No Nav destination override on '07 IS
09-06-06, 08:45 AM
#106
Lead Lap
Oh, BTW, I'm 61 years old. (But I'm a YOUNG 61. )
__________________
I'm 67 years young and have no problem multi-tasking when I know the product. I admit I'm NOT comfortable with the nav system yet and it is distracting to mess with it while driving. As to the other functions I use the steering wheel buttons to change stations and CDs. I don't smoke, yada,yada,yada. I'm the guy you see in your mirror if your driving to vegas under 80 mph...., and....both my hands or on the wheel..
As someone already said: The question is moot since a 'fix' is out there for those who insist on going against 'common sense'. My final thought is this: If you hit me and I find your on the nav system or cell phone I will 'hang your asre' in court.
__________________
I'm 67 years young and have no problem multi-tasking when I know the product. I admit I'm NOT comfortable with the nav system yet and it is distracting to mess with it while driving. As to the other functions I use the steering wheel buttons to change stations and CDs. I don't smoke, yada,yada,yada. I'm the guy you see in your mirror if your driving to vegas under 80 mph...., and....both my hands or on the wheel..
As someone already said: The question is moot since a 'fix' is out there for those who insist on going against 'common sense'. My final thought is this: If you hit me and I find your on the nav system or cell phone I will 'hang your asre' in court.
09-06-06, 09:15 AM
#107
When considering the fact that you CAN change or add destinations while driving through the voice activation system, I suspect there are other motives for those who want the restrictions on manual settings eliminated. Macho? Anti-social? Hacker-inclined? I don’t know.
Furthermore, the argument that there are similar dangers that are legal while driving like cell phones, radios, or putting on makeup is specious. Pointing out one bad behavior to justify another often sounds good but is illogical.
But I do know that such proponents are a bit naive on the insurance issue. Accidents cause premiums to go up for everybody, certainly for those insured by the same company. And in a related topic, if Lexus were to be successfully sued for not having these navigation restrictions the price of all future Lexus automobiles would increase accordingly. The financial people at Toyota have no intention of absorbing such losses. So don’t tell me it’s not anybody’s business but the individual owner’s. We’re sort of all in this together.
Furthermore, the argument that there are similar dangers that are legal while driving like cell phones, radios, or putting on makeup is specious. Pointing out one bad behavior to justify another often sounds good but is illogical.
But I do know that such proponents are a bit naive on the insurance issue. Accidents cause premiums to go up for everybody, certainly for those insured by the same company. And in a related topic, if Lexus were to be successfully sued for not having these navigation restrictions the price of all future Lexus automobiles would increase accordingly. The financial people at Toyota have no intention of absorbing such losses. So don’t tell me it’s not anybody’s business but the individual owner’s. We’re sort of all in this together.
09-06-06, 09:20 AM
#108
Since its on the table...
Some information on electronic vehicle distractions presented by the NHTSA.
In a study published in July 2000, we also looked at driver performance when destinations are entered into route navigation systems while vehicles are in motion. For this study, we evaluated four commercially available route navigation systems: three used visual-manual methods for entry, and one used voice commands to control entry. On our test track, we evaluated the distraction effects of destination entry using each of the four systems, as well as for cell-phone dialing and radio tuning. We also compared the performance of these tasks by younger subjects (35 years old and under) to that of older subjects (55 years old and over).
We found that all tasks were distracting to the driver. Generally, the use of the voice-activated system was less distracting than any of the visual-manual systems. Radio tuning and cell-phone dialing were less distracting than visual-manual destination entry, but not much different from voice-activated destination entry. Older drivers also had much more difficulty using the visual-manual entry systems than did the younger drivers. However, for the voice-activated system, the older drivers did as well as the younger drivers.
[...]
Three points in particular were stressed by those who spoke at the public meeting:
* First, the in-vehicle electronic devices currently installed in motor vehicles are not being fully evaluated by the industry for their potential to cause driver distraction.
* Second, much additional research needs to be done to understand more about how in-vehicle technologies can degrade a driver's ability to drive safely, increase a driver's physical and mental workload, impose added management demands on a driver, and affect different groups of drivers, particularly different age groups.
* Third, data are lacking to define the extent and magnitude of driver distraction-related crashes associated with in-vehicle electronic devices, a problem that should be addressed on an urgent basis.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/annou...testimony.html
Some information on electronic vehicle distractions presented by the NHTSA.
In a study published in July 2000, we also looked at driver performance when destinations are entered into route navigation systems while vehicles are in motion. For this study, we evaluated four commercially available route navigation systems: three used visual-manual methods for entry, and one used voice commands to control entry. On our test track, we evaluated the distraction effects of destination entry using each of the four systems, as well as for cell-phone dialing and radio tuning. We also compared the performance of these tasks by younger subjects (35 years old and under) to that of older subjects (55 years old and over).
We found that all tasks were distracting to the driver. Generally, the use of the voice-activated system was less distracting than any of the visual-manual systems. Radio tuning and cell-phone dialing were less distracting than visual-manual destination entry, but not much different from voice-activated destination entry. Older drivers also had much more difficulty using the visual-manual entry systems than did the younger drivers. However, for the voice-activated system, the older drivers did as well as the younger drivers.
[...]
Three points in particular were stressed by those who spoke at the public meeting:
* First, the in-vehicle electronic devices currently installed in motor vehicles are not being fully evaluated by the industry for their potential to cause driver distraction.
* Second, much additional research needs to be done to understand more about how in-vehicle technologies can degrade a driver's ability to drive safely, increase a driver's physical and mental workload, impose added management demands on a driver, and affect different groups of drivers, particularly different age groups.
* Third, data are lacking to define the extent and magnitude of driver distraction-related crashes associated with in-vehicle electronic devices, a problem that should be addressed on an urgent basis.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/annou...testimony.html
09-06-06, 11:11 AM
#109
Lexus Champion
So Lexus as a Company has insurance. What does their insurance carrier require them to do with regard to the Navigation system? Someone please provide the documentation on that.
Otherwise it's a moot point. Because you as an individual are not party to the decision. Only Lexus and the insurance company. Unfortunately they have to adbide by the insurance first and then the customer second.
I think they tried to do their best they could to provide a functional, safe, and competitive navigation system in the format that they have delivered. As Nav system becomes more advanced, I think our options will expand.
Otherwise it's a moot point. Because you as an individual are not party to the decision. Only Lexus and the insurance company. Unfortunately they have to adbide by the insurance first and then the customer second.
I think they tried to do their best they could to provide a functional, safe, and competitive navigation system in the format that they have delivered. As Nav system becomes more advanced, I think our options will expand.
09-06-06, 11:33 AM
#110
Lexus Champion
So is checking my email on my Treo (or Blackberry). So is putting on makeup, reading the newspaper, adjusting the volume, lighting a cigarette (but I don't smoke), yelling at the kids in the back seat, or better, turning around to threaten to beat them, but people do this stuff everyday too. Just learning to drive a manual puts you at risk because your attention is divided unless you're familiar with the task. Shouldn't there be technical controls to limit or restrict these other far more dangerous tasks?
LET ME DECIDE. I'm the one managing the risk of driving the car. Not Lexus. MY insurance is covering MY driving. Not Lexus's.
The point is, it should not be locked out. If anyone should be worried about this, it should be Hertz with their Everlost, but I'll be damned if I can't change my destination by just acknowledging what I am doing isn't recommended or condoned by Everlost. In a car I just rented and in an UNfamiliar driving environment.
Using this same logic, I should not be able to change CDs while driving because that task certainly is a distraction. There's no lockout for loading discs, and that takes pressing a button and waiting for a light to go green. Why? It's inconsistent. Make it ALL annoying or none of it annoying. Be consistent with the rest of the manufacturers. Or face the fact I will not buy your product again.
BTW, you have an iPod and a V1 listed in your sig. They're not dangerous to operate while driving? My V1 is out of reach and any adjustment requires I alter my driving position. How do you control your iPod? Don't you have to take your eyes off the road and completely change your mental focus to change to the song you want? Is my point starting to make sense?
LET ME DECIDE. I'm the one managing the risk of driving the car. Not Lexus. MY insurance is covering MY driving. Not Lexus's.
The point is, it should not be locked out. If anyone should be worried about this, it should be Hertz with their Everlost, but I'll be damned if I can't change my destination by just acknowledging what I am doing isn't recommended or condoned by Everlost. In a car I just rented and in an UNfamiliar driving environment.
Using this same logic, I should not be able to change CDs while driving because that task certainly is a distraction. There's no lockout for loading discs, and that takes pressing a button and waiting for a light to go green. Why? It's inconsistent. Make it ALL annoying or none of it annoying. Be consistent with the rest of the manufacturers. Or face the fact I will not buy your product again.
BTW, you have an iPod and a V1 listed in your sig. They're not dangerous to operate while driving? My V1 is out of reach and any adjustment requires I alter my driving position. How do you control your iPod? Don't you have to take your eyes off the road and completely change your mental focus to change to the song you want? Is my point starting to make sense?
I can't answer the other questions you ask because we're not talking about what is dangerous operation and what isn't. I know it might be dangerous. But we are talking about who is taking on the risk and where is the liability placed in the event the operation of those devices lead to some sort of accident. Ask me those questions about my iPod and V1 and their respective manufacturers and I can answer you when you ask about risk and liability.
Even if you signed a statement saying "Lexus please enable my moving while adjusting nav feature and I promise to not hold you liable if my kill my whole family while using it" Lexus wouldn't do it because if they gave you the code and you killed my family, I would sue Lexus for giving you codes.
09-06-06, 11:39 AM
#111
Lexus Champion
OTOH, if the 07 has this feature remove, it could be for a number of reasons. It was inadvertantly left available in the 06, or maybe Lexus still feels that they are exposed when they learned that dealership were showing customers how to override (just an example). Or maybe the override was too easy to discover and thus Lexus didn't do enough.... Who has the facts because we are all just guessing here.
09-06-06, 11:45 AM
#112
Lexus Champion
I think you might be right. They have yet to acknowledge that functionality has been limited, not eliminated. They are not happy unless they have complete freedom on a level equal to or exceeding the competition. It's not even about functionality to them as much as it is about [in]convenience. Frankly I would like to have the complete functionality myself...because I think I can handle it. If there was a way to just get it for me and nobody else, that would work best for me. But I'm not going to get mad at Lexus just because Lexus decided to give it to no one.
09-06-06, 11:55 AM
#113
Lexus Test Driver
09-06-06, 12:14 PM
#115
Lexus Test Driver
Furthermore, the argument that there are similar dangers that are legal while driving like cell phones, radios, or putting on makeup is specious. Pointing out one bad behavior to justify another often sounds good but is illogical.
But I do know that such proponents are a bit naive on the insurance issue. Accidents cause premiums to go up for everybody, certainly for those insured by the same company. And in a related topic, if Lexus were to be successfully sued for not having these navigation restrictions the price of all future Lexus automobiles would increase accordingly. The financial people at Toyota have no intention of absorbing such losses. So don’t tell me it’s not anybody’s business but the individual owner’s. We’re sort of all in this together.
I'm tempted to quote the steps involved in making a decison when approaching an intersection where the light has just turned yellow. It would take a whole page, but it illustrates just how complex are the decisions we make every minute we drive, and it makes adding info to a Nav system look like the tame activity it is!
09-06-06, 12:32 PM
#116
Lexus Test Driver
Since its on the table...
Some information on electronic vehicle distractions presented by the NHTSA.
In a study published in July 2000, we also looked at driver performance when destinations are entered into route navigation systems while vehicles are in motion. For this study, we evaluated four commercially available route navigation systems: three used visual-manual methods for entry, and one used voice commands to control entry. On our test track, we evaluated the distraction effects of destination entry using each of the four systems, as well as for cell-phone dialing and radio tuning. We also compared the performance of these tasks by younger subjects (35 years old and under) to that of older subjects (55 years old and over).
We found that all tasks were distracting to the driver. Generally, the use of the voice-activated system was less distracting than any of the visual-manual systems. Radio tuning and cell-phone dialing were less distracting than visual-manual destination entry, but not much different from voice-activated destination entry. Older drivers also had much more difficulty using the visual-manual entry systems than did the younger drivers. However, for the voice-activated system, the older drivers did as well as the younger drivers.
[...]
Three points in particular were stressed by those who spoke at the public meeting:
* First, the in-vehicle electronic devices currently installed in motor vehicles are not being fully evaluated by the industry for their potential to cause driver distraction.
* Second, much additional research needs to be done to understand more about how in-vehicle technologies can degrade a driver's ability to drive safely, increase a driver's physical and mental workload, impose added management demands on a driver, and affect different groups of drivers, particularly different age groups.
* Third, data are lacking to define the extent and magnitude of driver distraction-related crashes associated with in-vehicle electronic devices, a problem that should be addressed on an urgent basis.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/annou...testimony.html
Some information on electronic vehicle distractions presented by the NHTSA.
In a study published in July 2000, we also looked at driver performance when destinations are entered into route navigation systems while vehicles are in motion. For this study, we evaluated four commercially available route navigation systems: three used visual-manual methods for entry, and one used voice commands to control entry. On our test track, we evaluated the distraction effects of destination entry using each of the four systems, as well as for cell-phone dialing and radio tuning. We also compared the performance of these tasks by younger subjects (35 years old and under) to that of older subjects (55 years old and over).
We found that all tasks were distracting to the driver. Generally, the use of the voice-activated system was less distracting than any of the visual-manual systems. Radio tuning and cell-phone dialing were less distracting than visual-manual destination entry, but not much different from voice-activated destination entry. Older drivers also had much more difficulty using the visual-manual entry systems than did the younger drivers. However, for the voice-activated system, the older drivers did as well as the younger drivers.
[...]
Three points in particular were stressed by those who spoke at the public meeting:
* First, the in-vehicle electronic devices currently installed in motor vehicles are not being fully evaluated by the industry for their potential to cause driver distraction.
* Second, much additional research needs to be done to understand more about how in-vehicle technologies can degrade a driver's ability to drive safely, increase a driver's physical and mental workload, impose added management demands on a driver, and affect different groups of drivers, particularly different age groups.
* Third, data are lacking to define the extent and magnitude of driver distraction-related crashes associated with in-vehicle electronic devices, a problem that should be addressed on an urgent basis.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/annou...testimony.html
Oh, Shinobi.
All I can say is remember this is the same NHTSA that wants speed limts rolled back to 55mph and more red-light cameras, and also the same one that gave us CAFE standards and data event recorders in our cars. What's next, helmets and fire-retardant suits?
NHTSA is a political entity and they have their agenda like all government agencies. And their "studies" have been shown in many cases to be as rigged as political polls. I personally rate them right down there with IIHS, but you're of course free to believe what you want.
.
.
09-06-06, 12:34 PM
#117
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Wow. This is turning into a nice debate 
How about everyone throws in couple thousand dollars so I can crash my car while playing with the nav. Then I can sue Lexus and see what happens from there =P
My position on this topic is like this: Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
If you can't handle a navigation system while driving (and talking and smoking and eating and dancing and checking up stocks on your laptop), then it's your fault. The over-ride menu is supposed to be hidden and not for the general public. I would find it very hard for the jury/judge to see it as Lexus's fault.
But if Lexus doesn't even offer the over-ride menu anymore, and you absolutely need to change routes while driving, then the Lexus isn't the car for you. Go look at an Acura instead. It's like the many pros and cons of each brand (Manual vs Automatic, Performance vs Luxury...and I guess now Changing directions while driving vs Not changing directions while driving)
How about everyone throws in couple thousand dollars so I can crash my car while playing with the nav. Then I can sue Lexus and see what happens from there =PMy position on this topic is like this: Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
If you can't handle a navigation system while driving (and talking and smoking and eating and dancing and checking up stocks on your laptop), then it's your fault. The over-ride menu is supposed to be hidden and not for the general public. I would find it very hard for the jury/judge to see it as Lexus's fault.
But if Lexus doesn't even offer the over-ride menu anymore, and you absolutely need to change routes while driving, then the Lexus isn't the car for you. Go look at an Acura instead. It's like the many pros and cons of each brand (Manual vs Automatic, Performance vs Luxury...and I guess now Changing directions while driving vs Not changing directions while driving)
09-06-06, 12:45 PM
#118
But if Lexus doesn't even offer the over-ride menu anymore, and you absolutely need to change routes while driving, then the Lexus isn't the car for you. Go look at an Acura instead. It's like the many pros and cons of each brand (Manual vs Automatic, Performance vs Luxury...and I guess now Changing directions while driving vs Not changing directions while driving)
09-06-06, 02:29 PM
#119
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Well then, what if Lexus did away with the Nav/wire Hack ? (although I highly doubt it). But then again...I'm sure Lexus is well aware of a nav hack and they're very well capable of reprogramming their navigation system (ie combination of gps, speedometer, etc). No one's tried to do the Nav Hack on an 07 yet from what I've known
(although I highly doubt it). But then again...I'm sure Lexus is well aware of a nav hack and they're very well capable of reprogramming their navigation system (ie combination of gps, speedometer, etc). No one's tried to do the Nav Hack on an 07 yet from what I've known
09-06-06, 02:58 PM
#120
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Uh, I thought the Nav hack allowed those with ML to view DVDs while in motion - don't recall allowing adjustments to Nav controls. The Nav Override was the only 'hack' I was aware of that allows adjustments to Nav controls while in motion. Please correct me if I'm mistaken here . . .