Wests

You couldn't be more wrong.

And yes, the RS4 is currently in a class of its own. The problem you are having is that you are comparing future models to current ones. I GUARANTEE the next-gen S4 will be 400+ HP leaving it in the same class as the M3 etc. You have to realize that the current M3 and S4 began life over 4 years ago when cars like the IS300 and 330i were barely pushing 200+ HP. just because the current IS350s and 335is have caught up with the M3s and S4s doesnt put them in the same class. It simply means that a new even more powerful M3 and S4 are on the way.

natnut

But the IS-F already has more than 400 hp. In order for the new M3 to be above the IS-F in class, it will have to output high 400 to 500hp which is unlikely for 2 reasons :

1) the new M3 has only a 4L V8. To make such high hp(high 400's hp) will mean much more than 100hp/litre which implies a high revving low torque engine.

2) for marketing purposes, BMW will not allow the M3 to encroach on M5 levels of hp.

Similarly, for the new S4 to be similar to the RS4 in hp(RS4 has 420hp) will not make sense from a marketing point of view for Audi.

Therefore, the new S4 will at most be mid 300+ hp which is significantly less than the IS-F,new M3 and AMG class. Hence the S4 will definitely be 1 class below the flagship sedans of Lexus, BMW and MB.

From these, the chances are :

the new M3 will be very similar to IS-F,AMG C-class and RS4 in hp thus putting all 4 in the same class.

The new S4 will be at most high 300+ hp thus it will not be considered in the same class as the rest of above cars.

Wests

For some reason you are fixating on horsepower as THE determining factor for a vehicles class, when in actuality it only plays a partial role in classifying a car.

Wests

Again you are focusing in on an outgoing model (RS4). When the B8 RS4 comes out it is speculated that it will come with close to or over 500hp, hence making a 400HP+ s4 not only a possibility but almost a certainty.

natnut

The RS4 just came out in 2005. That's a bit too fast for a model refresh, especially for European brands.

I'm not just considering hp in classifying the cars.

All the cars(RS4,IS-F,M3,AMG C-class) are basically souped up entry luxury sedans/coupes. They have similar wheelbase, mostly 4 seaters, have small displacement V8's.

Also they come from premium brands Audi, Lexus, MB, BMW.

All are relatively overweight as they aren't hard core track cars but contain a large element of luxury as they target the sports-luxury market.

At the same time, they are more nimble than the M5, E63 AMG, RS6 and GS-F as they are definitely smaller than those mid-luxury sedans.(I'm assuming Audi and Lexus will come out with the top-of-the-line RS6 and GS-F).

My opinion is that Audi screwed up their marketing since it doesn't follow the well accepted categories that the other luxury brands have adopted. This only serves to confuse the average buyer as they don't understand where to place the S and RS models.

The fact that the S4 and RS4 are so expensive that they are priced the same as cars 1 class above them merely serves to emphasize the point that Audi performance cars are way overpriced.

widlfiresd

I could not agree more. A Ford Mustang has 400HP. Would I put it in the same class as a Lexus, Audi, BMW, etc.? Of course not.

A Rolls Royce is slower than a 335, and it is not in the same class either. Horsepower is one of many points considered when determining a vehicles classification.

The issue with the IS-F is the chassis. The Lexus engineers were very limited as to what they could do with such a small car. I wish they would have done a turbo 6 instead and leave the V8 for the GS-F, etc. Now there is no where for the IS-F to go without Lexus making the car larger which I doubt they will do. Even the tires are specially made narrow tires. I think the IS-F was a quick marketing ploy to compete. I suspect we will see other cars down the road that will be more formidable opponents.

ES3

Would a turbo 6 take up more space than the V8?

widlfiresd

I am not sure. I was thinking out loud to tell you the truth.