Mark Levinson == Not so good Imaging?
02-07-07, 09:27 AM
#16
Rookie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Turning off surround
Yes, I already turned off surround for the two-channel sources. Personally I found the surround mode makes the imagining even worse. It makes the music sound scattered, spacy and un-natural.
I also tried biasing the balance to the left to optimize for driver seat listening. It is not quite the same as having the DSP time delay the signals to the appropriate speakers.
It would be nice if there are hidden menus for users to tweak the DSP software.
I think the ML system is pretty good for a car audio system (it is noticeably better than my brother's Bose in his tsx). It is just not as good as what I had hoped for given the the raved reviews and a $1000 price tag.
I also tried biasing the balance to the left to optimize for driver seat listening. It is not quite the same as having the DSP time delay the signals to the appropriate speakers.
It would be nice if there are hidden menus for users to tweak the DSP software.
I think the ML system is pretty good for a car audio system (it is noticeably better than my brother's Bose in his tsx). It is just not as good as what I had hoped for given the the raved reviews and a $1000 price tag.
Turn off the surround sound for CDs and XM. I am pretty sure that it automatically comes on playing DVDs
About optimizing for the Driver etc... It is weird that the car doesnt have this. I have a prototype Nav system(bought used).. and it does have this feature in the menu. It just doesnt work.
Just change the speaker balance 2 away from the driver. I also think its better to move the balance a little to the back, for backfill
About optimizing for the Driver etc... It is weird that the car doesnt have this. I have a prototype Nav system(bought used).. and it does have this feature in the menu. It just doesnt work.
Just change the speaker balance 2 away from the driver. I also think its better to move the balance a little to the back, for backfill
02-07-07, 10:06 AM
#17
Lead Lap
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: ontario
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an audiophile also for many years, I find the ML in my IS350 to be very good. I am not a fan of the big sub, constant 40hz note type of sound, or the exaggerated high-end that many find appealing for short term listening but fatiguing over extended periods of time. Soundstage and image, as well as many other terms used to describe reproduced music, can not happen in a car environment to the degree it can be achieved with a good stereo Hi Fi in a larger room and with the ideal listening position. For a car and a factory option sound system, the ML really is hard to beat.
02-07-07, 10:15 AM
#18
I've personally found the surround to be great. It gives an otherwise boring 2 ch track some color and balancing to the soundstage.
I also agree with the statement above. You would be VERY hard pressed to find a stock system with as much engineering that went into producing the ML system. A car is never going to be the perfect sound stage, but Lexus did a hell of a job with the ML system. Sure a 10 inch or 12 inch sub May have been nicer to reproduce a few deeper low notes, and extra goodies like time processing would be nice, but for what it is, its an incredible oem system.
I also agree with the statement above. You would be VERY hard pressed to find a stock system with as much engineering that went into producing the ML system. A car is never going to be the perfect sound stage, but Lexus did a hell of a job with the ML system. Sure a 10 inch or 12 inch sub May have been nicer to reproduce a few deeper low notes, and extra goodies like time processing would be nice, but for what it is, its an incredible oem system.
02-07-07, 03:36 PM
#19
If I read correctly the OP is not talking about sound quality reproduction and accuracy, but about imaging. I'm don't consider myself a true home audiophile because I don't buy into a lot of the things many of them do, but I do own some decent Class A/B home gear like the Meridian Digital products and spend a many days in the past in my friends Home Audio/Theater store. For the car though it is a different animal.
Imaging and accurate sound-staging is harder to achieve in a car since you can't sit in the sweet spot. Some of those few that have been fortunate enough to hear SQ competition cars where the front sound-stage sounds like it is coming from outside and beyond the front windshield can relate to this. It is not all about th booming bass and loud tweeters. I don't think anyone thinks that is high quality. The first time I heard a really good SQ competition car where the the speakers disappeared, the singer was centered on the dash, the drums sounded like it was coming from outside and in front of the side mirror, and hearing depth, width and height of the sound stage was kind if eerie.
So anyway, I think the ML and many OEM systems today get the accuracy and sound quality part right, but still have a long way to go in terms of imaging like the OP was trying to say. To some people that is important and to others it is not. If imaging is not important to you than enjoy the system. If it is, the fun part of car audio is improving the areas you personally think need improving.
Imaging and accurate sound-staging is harder to achieve in a car since you can't sit in the sweet spot. Some of those few that have been fortunate enough to hear SQ competition cars where the front sound-stage sounds like it is coming from outside and beyond the front windshield can relate to this. It is not all about th booming bass and loud tweeters. I don't think anyone thinks that is high quality. The first time I heard a really good SQ competition car where the the speakers disappeared, the singer was centered on the dash, the drums sounded like it was coming from outside and in front of the side mirror, and hearing depth, width and height of the sound stage was kind if eerie.
So anyway, I think the ML and many OEM systems today get the accuracy and sound quality part right, but still have a long way to go in terms of imaging like the OP was trying to say. To some people that is important and to others it is not. If imaging is not important to you than enjoy the system. If it is, the fun part of car audio is improving the areas you personally think need improving.
Last edited by CK6Speed; 02-14-07 at 03:52 PM.
02-07-07, 04:47 PM
#20
Lead Lap
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: FL
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am glad you like yours...because I hate mine.
02-07-07, 04:49 PM
#21
Lead Lap
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: FL
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hate my system...I don't like the LOUD bass either. But I like to have a little bass in my car to complete the sound.
02-07-07, 04:53 PM
#22
Rookie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CK6Speed, this is exactly the point in my original post.
Before getting the ML system I thought it would be able to project a sound stage larger than the cabin itself.
What's baffling to me is why Lexus or ML did not pay attention to imagining if people can do the same to SQ competition cars. Especially this can be achieved by proper speaker placement and careful DSP software tuning and does not have much material impact to the cost of production. So much for the relentless pursuit of perfection....
Before getting the ML system I thought it would be able to project a sound stage larger than the cabin itself.
What's baffling to me is why Lexus or ML did not pay attention to imagining if people can do the same to SQ competition cars. Especially this can be achieved by proper speaker placement and careful DSP software tuning and does not have much material impact to the cost of production. So much for the relentless pursuit of perfection....
If I read correctly the OP is not talking about sound quality reproduction and accuracy, but about imaging. I'm don't consider myself a true home audiophile because I don't buy into a lot of the things many of them do, but I do own some decent Class A/B home gear like the Meridian Digital products and spend a many days in the past in my friends Home Audio/Theater store. For the car though it is a different animal.
Imagining and accurate sound-staging is harder to achieve in a car since you can't sit in the sweet spot. Some of those few that have been fortunate enough to hear SQ competition cars where the front sound-stage sounds like it is coming from outside and beyond the front windshield can relate to this. It is not all about th booming bass and loud tweeters. I don't think anyone thinks that is high quality. The first time I heard a really good SQ competition car where the the speakers disappeared, the singer was centered on the dash, the drums sounded like it was coming from outside and in front of the side mirror, and hearing depth, width and height of the sound stage was kind if eerie.
So anyway, I think the ML and many OEM systems today get the accuracy and sound quality part right, but still have a long way to go in terms of imaging like the OP was trying to say. To some people that is important and to others it is not. If imaging is not important to you than enjoy the system. If it is, the fun part of car audio is improving the areas you personally think need improving.
Imagining and accurate sound-staging is harder to achieve in a car since you can't sit in the sweet spot. Some of those few that have been fortunate enough to hear SQ competition cars where the front sound-stage sounds like it is coming from outside and beyond the front windshield can relate to this. It is not all about th booming bass and loud tweeters. I don't think anyone thinks that is high quality. The first time I heard a really good SQ competition car where the the speakers disappeared, the singer was centered on the dash, the drums sounded like it was coming from outside and in front of the side mirror, and hearing depth, width and height of the sound stage was kind if eerie.
So anyway, I think the ML and many OEM systems today get the accuracy and sound quality part right, but still have a long way to go in terms of imaging like the OP was trying to say. To some people that is important and to others it is not. If imaging is not important to you than enjoy the system. If it is, the fun part of car audio is improving the areas you personally think need improving.
02-07-07, 07:08 PM
#24
Lead Lap
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: FL
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
02-07-07, 08:29 PM
#25
Lexus Test Driver
CK6Speed, this is exactly the point in my original post.
Before getting the ML system I thought it would be able to project a sound stage larger than the cabin itself.
What's baffling to me is why Lexus or ML did not pay attention to imagining if people can do the same to SQ competition cars. Especially this can be achieved by proper speaker placement and careful DSP software tuning and does not have much material impact to the cost of production. So much for the relentless pursuit of perfection....
Before getting the ML system I thought it would be able to project a sound stage larger than the cabin itself.
What's baffling to me is why Lexus or ML did not pay attention to imagining if people can do the same to SQ competition cars. Especially this can be achieved by proper speaker placement and careful DSP software tuning and does not have much material impact to the cost of production. So much for the relentless pursuit of perfection....
Lexus has to design the car to have features that are practical. I'm pretty impressed with my ML system...best stock system I've ever heard. I had a Bose system in a previous vehicle, and it was boomy, muddy, bad.
02-08-07, 08:31 AM
#26
Lead Lap
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: ontario
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My last vehicle, an Infiniti FX, had a Bose system and the ML is a huge improvement. I have had many cars over the years and always purchased whatever premium sound system was available and find the ML to be the best so far...just my opinion.
02-14-07, 03:51 PM
#29
Oh never mind. I found one typo and corrected it. Funny how the mind or fingers type it correctly sometimes and then incorrectly the very next sentence. I completely missed it.
02-14-07, 03:58 PM
#30
I think Lexus strives to improve their cars on a regular basis. However, I don't think they'd sacrifice interior design for superior speaker placement. Most people buying the ML don't even know what imaging is, and if they had placed speakers in the kick panels, etc, just imagine the 10 page threads that would be on this site when people kicked sand/snow/etc into them during certain parts of the year.
.
.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
sherif2
GS - 3rd Gen (2006-2011)
2
06-21-19 08:33 PM