer is that we travel a lot, and I do a LOT of in-motion programming. Not just for city destinations, but also for nearby restaurants, tourist attractions, historical POI's, gas stations, motels, you name it. I consider a requirement to pull off on the shoulder of a busy interstate highway and stop much more dangerous than programming-in-motion. And my last car had a crippled Nav ... it sucked BIG time, and I found it to be a major negative issue. So much so that it is now a big consideration in my choice of cars.
If you really consider it the safety issue you suggest it is, I really recommend you don't ever try it. For the rest of us it's okay, but I'd rather you not do it, since you must be uncomfortable with your ability to handle it.
Lastly - yes, I got your point about numbers and risk. I was in the insurance (risk) business for 35 years, and I understand concepts like the Law of Large Numbers, risk avoidance, assumption of risk, and also many of the legal aspects associated with them. I also learned that lawyers are also sometimes stupid as all Hell.
.
.
Last edited by Mike_TX; 09-01-06 at 01:04 PM.
09-01-06, 01:04 PM
#56
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Not to start a pissing contest (especially when there is a seperate thread on discounts), but it is apples and oranges. You got a good deal, but the dealer made over $2.7k on your car based upon the options you listed (taking into account $3.1k off MSRP). If that does not include dealer fees - bump it up a little more. The dealer made just over $1k including dealer fees based upon my car.
Total difference in deals is about $1.7k.
It is not about discount, but how much over Invoice in order to really compare deals on different equiped cars.
Like I said, I think you got a good deal, but there is always more off on an outgoing year than incoming. With the Nav override on the '06; I don't think there would be a compelling reason to choose an '07 for me.
PS - Enjoy your new ride - they are great
it is apples and oranges. You got a good deal, but the dealer made over $2.7k on your car based upon the options you listed (taking into account $3.1k off MSRP). If that does not include dealer fees - bump it up a little more. The dealer made just over $1k including dealer fees based upon my car. Total difference in deals is about $1.7k.
It is not about discount, but how much over Invoice in order to really compare deals on different equiped cars.
Like I said, I think you got a good deal, but there is always more off on an outgoing year than incoming. With the Nav override on the '06; I don't think there would be a compelling reason to choose an '07 for me.
PS - Enjoy your new ride - they are great
09-01-06, 01:14 PM
#57
Agreed, except for the nav override comment. The only TRUE nav override is installing a switch, for both the 06 and 07. IMHO, having to go through a series of commands, then hold down another command for 5 seconds, EVERY time you power on the car is unacceptable.
If anyone in the DC area wants me to mod their 06 or 07 navi with a nice crisp looking switch to disable the in-motion cripple function, I'll be happy to do so. You will then be able to enter destinations with the flip of a switch, not a series of commands taking 10-15 seconds each time you start your car. Don't settle for a software hack.
And for the record, I think it's silly to want a car that's 1 year older just to have a software bypass on a nav. Since if you want the older version of the NAV software that bad, you can just get the older DVD from 2006 (V5 I think) and plop it in the 2007 IS model!! Ever think of that?
If anyone in the DC area wants me to mod their 06 or 07 navi with a nice crisp looking switch to disable the in-motion cripple function, I'll be happy to do so. You will then be able to enter destinations with the flip of a switch, not a series of commands taking 10-15 seconds each time you start your car. Don't settle for a software hack.
And for the record, I think it's silly to want a car that's 1 year older just to have a software bypass on a nav. Since if you want the older version of the NAV software that bad, you can just get the older DVD from 2006 (V5 I think) and plop it in the 2007 IS model!! Ever think of that?
Not to start a pissing contest (especially when there is a seperate thread on discounts), but it is apples and oranges. You got a good deal, but the dealer made over $2.7k on your car based upon the options you listed (taking into account $3.1k off MSRP). If that does not include dealer fees - bump it up a little more. The dealer made just over $1k including dealer fees based upon my car.
Total difference in deals is about $1.7k.
It is not about discount, but how much over Invoice in order to really compare deals on different equiped cars.
Like I said, I think you got a good deal, but there is always more off on an outgoing year than incoming. With the Nav override on the '06; I don't think there would be a compelling reason to choose an '07 for me.
PS - Enjoy your new ride - they are great
it is apples and oranges. You got a good deal, but the dealer made over $2.7k on your car based upon the options you listed (taking into account $3.1k off MSRP). If that does not include dealer fees - bump it up a little more. The dealer made just over $1k including dealer fees based upon my car. Total difference in deals is about $1.7k.
It is not about discount, but how much over Invoice in order to really compare deals on different equiped cars.
Like I said, I think you got a good deal, but there is always more off on an outgoing year than incoming. With the Nav override on the '06; I don't think there would be a compelling reason to choose an '07 for me.
PS - Enjoy your new ride - they are great
09-01-06, 01:22 PM
#58
Liquid Bra Champion
And for the record, I think it's silly to want a car that's 1 year older just to have a software bypass on a nav. Since if you want the older version of the NAV software that bad, you can just get the older DVD from 2006 (V5 I think) and plop it in the 2007 IS model!! Ever think of that?
09-01-06, 01:25 PM
#59
But that means that if anyone with an '06 ever wants to buy a newer version of the nav DVD a few years from now to get more current maps they will lose the software hack? Sucks... I really hate crippleware...
09-01-06, 02:12 PM
#60
Lexus Champion
Well, Ken, it's America and you have the right to have you opinion, even if it's dumb.
For your info, though, the Garmin Nav's (and all other aftermarket units I've seen) also require you to go through the "I Accept" nag screen on every startup, precisely for the same legal reasons you hold so dear. So they're no different from the OEM unit in the Lexus in that regard. And some even come with a default setting that disables programming while the car is in motion. (Whether it comes "in the mail" or in the car sems irrelevant to me. Are you aware you can also buy aftermarket Nav units at stores, and not just through the mail?)
Garmins do, however, allow you to make a special "global" acceptance of the legal disclaimer that then permits you to program while in motion. In other words, they say "do it at your own risk" (my words), but at least they give you credit for having the brains and coordination to handle that daunting task.
But the really puzzling thing to me is why carmakers consider Nav programming to be such a demanding task that it renders the operation of a moving vehicle impossible (or at least wildly unsafe). IMO it is no more a distraction than a hundred things I see every day on the road ... people eating burgers and fries while driving, women putting on eye shadow, talking on cellphones, swapping out CD's, tuning satellite radios (all those categories and channels - sheesh!), reading newspapers or books (yep!) or even maps, arguing with passengers, looking at scenery, etc., etc.
I've seen absolutely NO statistics that suggest programming Nav units while driving has contributed to carnage on public highways and byways. I think - and this is my own heartfelt personal opinion - that the lawyers are being incredibly overly cautious, and as a result are crippling a useful tool.
As for your other question about the need to use it while in motion, my answer is that we travel a lot, and I do a LOT of in-motion programming. Not just for city destinations, but also for nearby restaurants, tourist attractions, historical POI's, gas stations, motels, you name it. I consider a requirement to pull off on the shoulder of a busy interstate highway and stop much more dangerous than programming-in-motion. And my last car had a crippled Nav ... it sucked BIG time, and I found it to be a major negative issue. So much so that it is now a big consideration in my choice of cars.
If you really consider it the safety issue you suggest it is, I really recommend you don't ever try it. For the rest of us it's okay, but I'd rather you not do it, since you must be uncomfortable with your ability to handle it.
Lastly - yes, I got your point about numbers and risk. I was in the insurance (risk) business for 35 years, and I understand concepts like the Law of Large Numbers, risk avoidance, assumption of risk, and also many of the legal aspects associated with them. I also learned that lawyers are also sometimes stupid as all Hell.
.
.
For your info, though, the Garmin Nav's (and all other aftermarket units I've seen) also require you to go through the "I Accept" nag screen on every startup, precisely for the same legal reasons you hold so dear. So they're no different from the OEM unit in the Lexus in that regard. And some even come with a default setting that disables programming while the car is in motion. (Whether it comes "in the mail" or in the car sems irrelevant to me. Are you aware you can also buy aftermarket Nav units at stores, and not just through the mail?)
Garmins do, however, allow you to make a special "global" acceptance of the legal disclaimer that then permits you to program while in motion. In other words, they say "do it at your own risk" (my words), but at least they give you credit for having the brains and coordination to handle that daunting task.
But the really puzzling thing to me is why carmakers consider Nav programming to be such a demanding task that it renders the operation of a moving vehicle impossible (or at least wildly unsafe). IMO it is no more a distraction than a hundred things I see every day on the road ... people eating burgers and fries while driving, women putting on eye shadow, talking on cellphones, swapping out CD's, tuning satellite radios (all those categories and channels - sheesh!), reading newspapers or books (yep!) or even maps, arguing with passengers, looking at scenery, etc., etc.
I've seen absolutely NO statistics that suggest programming Nav units while driving has contributed to carnage on public highways and byways. I think - and this is my own heartfelt personal opinion - that the lawyers are being incredibly overly cautious, and as a result are crippling a useful tool.
As for your other question about the need to use it while in motion, my answer is that we travel a lot, and I do a LOT of in-motion programming. Not just for city destinations, but also for nearby restaurants, tourist attractions, historical POI's, gas stations, motels, you name it. I consider a requirement to pull off on the shoulder of a busy interstate highway and stop much more dangerous than programming-in-motion. And my last car had a crippled Nav ... it sucked BIG time, and I found it to be a major negative issue. So much so that it is now a big consideration in my choice of cars.
If you really consider it the safety issue you suggest it is, I really recommend you don't ever try it. For the rest of us it's okay, but I'd rather you not do it, since you must be uncomfortable with your ability to handle it.
Lastly - yes, I got your point about numbers and risk. I was in the insurance (risk) business for 35 years, and I understand concepts like the Law of Large Numbers, risk avoidance, assumption of risk, and also many of the legal aspects associated with them. I also learned that lawyers are also sometimes stupid as all Hell.
.
.