CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I see. So in this case since the OP saw the mechanic working on his car for about 20minutes give or take, he should have legal grounds to dispute the 1 hour time charged than right? Maybe it is about time customers start holding business accoutable when they do have proof.

neova

I did my OEM rear deck spoiler and x-pkg lip install at the dealer as well. I first spoke with my service manager and asked for an estimate. He estimated about 1 .5 to 2.5 hours for the entire job. 1.5 hr for installing a painted lip sounds like a long time, but my service manager explained to me that the front and rear lips require drilling holes and also using sealant in those holes (esp in the trunk) to prevent rusting. Also, he wanted his mechanic to take time drilling the holes correctly for a tighter fit. It is definately not a 20-minute job, and if it was to be done right.

So I went to a couple other independent shops for a quote, and they have me similar times. So the only difference was labour cost where the dealer was CAD$115/hr and the local garage anywhere from CAD$60 (small shop) to CAD$90 (typical shop). In the end I said forget the small difference and just have the dealer install/warranty the parts. I ended up paying for 1.5 hour (low end of the original estimate) and I was away from the dealership while this happend.

When I dropped off my car, my service manager printed me an estimate with the written quote, and I had to initial that quote before I gave him the keys for the service. Doesn't matter what you do, always get things in writing. I guess you were just dealing with a sneaky service manager.

donm3ga

Dealerships are always finding ways to make extra cash. Shady!

IS350jet

Sorry, this is wrong. You've obviously never worked in a dealership or any repair facility for that matter. ALL automotive repair facilities (not just dealerships) use book time. Actual job time is NEVER used unless it's used for diagnostic time for warranty purposes. They do this because it's the only way to be fair to ALL customers. What would happen if you took your car to have a water pump replaced and a rookie technician took 6 hours to complete the job? At $100.00/hr plus parts you'd have a hefty bill. Now, let's say your neighbor takes his exact same car to the exact same shop but this time a seasoned technician did the job in 45 minutes. If both customers were charged actual time you'd have on very pissed off customer. BTW, I used the term "book time" because somebody referred to it earlier. The actual term used in a dealership is called "flat rate" The data comes out of the "flat rate" manual and there's is nothing illegal about it. THAT'S HOW IT'S DONE.

l1tech

If you are given an estimate for work to be performed and agree to that estimate then you have no grounds for legal action no matter what profession you are in.

Book time is not something that we pull out of thin air, the auto mfgs and also independent companies do studies on how long it takes to perform these jobs with the appropriately trained technician. There are multiple labor guides in print and any good shop will reference a few of them if there is a question. But how about this for a solution, for now on everybody only pays what the mechanic earns an hour + 10%(the shop has to stay in business also) and only pays for the actual amount of time that it took, the customer also pays the service writer for his actual time according to his hourly wage, and then the customer can pay the parts personnel their actual time that was spent sourcing the parts for thier car, If you want a receipt we can charge you for the paper also. I'm just trying to show people that there is alot more that goes into the labor aspect than the actual time spent working on the car.

shaolin

iTrader: (2)

I don't know if it's reasonable... these wings can probably cost them less than $10 to make and what ever cost of paint. It might be normal for what you pay but I know they still screw us over for anyting.

I say " NO GOOD DEAL"

Bichon

This is the problem with the system. It rewards mechanics for cutting corners, so long as it isn't obvious to the customer and doesn't result in an early failure attributable to the repair. I'm talking about things like leaving out bolts and fasteners that are difficult to get to, not using a torque wrench, etc. So while I have no problem rewarding mechanics who work fast due to their investment in special tools or extensive experience, I am loathe to provide that compensation when speed comes at the expense of quality work.

My other complaint about the flat rate system is that it often charges customers who are having multiple repairs done for the same operation twice. For example, the labor estimate for a brake job includes the time to put the car on the lift and remove the wheels, then to replace the wheels and drive the car off the lift. If the customer is having a brake job at the same time they are paying to switch from snow to summer tires, they are actually being charged for those operations twice.

RocketGuy3

iTrader: (1)

Well that's really how it should work. Any time that the mechanic misjudges the number of hours it will take to do certain work, it is THEIR fault, isn't it? The customer should never have to pay for their mistake, whether they overestimate or underestimate.

kensteele

...and there's the bottom line folks.

davidbenji

oh i would like to add one more thing...the only time there would be and "adjustment" to an estimate YOU AGREE TO is if there are addtional costs involved...ie addtional parts and or labor. But most reputable dealers would call to inform you and get your authorization

l1tech

Unfortunately you are right about this and it bugs me to no end to see half assed repairs that actually casued another fault. I can tell you that more than one person has been fired from where I work because of this, but all we can do is pull the weeds when they pop up, unfortunately not so many shops care about this, they just put out the fires when they pop up and don't concentrate on prevention.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

How many hours does the "good" flat rate technician log in a 40 hour work week? If he's worth anything, he logs 80 hours.

As a for instance, a long time ago Honda had a recall on clutches. Flat rate time was 4.5 hours. A very good friend worked at a Honda dealership. The first one he did took 6 hours. The second took 3.5 hours. The third took 2 hours. After he'd done about eight of them, it took 45 minutes. That's a lot shorter than 4.5 hours.

I know from personal experience that familiarity with a task means a lot. The first flywheel replacement I did in a Scion tC took me nearly 8 hours. Now (after doing 8 of them) I can do it in 3 hours from start to finish. There is no substitute for task experience.

warrionex

You're absolutely correct. They knew the installation was going to take about 20 min but they misrepresented the customer that the job was going to take 2 hours. In my location, the situation is worse they are the only dealer available so we are affected daily by the monopoly practices. You just need to keep you eyes wide open and exercise you legal rights.

Warrionex

warrionex

My comments were correct based on "standard book time". It wasn't me the one who used that term in the first place. But now you change the term to "flat rate". This is a whole new story. First things first, I agree with your interpretation based on "the "flat rate system" but keep in mind that installing a rear spoiler just for the looks is not clasify as repair. In this situation the Auto Mechanic's Flat Rate Pay System does not apply. The dealer is telling you this is going to take 2 hours (some 3 hours) and he knew beforehand this wasn't the thruth. He knew this was a 20-30min job. That is a fraudulent practice. That's it !!

Let me tell my friend, if your are in front of a judge and this is the situacion, your theory will be demolished.

Again, remember this is not a repair and the flat rate system does not apply. This is a contract between you and the dealer. The manufacturer (Toyota-Lexus) is not involved in these case like in repairs under warrranty.

And yes, you are correct that I have never worked in a dealership. I thanks God for that !!!

IS350jet

Having never worked in a dealership is all you needed to say. You don't understand the system. The way you describe is NOT how it works, there is nothing illegal about it, and there are no legal grounds on which to stand. Any and all repairs, even spoilers and accessories have a flat rate time that the tech gets paid for. Is this flat rate negotiable? If you're submitting a bid from a competing shop, sometimes, yes. I would think that most people on CL understand this system and are OK with it. It's not just dealerships but all, and I mean ALL shops use the flat rate system. Nobody and I mean NOBODY, EVER uses actual time worked on a job unless it is for diagnostic time submitted for warranty purposes. That's just how the system works, and HAS worked for a hundred years. There's nothing shady about it. Maybe you should do some more research to fully understand the ins and outs of the system before telling the OP he has a legal leg to stand on, which clearly, he does not.