Negotiate Everything at the Dealership
03-30-07, 07:49 AM
#31
Lexus Champion
what a load of crap. sell your car and go get a dodge and free yourself from the lexus monopoly that is oppressing affluent people all across the island with their daily price manipulating, tyrannical maintenance appointment scheduling, and other illegal billing, sales, and trade practices. lol
03-30-07, 02:52 PM
#32
what a load of crap. sell your car and go get a dodge and free yourself from the lexus monopoly that is oppressing affluent people all across the island with their daily price manipulating, tyrannical maintenance appointment scheduling, and other illegal billing, sales, and trade practices. lol
The same thing happens with Acura, Audi and Mercedes. Just move to Hawaii and you will feel the pain. They also have the same situation.
Warrionex
03-30-07, 03:10 PM
#33
Having never worked in a dealership is all you needed to say. You don't understand the system. The way you describe is NOT how it works, there is nothing illegal about it, and there are no legal grounds on which to stand. Any and all repairs, even spoilers and accessories have a flat rate time that the tech gets paid for. Is this flat rate negotiable? If you're submitting a bid from a competing shop, sometimes, yes. I would think that most people on CL understand this system and are OK with it. It's not just dealerships but all, and I mean ALL shops use the flat rate system. Nobody and I mean NOBODY, EVER uses actual time worked on a job unless it is for diagnostic time submitted for warranty purposes. That's just how the system works, and HAS worked for a hundred years. There's nothing shady about it. Maybe you should do some more research to fully understand the ins and outs of the system before telling the OP he has a legal leg to stand on, which clearly, he does not.
I'm not trying to argue with you. But It is you who don't understand what I am saying. You are explaining how the "flat rate" works and I agree with your explanation. But I am talking about a "defect in the exercise of consent".
Let me see if you get it with this example. Let's say that on the books the flat rate for a certain job is is $100 and in the books its says it only takes 1 hour to finish. If I go to the dealer and they tell me this job takes 3 hours and quote me for $300, and I agree with that quotation without knowing that in the books it only takes 1 hour, there is a defect my consent. According to the book they are not telling the thruth. That's why some dealers, charge $980 for a rear spoiler plus installation and others charge $350 or less. In this example I gave my consent based on a false representation. You are not making an inform decision and this is not legally acceptable.
Last edited by warrionex; 03-30-07 at 03:20 PM.
03-30-07, 05:22 PM
#34
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I agree with Warrionex; and not ALL shops are dishonest and go beyond the call of duty to scam you. What I dont get is how WE are the ones with the cars and the ones with the MONEY, yet they walk all over us and try to make us spend hundreds of dollars on something that is not worth that amount. I.E. A spoiler should not cost $992.89 with 3 hours of installation at $1392.45. Believe me, I bought my 1992 Lexus SC300 for less than $1,000 dollars and its overal worth is about 6 or 7 thousand dollars. thats 1/6th of the value of the car, thats like paying 10,000 dollars for a spoiler installation on a $60,000 car JUST because it's a luxury Lexus.
-GET REAL DEALERSHIPS!-
This is what p***es me off about the dealerships, ESPECIALLY Lexus.
1. They ALWAYS overcharge you on a product no matter if your friend alberto can MAKE the product in 20 mins and cost less than $50.
2. They always PREY upon the uninformed. I.E. a woman who doesnt know that "Blinker Fluid" is no such thing and that her brake pads are NOT P.O.S. and need replacing for $300.
3. The LEGALLY steal, cheat, and Lie to optimize their profits.
4. They pay their technicians WAY TOO MUCH, which in turn, makes our costs WAY TOO HIGH.
5. It takes A long time to resolve issues with them, and by the time you have resolved the issue they STILL charge you for the labor and the product at a fishy price. (After all that arguing and YOU are the one that's right, they should give 60% off the total amount due to THEIR lies, cheats, and attempted "legal" theft of our money!)
Bottom Line: Do not go to dealerships unless you absolutely must purchase an item that you cannot find anywhere else brand new and/or in great condition, and when you go to these dealerships, bring a mechanically informed individual with you(unless you yourself know your way around autos).
**NOTE** You may also try to find items that you are in need of by simply searching this site for that item in the buying/selling locations of the site.
-I'm Chris and I approve of this message-
(Bite me Dealerships!)
-GET REAL DEALERSHIPS!-
This is what p***es me off about the dealerships, ESPECIALLY Lexus.
1. They ALWAYS overcharge you on a product no matter if your friend alberto can MAKE the product in 20 mins and cost less than $50.
2. They always PREY upon the uninformed. I.E. a woman who doesnt know that "Blinker Fluid" is no such thing and that her brake pads are NOT P.O.S. and need replacing for $300.
3. The LEGALLY steal, cheat, and Lie to optimize their profits.
4. They pay their technicians WAY TOO MUCH, which in turn, makes our costs WAY TOO HIGH.
5. It takes A long time to resolve issues with them, and by the time you have resolved the issue they STILL charge you for the labor and the product at a fishy price. (After all that arguing and YOU are the one that's right, they should give 60% off the total amount due to THEIR lies, cheats, and attempted "legal" theft of our money!)
Bottom Line: Do not go to dealerships unless you absolutely must purchase an item that you cannot find anywhere else brand new and/or in great condition, and when you go to these dealerships, bring a mechanically informed individual with you(unless you yourself know your way around autos).
**NOTE** You may also try to find items that you are in need of by simply searching this site for that item in the buying/selling locations of the site.
-I'm Chris and I approve of this message-
(Bite me Dealerships!)
Last edited by silencer92; 03-30-07 at 05:31 PM.
03-30-07, 06:11 PM
#35
Lexus Champion
So you would rather have them hire low paid (i.e., low qualifications) technicians???? What is that going to get you? I'll tell you what it will get you.....low cost and low quality. Think you'll be happy then? 
03-30-07, 07:41 PM
#36
Lexus Champion
silencer and the warrior should get together and compare notes. obviously they took the same business course, math classes, and law class the way they describe the dire "situation" with car dealerships lol.
03-30-07, 07:57 PM
#37
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Allow me to make an example of how to they get payed is too extra for what they do. A friend of mine used to work for Intel a couple of years ago. He earned $45 an hour for simply putting chips inside a microwave........I can do that, and can do it efficiently. Whats to say you cant install your OWN spoiler if your THAT into cars, rather than pay $1000 for the bumper AND installation. I saw the OEM original stock spoiler for all SC's of All years going for $120+ shipping = $160. +or- a few dollars. Installation cant be another hundred dollars an hour because the work does not even make you sweat at all and takes less than 1/2 hour to complete. Please, no need to be pushy as you have a point there about low cost and low quality, but it doesnt take much to do a good job on the spoiler install. I speak only from my personal experiences because I never had money to pay for a professional installation, nor would I have now that I realize what the job involves. For all you car-care fanatics I'd recommend looking on this site, or further on the web for DIY info on a stock or aftermarket spoiler install, as it feels much better knowing that you yourself have done the task at hand and have done it right because it is your car, NOT the professional's car.
03-30-07, 08:03 PM
#38
03-30-07, 08:34 PM
#39
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They are making a GOOD amount, the wages vary among technicians though. Some of the jobs they perform dont require a technician but they still get payed more than enough to cover the job and the materials used. I hope this is my last post on the subject as I already experienced some hardships with dealers in the past. If you'd like to test the waters, by all means go and find out what it's like. That way, you'll be just like me and have a certain disrespect for the way dealerships try to bring in their profits out there. What ever works for you all, I wish you the best of luck. It's 11:30pm and I need to go to sleep lol. Goodnight Everyone.....
03-30-07, 08:51 PM
#40
They are making a GOOD amount, the wages vary among technicians though. Some of the jobs they perform dont require a technician but they still get payed more than enough to cover the job and the materials used. I hope this is my last post on the subject as I already experienced some hardships with dealers in the past. If you'd like to test the waters, by all means go and find out what it's like. That way, you'll be just like me and have a certain disrespect for the way dealerships try to bring in their profits out there. What ever works for you all, I wish you the best of luck. It's 11:30pm and I need to go to sleep lol. Goodnight Everyone.....
03-30-07, 11:35 PM
#41
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Roseville CA BMW realised their techs were pulling in $125k a year, and restructured their comp plan so they only made $85k a year. I know directly from one of their lead techs who left after the pay restructuring.
I don't work in a shop because the work is physically demanding (I have a disability), the customers are mostly jerks, and the pay isn't anywhere near enough to cover the grief. I make a whole lot more doing what I do without getting greasy, further injuring my back, or having to interface with rude, arrogant customers who think I get all the shop rate for working on their cars.
I'd much rather do one off stuff for people I know, trust, and respect. So I do.
I don't work in a shop because the work is physically demanding (I have a disability), the customers are mostly jerks, and the pay isn't anywhere near enough to cover the grief. I make a whole lot more doing what I do without getting greasy, further injuring my back, or having to interface with rude, arrogant customers who think I get all the shop rate for working on their cars.
I'd much rather do one off stuff for people I know, trust, and respect. So I do.
03-30-07, 11:48 PM
#42
For the people that think a one hour job should take one hour to do, would you prefer it if the technician finished your job in 20 minutes and then go hide in the restroom and come out in 2 hours, and make you feel like you got a good deal?
Forget the idea of the time... Just a bottom line installation price is what you should look at.
Forget the idea of the time... Just a bottom line installation price is what you should look at.
03-31-07, 02:01 AM
#43
I think this topic has pretty much run its course. I'm not going to close it, but it is obvious that there are difference of opinion on how the system "Should" work, so if you are simply going to post to argue this different point of view you probably should just step back and move on.
03-31-07, 04:29 AM
#44
Pole Position
IS350jet:
I'm not trying to argue with you. But It is you who don't understand what I am saying. You are explaining how the "flat rate" works and I agree with your explanation. But I am talking about a "defect in the exercise of consent".
Let me see if you get it with this example. Let's say that on the books the flat rate for a certain job is is $100 and in the books its says it only takes 1 hour to finish. If I go to the dealer and they tell me this job takes 3 hours and quote me for $300, and I agree with that quotation without knowing that in the books it only takes 1 hour, there is a defect my consent. According to the book they are not telling the thruth. That's why some dealers, charge $980 for a rear spoiler plus installation and others charge $350 or less. In this example I gave my consent based on a false representation. You are not making an inform decision and this is not legally acceptable.
I'm not trying to argue with you. But It is you who don't understand what I am saying. You are explaining how the "flat rate" works and I agree with your explanation. But I am talking about a "defect in the exercise of consent".
Let me see if you get it with this example. Let's say that on the books the flat rate for a certain job is is $100 and in the books its says it only takes 1 hour to finish. If I go to the dealer and they tell me this job takes 3 hours and quote me for $300, and I agree with that quotation without knowing that in the books it only takes 1 hour, there is a defect my consent. According to the book they are not telling the thruth. That's why some dealers, charge $980 for a rear spoiler plus installation and others charge $350 or less. In this example I gave my consent based on a false representation. You are not making an inform decision and this is not legally acceptable.
I see your point about overcharging the posted flat rate for a particular job. I can assure you, this is somewhat uncommon practice. I say somewhat because, as you can see, it does happen. The dealer is not out to screw you. I'm sorry that you and Silencer feel so bitter about dealerships. I can guarantee you that most cases involving over-charging the flat rate, stem from a lazy service adviser. They don't know how much the job pays and they're too lazy to go look it up, so they guess, and they guess high, just to cover their ***'s. If you buy it, great! If you don't, great! They don't really care. The job didn't pay that well, anyway. He's looking for gravy work. 30k, 60k, brakes, timing belts, not LOF's or warranty CEL's. Please, whatever you do, don't blame the technician or the dealership. A good service adviser is your best friend.
03-31-07, 04:58 AM
#45
Warrionex, nobody's arguing, we're... discussing.
I see your point about overcharging the posted flat rate for a particular job. I can assure you, this is somewhat uncommon practice. I say somewhat because, as you can see, it does happen. The dealer is not out to screw you. I'm sorry that you and Silencer feel so bitter about dealerships. I can guarantee you that most cases involving over-charging the flat rate, stem from a lazy service adviser. They don't know how much the job pays and they're too lazy to go look it up, so they guess, and they guess high, just to cover their ***'s. If you buy it, great! If you don't, great! They don't really care. The job didn't pay that well, anyway. He's looking for gravy work. 30k, 60k, brakes, timing belts, not LOF's or warranty CEL's. Please, whatever you do, don't blame the technician or the dealership. A good service adviser is your best friend.
I see your point about overcharging the posted flat rate for a particular job. I can assure you, this is somewhat uncommon practice. I say somewhat because, as you can see, it does happen. The dealer is not out to screw you. I'm sorry that you and Silencer feel so bitter about dealerships. I can guarantee you that most cases involving over-charging the flat rate, stem from a lazy service adviser. They don't know how much the job pays and they're too lazy to go look it up, so they guess, and they guess high, just to cover their ***'s. If you buy it, great! If you don't, great! They don't really care. The job didn't pay that well, anyway. He's looking for gravy work. 30k, 60k, brakes, timing belts, not LOF's or warranty CEL's. Please, whatever you do, don't blame the technician or the dealership. A good service adviser is your best friend.
They also controls, together with Toyota, what type of cars we get here. This is what they sell you:
1) $41,000 -IS250 RWD Base model (no a single additional option or accesory)
2) $49,000 - IS250 RWD with Luxury Package (None of the others packages available)
3) $49,000 - IS250 AWD Premium Pack (That it!)
4) $56,000 - IS350 with Luxury (That's it)
No NAV Pack, No ML, No other packages, no nothing, etc.
Now I know now you will understand our situation in PR. The same thing happens with Acura and Audi.
I'm really serious considering buying my IS in the states. I know you and my fellow members of CL will help me in that process.
Regards,
Warrionex
Last edited by warrionex; 03-31-07 at 01:14 PM.