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Mother of all "Should I get IS250 or IS350?" threads (merged into one steaming pile)
12-13-09 | 06:21 PM
#511
F is for Fraud
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 0
From: Québec
I drove 4 hours to get the 350 over about 100 250's that were closer to me. The 100hp was just way to much for me to overlook. Plus I've heard from numerous people that the 250 is sluggish and underpowered. IMO, they should have just made it a 4cyl and made it get great MPG (30+ HWY) Like the Acura TSX. The drive train would have been even cheaper and it could of potentially competed with the TSX. Maybe even put the Hybrid motor in there and skip the creation of the HS250.
I also think they should have made a 6spd RWD version of the IS350 and an AWD version in the standard automatic. Theres NO reason not to have those options.
LAstly, I'd venture to say 85% of IS's sold are 250's, as I very RARELY see another 350 on the road. I dont need tons of HP in a car like this, but the 350 has the power to get out of its way and make a quick decision. In a car this expensive (40k+ with nav) I think that's something that should always be included. I mean lets be real here, our cars are affordable luxury cars right? Well look at full blown luxury cars (High end Mercedes, Bmw's, Bentley, Maserati, etc...) They all have POWER. Not to be race cars but because its part of the luxury ambiance.
I also think they should have made a 6spd RWD version of the IS350 and an AWD version in the standard automatic. Theres NO reason not to have those options.
LAstly, I'd venture to say 85% of IS's sold are 250's, as I very RARELY see another 350 on the road. I dont need tons of HP in a car like this, but the 350 has the power to get out of its way and make a quick decision. In a car this expensive (40k+ with nav) I think that's something that should always be included. I mean lets be real here, our cars are affordable luxury cars right? Well look at full blown luxury cars (High end Mercedes, Bmw's, Bentley, Maserati, etc...) They all have POWER. Not to be race cars but because its part of the luxury ambiance.
In any case at all, if Lexus were even thinking about offering a dedicated manual tranny, don't you think that they would have done so in the LFA?
In short, there's no market for it. I frequent some AMG boards occasionally and they never complain about the lack of a manual tranny in their cars... nor do the people on most Ferrari forums. I don't see why it would be any different here.
12-13-09 | 07:12 PM
#512
The suspension is the same on both cars too. (both standard and sport suspensions; though in later years the sport suspension was only available via x package rather than sport package on the 250.
First, almost nobody wants a manual anymore. Even where they offer them (the 250) the automatic outsells it 20:1.
Manuals are antiques. The manual 250 gets worse mileage than the auto. The auto in the IS-F shifts FAR faster than any human with a manual could.
Even on a twisty track something like the porsche PDK (no clutch pedal) beats the manual transmission version handily, and AFAIK the F automatic in M mode shifts even faster than that.
AWD makes even less sense... it's useless on a performance car under 500 hp unless you refuse to buy decent tires in the winter or plan to go off road... otherwise it's a bunch of extra weight killing your mileage and making the car slow... who would want that on the performance oriented versions of the 2IS?
Not to mention an AWD IS350 would just cannibalize AWD GS sales for Lexus.
12-13-09 | 09:04 PM
#515
12-13-09 | 09:37 PM
#516
12-13-09 | 09:48 PM
#517
I am fairly certain that Lexus conducted market studies and deemed it highly improbable that a majority of buyers of the IS350 or IS F would long for a manual transmission. In the end, you need to realize that a dedicated 6-speed manual transmission would have driven the costs up, the IS350 could have easily cost $3-4k more if it would be available as either a manual or automatic.
In any case at all, if Lexus were even thinking about offering a dedicated manual tranny, don't you think that they would have done so in the LFA?
In short, there's no market for it. I frequent some AMG boards occasionally and they never complain about the lack of a manual tranny in their cars... nor do the people on most Ferrari forums. I don't see why it would be any different here.
In any case at all, if Lexus were even thinking about offering a dedicated manual tranny, don't you think that they would have done so in the LFA?
In short, there's no market for it. I frequent some AMG boards occasionally and they never complain about the lack of a manual tranny in their cars... nor do the people on most Ferrari forums. I don't see why it would be any different here.
#1 Your nuts. PLENTY of people buy the new M3 in 6spd, they dont seem to be having an issue selling those? As well as the S5, S4 and RS4.
#2 Manual tranny's are WAY less expensive then auto's too, IDK where your getting that idea. Theres no computers needed for manual tranny's, like automatics need. Manual transmission cars are usually cheaper.
#3 I as well as a friend were both going to buy new is350's in Jan of 06 and didnt. You know why? Because of lack of manual transmission. We bought g35 coupes in 6spd instead. There are lots of people out there that still love to have a manual transmission.
#4 Dont compare our auto torque converter crap to a ferrari or really anything with a DSG/twin clutch. We have a regular Automatic. DSG is completely different. If we had a DSG, then maybe I'd understand. The ISF has an amazing tranny, dont get me wrong. But I'd be much happier with a standard 6spd and a 5k lower price tag. Lexus BARELY makes any ISF's to begin with and you think people wouldnt buy it in manual form?
#5 The real reason there is no manual in our cars is because Toyota doesnt have a tranny that they are confident with to support the power of these cars. If your going to bring up additional cost to make a manual, then why the hell would they even make the IS250 come in manual? Thats just a waste of time. They should have just kept it cheap, and contracted Getrag to make a 6spd trans for the 350 and ISF. It still would have been cheaper. BMW has 6spd's in their 335's, people still buy those.
And of course the LFA isnt going to come manual. I wouldnt expect it to. Its a supercar, not a regular sports car. It needs to have the utmost technology. Any car 200k+ I dont expect to come 6spd, although it would be bad ***. But the regular sports cars, vettes, vipers, f430's, 997's, they all come in stock. SHlT, the Z06/Viper ONLY comes in stick and that doesnt seem to hurt sales.
Uh, 17s are standard on both cars. 18s are optional, on both cars.
The suspension is the same on both cars too. (both standard and sport suspensions; though in later years the sport suspension was only available via x package rather than sport package on the 250.
Why?
First, almost nobody wants a manual anymore. Even where they offer them (the 250) the automatic outsells it 20:1.
Manuals are antiques. The manual 250 gets worse mileage than the auto. The auto in the IS-F shifts FAR faster than any human with a manual could.
Even on a twisty track something like the porsche PDK (no clutch pedal) beats the manual transmission version handily, and AFAIK the F automatic in M mode shifts even faster than that.
AWD makes even less sense... it's useless on a performance car under 500 hp unless you refuse to buy decent tires in the winter or plan to go off road... otherwise it's a bunch of extra weight killing your mileage and making the car slow... who would want that on the performance oriented versions of the 2IS?
Not to mention an AWD IS350 would just cannibalize AWD GS sales for Lexus.
The suspension is the same on both cars too. (both standard and sport suspensions; though in later years the sport suspension was only available via x package rather than sport package on the 250.
Why?
First, almost nobody wants a manual anymore. Even where they offer them (the 250) the automatic outsells it 20:1.
Manuals are antiques. The manual 250 gets worse mileage than the auto. The auto in the IS-F shifts FAR faster than any human with a manual could.
Even on a twisty track something like the porsche PDK (no clutch pedal) beats the manual transmission version handily, and AFAIK the F automatic in M mode shifts even faster than that.
AWD makes even less sense... it's useless on a performance car under 500 hp unless you refuse to buy decent tires in the winter or plan to go off road... otherwise it's a bunch of extra weight killing your mileage and making the car slow... who would want that on the performance oriented versions of the 2IS?
Not to mention an AWD IS350 would just cannibalize AWD GS sales for Lexus.
And AWD IS350 would not effect GS sales as much as you think. The IS is more of a younger persons car, or smaller family car if anything. The GS is a bigger car, more family oriented. IDK where you guys get this BS from. The G37X doesnt hurt the sales of the M35X. The AUDI A4 doesnt hurt the A6. The AWD TL doesnt hurt the AWD RL and now the TSX is going to come in 6cyl. Is that going to hurt 6cyl sales of the TL? I doubt it.
Manuals are not antiques. Maybe YOU feel that way but thats not everyone's opinion. Did I say they shouldnt make automatics? NO, I said there should be a manual option. I'm 25, I like manual transmissions in some cars and given the power of the IS350, I think it would be a blast in 6spd. 6spd, RWD and 300+HP is a GREAT platform and alot of fun.
And I completely believe the 6spd is250 sells 1:20 vs the automatic. That was a complete WASTE. The main difference between the 250 and 350 is the 100hp. For the most part anyone looking to upgrade to a 350 is going to do so for more power. So if you want more power chances are your into cars to some extent and might prefer a manual. I think manual 350's would sell much better proportionately to autos then their 250 counterparts.
Seems people on here are more concerned with LFA stats and lambo doors then actually enjoying a car. A manual transmission offers alot of driver feel and is overall a great experience. I'd venture to say some of the people bad mouthing a manual IS dont even know how to drive stick.
12-13-09 | 09:52 PM
#518
I drove 4 hours to get the 350 over about 100 250's that were closer to me. The 100hp was just way to much for me to overlook. Plus I've heard from numerous people that the 250 is sluggish and underpowered. IMO, they should have just made it a 4cyl and made it get great MPG (30+ HWY) Like the Acura TSX. The drive train would have been even cheaper and it could of potentially competed with the TSX. Maybe even put the Hybrid motor in there and skip the creation of the HS250.
The 250 has a great V6. Sure it's not as fast as the 350 but IMO V6s offer a much smoother ride than a 4 banger could (same with V8s to V6s
). Something to consider is that the 250 gives 21/29 MPG and the TSX's 4 cylinder gives 21/30 so it's not all that big of a difference.
12-13-09 | 10:04 PM
#519
1. i have my doubts, but without looking at numbers that's just a guess at best.
2. true, but iirc there weren't that many cars in the north america lexus line-up that had manual transmissions to begin with. that's simply not their "demographics".
3. ... and now you have an is350. if you liked a sports sedan w/ manual transmission, what gives?
4. i don't think the cost difference between the is250 AT and the is250 6sp is $5k.
5. not true. see: supra twin turbo.
2. true, but iirc there weren't that many cars in the north america lexus line-up that had manual transmissions to begin with. that's simply not their "demographics".
3. ... and now you have an is350. if you liked a sports sedan w/ manual transmission, what gives?
4. i don't think the cost difference between the is250 AT and the is250 6sp is $5k.
5. not true. see: supra twin turbo.
12-13-09 | 10:20 PM
#520
Guest
Posts: n/a
I drove 4 hours to get the 350 over about 100 250's that were closer to me. The 100hp was just way to much for me to overlook. Plus I've heard from numerous people that the 250 is sluggish and underpowered. IMO, they should have just made it a 4cyl and made it get great MPG (30+ HWY) Like the Acura TSX. The drive train would have been even cheaper and it could of potentially competed with the TSX. Maybe even put the Hybrid motor in there and skip the creation of the HS250.
I also think they should have made a 6spd RWD version of the IS350 and an AWD version in the standard automatic. Theres NO reason not to have those options.
LAstly, I'd venture to say 85% of IS's sold are 250's, as I very RARELY see another 350 on the road. I dont need tons of HP in a car like this, but the 350 has the power to get out of its way and make a quick decision. In a car this expensive (40k+ with nav) I think that's something that should always be included. I mean lets be real here, our cars are affordable luxury cars right? Well look at full blown luxury cars (High end Mercedes, Bmw's, Bentley, Maserati, etc...) They all have POWER. Not to be race cars but because its part of the luxury ambiance.
I also think they should have made a 6spd RWD version of the IS350 and an AWD version in the standard automatic. Theres NO reason not to have those options.
LAstly, I'd venture to say 85% of IS's sold are 250's, as I very RARELY see another 350 on the road. I dont need tons of HP in a car like this, but the 350 has the power to get out of its way and make a quick decision. In a car this expensive (40k+ with nav) I think that's something that should always be included. I mean lets be real here, our cars are affordable luxury cars right? Well look at full blown luxury cars (High end Mercedes, Bmw's, Bentley, Maserati, etc...) They all have POWER. Not to be race cars but because its part of the luxury ambiance.
#1 Your nuts. PLENTY of people buy the new M3 in 6spd, they dont seem to be having an issue selling those? As well as the S5, S4 and RS4.
1. Do not start a post with "your nuts" (you're nuts). That is offensive.
#2 Manual tranny's are WAY less expensive then auto's too, IDK where your getting that idea. Theres no computers needed for manual tranny's, like automatics need. Manual transmission cars are usually cheaper.
This is not true as manuals are an option on many sports cars and yes you pay extra for it.
#3 I as well as a friend were both going to buy new is350's in Jan of 06 and didnt. You know why? Because of lack of manual transmission. We bought g35 coupes in 6spd instead. There are lots of people out there that still love to have a manual transmission.
There are lots of people that sat in a G35 and saw the interior of a 1985 Hyundai Excel. Read my post, people have different priorities.
#4 Dont compare our auto torque converter crap to a ferrari or really anything with a DSG/twin clutch. We have a regular Automatic. DSG is completely different. If we had a DSG, then maybe I'd understand. The ISF has an amazing tranny, dont get me wrong. But I'd be much happier with a standard 6spd and a 5k lower price tag. Lexus BARELY makes any ISF's to begin with and you think people wouldnt buy it in manual form?
I own a manual Lexus. Its not very good. I've driven every manual Lexus. They are not great. Look, there is simply no large market for manual cars, let alone Lexus ones. We are lucky the 250 has a manual offered.
#5 The real reason there is no manual in our cars is because Toyota doesnt have a tranny that they are confident with to support the power of these cars. If your going to bring up additional cost to make a manual, then why the hell would they even make the IS250 come in manual? Thats just a waste of time. They should have just kept it cheap, and contracted Getrag to make a 6spd trans for the 350 and ISF. It still would have been cheaper. BMW has 6spd's in their 335's, people still buy those.
B/C people EXCEPT BMW to sell a manual. They are more performance oriented. I think it would be GREAT to see an IS 350 manual. I also know all those people on the internet asking for it and saying they need it WON'T BUY IT. FYI close to 70% of Corvettes sold are AUTOMATICS and Porsche 911s in Europe will be PDK.
And of course the LFA isnt going to come manual. I wouldnt expect it to. Its a supercar, not a regular sports car. It needs to have the utmost technology. Any car 200k+ I dont expect to come 6spd, although it would be bad ***. But the regular sports cars, vettes, vipers, f430's, 997's, they all come in stock. SHlT, the Z06/Viper ONLY comes in stick and that doesnt seem to hurt sales.
FYI, Ferrari JUST ANNOUNCED they will no longer make manuals.
And AWD IS350 would not effect GS sales as much as you think. The IS is more of a younger persons car, or smaller family car if anything. The GS is a bigger car, more family oriented. IDK where you guys get this BS from. The G37X doesnt hurt the sales of the M35X. The AUDI A4 doesnt hurt the A6. The AWD TL doesnt hurt the AWD RL and now the TSX is going to come in 6cyl. Is that going to hurt 6cyl sales of the TL? I doubt it.
We have seen the cannibalization of the G37/M35 and TSX/TL. Those brands are confused and don't have management that understands that each product must be truly different. Many people cross shops those cars and BUY the cheaper model over the more expensive one b/c the more expensive model didn't do a good enough job explaining why it costs more.
Manuals are not antiques. Maybe YOU feel that way but thats not everyone's opinion. Did I say they shouldnt make automatics? NO, I said there should be a manual option. I'm 25, I like manual transmissions in some cars and given the power of the IS350, I think it would be a blast in 6spd. 6spd, RWD and 300+HP is a GREAT platform and alot of fun.
Which is great but they are going away one by one sadly. Luckily there are cars that still offer it. Just don't expect Lexus to offer it much.
And I completely believe the 6spd is250 sells 1:20 vs the automatic. That was a complete WASTE. The main difference between the 250 and 350 is the 100hp. For the most part anyone looking to upgrade to a 350 is going to do so for more power. So if you want more power chances are your into cars to some extent and might prefer a manual. I think manual 350's would sell much better proportionately to autos then their 250 counterparts.
Speculative but possible. A good idea.
Seems people on here are more concerned with LFA stats and lambo doors then actually enjoying a car. A manual transmission offers alot of driver feel and is overall a great experience. I'd venture to say some of the people bad mouthing a manual IS dont even know how to drive stick.
Possible but who cares. Car companies are in business to make money. Most people get stuck in traffic and don't want the complications of a manual. Not to mention less MPG. Quite frankly if you want a TRUE driver experience you don't want a IS or a BMW.
You want a Lotus.
1. Do not start a post with "your nuts" (you're nuts). That is offensive.
#2 Manual tranny's are WAY less expensive then auto's too, IDK where your getting that idea. Theres no computers needed for manual tranny's, like automatics need. Manual transmission cars are usually cheaper.
This is not true as manuals are an option on many sports cars and yes you pay extra for it.
#3 I as well as a friend were both going to buy new is350's in Jan of 06 and didnt. You know why? Because of lack of manual transmission. We bought g35 coupes in 6spd instead. There are lots of people out there that still love to have a manual transmission.
There are lots of people that sat in a G35 and saw the interior of a 1985 Hyundai Excel. Read my post, people have different priorities.
#4 Dont compare our auto torque converter crap to a ferrari or really anything with a DSG/twin clutch. We have a regular Automatic. DSG is completely different. If we had a DSG, then maybe I'd understand. The ISF has an amazing tranny, dont get me wrong. But I'd be much happier with a standard 6spd and a 5k lower price tag. Lexus BARELY makes any ISF's to begin with and you think people wouldnt buy it in manual form?
I own a manual Lexus. Its not very good. I've driven every manual Lexus. They are not great. Look, there is simply no large market for manual cars, let alone Lexus ones. We are lucky the 250 has a manual offered.
#5 The real reason there is no manual in our cars is because Toyota doesnt have a tranny that they are confident with to support the power of these cars. If your going to bring up additional cost to make a manual, then why the hell would they even make the IS250 come in manual? Thats just a waste of time. They should have just kept it cheap, and contracted Getrag to make a 6spd trans for the 350 and ISF. It still would have been cheaper. BMW has 6spd's in their 335's, people still buy those.
B/C people EXCEPT BMW to sell a manual. They are more performance oriented. I think it would be GREAT to see an IS 350 manual. I also know all those people on the internet asking for it and saying they need it WON'T BUY IT. FYI close to 70% of Corvettes sold are AUTOMATICS and Porsche 911s in Europe will be PDK.
And of course the LFA isnt going to come manual. I wouldnt expect it to. Its a supercar, not a regular sports car. It needs to have the utmost technology. Any car 200k+ I dont expect to come 6spd, although it would be bad ***. But the regular sports cars, vettes, vipers, f430's, 997's, they all come in stock. SHlT, the Z06/Viper ONLY comes in stick and that doesnt seem to hurt sales.
FYI, Ferrari JUST ANNOUNCED they will no longer make manuals.
And AWD IS350 would not effect GS sales as much as you think. The IS is more of a younger persons car, or smaller family car if anything. The GS is a bigger car, more family oriented. IDK where you guys get this BS from. The G37X doesnt hurt the sales of the M35X. The AUDI A4 doesnt hurt the A6. The AWD TL doesnt hurt the AWD RL and now the TSX is going to come in 6cyl. Is that going to hurt 6cyl sales of the TL? I doubt it.
We have seen the cannibalization of the G37/M35 and TSX/TL. Those brands are confused and don't have management that understands that each product must be truly different. Many people cross shops those cars and BUY the cheaper model over the more expensive one b/c the more expensive model didn't do a good enough job explaining why it costs more.
Manuals are not antiques. Maybe YOU feel that way but thats not everyone's opinion. Did I say they shouldnt make automatics? NO, I said there should be a manual option. I'm 25, I like manual transmissions in some cars and given the power of the IS350, I think it would be a blast in 6spd. 6spd, RWD and 300+HP is a GREAT platform and alot of fun.
Which is great but they are going away one by one sadly. Luckily there are cars that still offer it. Just don't expect Lexus to offer it much.
And I completely believe the 6spd is250 sells 1:20 vs the automatic. That was a complete WASTE. The main difference between the 250 and 350 is the 100hp. For the most part anyone looking to upgrade to a 350 is going to do so for more power. So if you want more power chances are your into cars to some extent and might prefer a manual. I think manual 350's would sell much better proportionately to autos then their 250 counterparts.
Speculative but possible. A good idea.
Seems people on here are more concerned with LFA stats and lambo doors then actually enjoying a car. A manual transmission offers alot of driver feel and is overall a great experience. I'd venture to say some of the people bad mouthing a manual IS dont even know how to drive stick.
Possible but who cares. Car companies are in business to make money. Most people get stuck in traffic and don't want the complications of a manual. Not to mention less MPG. Quite frankly if you want a TRUE driver experience you don't want a IS or a BMW.
You want a Lotus.
12-13-09 | 10:48 PM
#521
Pole Position
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 289
Likes: 1
From: IL
In manual transmission's defense, pertaining to mpg, in most cars, mt gets better gas mileage.
It sucks how it's not true for the 2is. I can only speculate that it's because they couldn't design one specifically for this car since manuals are sold in low volume.
It sucks how it's not true for the 2is. I can only speculate that it's because they couldn't design one specifically for this car since manuals are sold in low volume.
12-13-09 | 10:55 PM
#522
i do agree with rpmsteve that i really wish my is350 came in standard... i miss stick so much 
be so much fun with 6 speed stick and 300+hp behind my foot
and generally isnt it CHEAPER to buy a car with standard rather then auto?
my previous cars they always wanted more $$ for the autos at the Stealership
be so much fun with 6 speed stick and 300+hp behind my foot
and generally isnt it CHEAPER to buy a car with standard rather then auto?
my previous cars they always wanted more $$ for the autos at the Stealership
12-13-09 | 10:59 PM
#523
Guest
Posts: n/a
The 911 Turbo is faster an an Automatic as an example.
12-13-09 | 11:04 PM
#524
^
G35 6MT has more power than G35 auto
and I definitely got better MPG with 6MT
so it all depends on what car you drive,,and how well you can drive the manual
and of course,,certain cars are built so that auto can outperform the manuals
G35 6MT has more power than G35 auto
and I definitely got better MPG with 6MT
so it all depends on what car you drive,,and how well you can drive the manual
and of course,,certain cars are built so that auto can outperform the manuals