Engine cranking/startup noise (merged threads)
06-08-11, 09:51 AM
#797
My CPO 2007 IS350 with 60k miles is in the shop as we speak for the cam gear TSIB. My car was exhibiting the grinding start-up noise infrequently and inconsistently, so I knew there'd be a very small chance the dealer could successfully replicate the issue and verify it so I recorded it one day it happened. When I took the car in, I told the service rep about the symptoms and said I had a recording if they couldn't replicate it - he had me send him the audio file and he got the repair approved by his service manager based on the recording. So if you're worried about the dealer not being able to replicate the issue, record the sound (or record the audio of the YouTube video linked above for example) and bring it to the dealer with you.
Did have a great story about this repair though. I'll preface by saying the cam gear TSIB was covered under the powertrain warranty, so no cost to me. My car's at 60k miles so I needed spark plugs, so I called around to all my area dealers to get price quotes for parts and labor. The best price on parts I got was $150 for 6 plugs; on Sewell, these 6 plugs are half that at $77. So I naturally bought the 6 plugs from Sewell, knowing that whether I had a dealer do it or I did it, I wasn't paying $150 for them. The labor rates they quoted ranged from about $400-500. It was understandable, given that dealer rates are $100-120/hour and this was a 3-5 hour job, but there was no way I was paying that.
When the cam gear issue started, I reasoned that the dealer would charge me lower labor because there was overlap in the work needed - to perform the cam gear TSIB, I knew you had to remove a bunch of the same stuff as needed to replace the plugs. So I took my car to a dealer that had quoted me originally about $400 for labor for spark plug replacement. The service rep calls me later that day and said they checked it over and agreed to do the cam gear TSIB, but that I also needed spark plugs since I was at 60k miles (which I knew). I asked how much, and he said $230 for labor, $150 for parts. Already lower than the previously-quoted $400.
He explained that you had to take out the air box and hose, etc to get to the spark plugs and it was a long and complicated process. I asked him "Well, if there's overlap between the cam gear TSIB and the spark plug replacement, shouldn't labor be lower?" He said there might be overlap, but not much since the cam gear TSIB is focused on the front of the engine, blah blah. I told him I'd think about it.
I went home, pulled up the PDF of the cam gear TSIB (which I'd downloaded from TIS) and saw that the cam gear TSIB requires removal of the air inlet, air box, ventilation hose, and wiring harnesses - basically everything that needs to be removed for the spark plug replacement. In addition, it actually calls for removal of the IGNITION COIL ASSEMBLIES, meaning that as part of the cam gear TSIB, you have to get to the point where you're essentially staring at the spark plugs themselves. This means that the only incremental labor involved in replacing the spark plugs when you're performing the cam gear TSIB is unscrewing old plugs, screwing in new plugs.
I called the service rep the next day and said "You know, I think there's significant overlap between the cam gear TSIB and the spark plug replacement, so I'm not sure why I'd be charged two hours' labor for the replacement when you're doing all the pre-work as part of the warranty-covered TSIB." He reiterated the point he made before, that he checked with the technician and they're different parts of the engine, etc, and that for the spark plug replacement you have to remove the air intake assembly, etc. I then told him I was reading the actual TSIB that I downloaded from TIS, and I read him the steps that state you must remove the air box, inlet, hose, wiring harnesses, and ignition coil assemblies themselves, meaning the spark plugs are essentially exposed and all you need to do is unscrew old and screw in new. He paused, and said he'd check with the technician.
Called me back 10 minutes later and said they'd do the replacement for a half hour's labor of $57, plus parts. I happily told him to check the glove compartment, where I'd conveniently left the 6 spark plugs I bought from Sewell. He paused again, and started to ask if they were genuine Toyota parts, at which point I cut him off and said "Denso, iridium, pre-gapped."
He said he'd call me when it was done.
Now before you say I should have done it myself, etc, I can tell you that because it would have been my first time doing it, the replacement would have taken me 4-5 hours, and I can tell you that I value an hour of my time at more than $11.50, plus I get the benefits of having the replacement work warrantied.
Anyway, just wanted to share. Unfortunately, another example of a dealership trying to screw over a customer they assumed was uninformed and a pushover. Luckily, this time it turned out well.
Did have a great story about this repair though. I'll preface by saying the cam gear TSIB was covered under the powertrain warranty, so no cost to me. My car's at 60k miles so I needed spark plugs, so I called around to all my area dealers to get price quotes for parts and labor. The best price on parts I got was $150 for 6 plugs; on Sewell, these 6 plugs are half that at $77. So I naturally bought the 6 plugs from Sewell, knowing that whether I had a dealer do it or I did it, I wasn't paying $150 for them. The labor rates they quoted ranged from about $400-500. It was understandable, given that dealer rates are $100-120/hour and this was a 3-5 hour job, but there was no way I was paying that.
When the cam gear issue started, I reasoned that the dealer would charge me lower labor because there was overlap in the work needed - to perform the cam gear TSIB, I knew you had to remove a bunch of the same stuff as needed to replace the plugs. So I took my car to a dealer that had quoted me originally about $400 for labor for spark plug replacement. The service rep calls me later that day and said they checked it over and agreed to do the cam gear TSIB, but that I also needed spark plugs since I was at 60k miles (which I knew). I asked how much, and he said $230 for labor, $150 for parts. Already lower than the previously-quoted $400.
He explained that you had to take out the air box and hose, etc to get to the spark plugs and it was a long and complicated process. I asked him "Well, if there's overlap between the cam gear TSIB and the spark plug replacement, shouldn't labor be lower?" He said there might be overlap, but not much since the cam gear TSIB is focused on the front of the engine, blah blah. I told him I'd think about it.
I went home, pulled up the PDF of the cam gear TSIB (which I'd downloaded from TIS) and saw that the cam gear TSIB requires removal of the air inlet, air box, ventilation hose, and wiring harnesses - basically everything that needs to be removed for the spark plug replacement. In addition, it actually calls for removal of the IGNITION COIL ASSEMBLIES, meaning that as part of the cam gear TSIB, you have to get to the point where you're essentially staring at the spark plugs themselves. This means that the only incremental labor involved in replacing the spark plugs when you're performing the cam gear TSIB is unscrewing old plugs, screwing in new plugs.
I called the service rep the next day and said "You know, I think there's significant overlap between the cam gear TSIB and the spark plug replacement, so I'm not sure why I'd be charged two hours' labor for the replacement when you're doing all the pre-work as part of the warranty-covered TSIB." He reiterated the point he made before, that he checked with the technician and they're different parts of the engine, etc, and that for the spark plug replacement you have to remove the air intake assembly, etc. I then told him I was reading the actual TSIB that I downloaded from TIS, and I read him the steps that state you must remove the air box, inlet, hose, wiring harnesses, and ignition coil assemblies themselves, meaning the spark plugs are essentially exposed and all you need to do is unscrew old and screw in new. He paused, and said he'd check with the technician.
Called me back 10 minutes later and said they'd do the replacement for a half hour's labor of $57, plus parts. I happily told him to check the glove compartment, where I'd conveniently left the 6 spark plugs I bought from Sewell. He paused again, and started to ask if they were genuine Toyota parts, at which point I cut him off and said "Denso, iridium, pre-gapped."
He said he'd call me when it was done.
Now before you say I should have done it myself, etc, I can tell you that because it would have been my first time doing it, the replacement would have taken me 4-5 hours, and I can tell you that I value an hour of my time at more than $11.50, plus I get the benefits of having the replacement work warrantied.
Anyway, just wanted to share. Unfortunately, another example of a dealership trying to screw over a customer they assumed was uninformed and a pushover. Luckily, this time it turned out well.
06-19-11, 12:16 PM
#803
Haven't read all 54 pages but got about halfway through
just to be clear, this noise isn't bad for the engine but should be fixed? I am still under the powertrain warranty and have heard it a couple times on startup.
Didn't one CL member (micel?) have problems after they did the cam actuator tsb on his car without them telling him?
just to be clear, this noise isn't bad for the engine but should be fixed? I am still under the powertrain warranty and have heard it a couple times on startup.
Didn't one CL member (micel?) have problems after they did the cam actuator tsb on his car without them telling him?
06-19-11, 08:57 PM
#804
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yeah I am still under warranty but my service advisor said even if I run out of warranty there still a 1 year warranty on the part so they will still fix it if it make noise again
07-04-11, 05:57 AM
#805
Thanks, but I already cut and pasted your details for reference .... the car goes in next Tuesday for new scuff plates, a loose fog and this noise.
The car was doing this much more often and louder up until a week ago when i topped it up with oil ..... it was down 1/4 quart??? .... not sure exactly.
Since the VVT-i camp gear appears to be relying on the oil flow for it to work i guess that shouldn't surprise. Its done it twice in the last ~30 starts since last week.
.......... Sound Link ..... for those of you not sure of the sound it can be heard from the 5 second mark to about the 6 second mark!!
KC
The car was doing this much more often and louder up until a week ago when i topped it up with oil ..... it was down 1/4 quart??? .... not sure exactly.
Since the VVT-i camp gear appears to be relying on the oil flow for it to work i guess that shouldn't surprise. Its done it twice in the last ~30 starts since last week.
.......... Sound Link ..... for those of you not sure of the sound it can be heard from the 5 second mark to about the 6 second mark!!
KC
my car goes in the shop Tuesday for this infamous sound
08-26-11, 02:11 PM
#806
Well, it was my day I guess. I heard the "grind" noise upon start-up. Guess I'll need to start whipping out the phone to record the noise until I capture it. It's just so odd...just happened out of the blue, nothing different than any other day. Oh well, still within the powertrain warranty I guess...so all is good.
08-30-11, 06:17 PM
#808
Had my appt at the dealership today. Wasted 2.5hrs to just to be told they couldn't duplicate the issue, so they couldn't do anything. So I talked about what my options are about leaving the car at the dealership and having a miracle of them replicating the grind. To my amazement the service guy came back after 10 minutes and said that the Lexus rep was there at the dealership today. The Lexus rep okay'd the dealership to go ahead and get the parts and they'd call me once everything came in. Wow, I guess I was lucky today! Should have bought a lotto ticket! LOL
09-19-11, 01:16 PM
#809
Pole Position
I wonder since so many people have had this issue; if they've just put out a bulletin to approve this specific repair.
09-19-11, 01:23 PM
#810
I don't think they've instructed dealers just to blindly approve, but I do think they've given guidance that the bar is set lower for proving this issue. I had this issue happening maybe 1 out of every 10 startups so I knew going into the dealership it would be hard to have them replicate it. That's why I downloaded the audio from this thread and saved it to my phone to provide to the dealer to explain the type of sound/issue I'm having. Sure enough when I brought the car in they couldn't replicate it, but after playing the audio I recorded off my phone for them, they went ahead and approved it.