Mark Levinson
#62
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
^^^^^^ For goodness sake, give it up! All your 'analysis' isn't worth a damn for the simple reason you can't equate dollars spent with sound quality. If you think you can spend the ML dollars privately and get equal, or better, sound than go ahead and do it. But stop the trolling.
Sound quality? It seems like you're the one who doesn't know what they're talking about.
the sound quality is increased in the ML. I never said it wasn't. But only because of two things: 100watts more power and two channel speakers(at the cost of rear woofers).
Buy aftermarket stuff and you get all of that.
How do you not understand that?
And how am I trolling? I thought this thread was a discussion on this very topic?
#63
#64
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Anyway, I'll check back later if there's anything else someone wants to add to the discussion. A few of you told me to "prove it," so I did the research for you. Hopefully, if this discussion continues, there can be responses that aren't just "Well I don't care, you're wrong."
Tell me why I'm wrong and I"ll listen.
![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#65
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the ML system comes with ML speakers, not Pioneer? In which case, it would be replacing ALL with better speakers, not just adding one center speaker.
#66
Pole Position
#67
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Okay, I will correct you, somewhat.
Originally it was brought up that the ML system coudn't be improved on or duplicated for less. The implication there is that the sound quality, not the name on the box, is in question.
Right?
The Pioneer equipment is highly regarded according to audio enthousiasts. ML is good, too. But neither are "elite."
Thus, it is a replacement of speakers(which I said... I never said that it was just adding one speaker), but only in terms of matching the performance of the ML ones. And, surprisingly, it's not that big of a technical difference.
So to achieve the ML system, you need more powerful speakers, two channel speakers, and you need to take out the woofers in the rear doors. You can do all of that via aftermarket.
#70
Pole Position
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Reyngel, I'll try to explain this as easily as I can.
![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
I'm looking for a brand new IS250.
I'm considering the Mark Levinson upgrade.
Should I do it? I mean, after all, it is $752!
Hmm, I'm thinking about it.
My good friend says "Dude!! don't do it, with the $752 you'll save not getting ML we can go aftermarket and make your stock system sound way better than ML"
I look at my friend and say "Really? for $752 you can make the standard system sound better than the ML? Really? I mean, really?
How?
#71
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
The only component in the entire ML system that is ML is the amp. Although the speakers are not actually manufactured by Mark Levinson, they are an upgrade from the standard system.
Reyngel, I'll try to explain this as easily as I can.
I'm looking for a brand new IS250.
I'm considering the Mark Levinson upgrade.
Should I do it? I mean, after all, it is $752!
Hmm, I'm thinking about it.
My good friend says "Dude!! don't do it, with the $752 you'll save not getting ML we can go aftermarket and make your stock system sound way better than ML"
I look at my friend and say "Really? for $752 you can make the standard system sound better than the ML? Really? I mean, really?
How?
Reyngel, I'll try to explain this as easily as I can.
![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
I'm looking for a brand new IS250.
I'm considering the Mark Levinson upgrade.
Should I do it? I mean, after all, it is $752!
Hmm, I'm thinking about it.
My good friend says "Dude!! don't do it, with the $752 you'll save not getting ML we can go aftermarket and make your stock system sound way better than ML"
I look at my friend and say "Really? for $752 you can make the standard system sound better than the ML? Really? I mean, really?
How?
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I'm not saying you shouldn't get it, or that Mark Levinson sucks.
As I first stated way back at the beginning, I just wanted to play devil's advocate.
The fact is,
-The stock system sounds great
-The ML system sounds great
-An aftermarket system could sound great
For $752, go for it. I would.
...just don't get it because people trick you into thinking that you can't have just as great of a system via the aftermarket.
Good luck!
#72
Pole Position
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I'm not saying you shouldn't get it, or that Mark Levinson sucks.
As I first stated way back at the beginning, I just wanted to play devil's advocate.
The fact is,
-The stock system sounds great
-The ML system sounds great
-An aftermarket system could sound great
For $752, go for it. I would.
...just don't get it because people trick you into thinking that you can't have just as great of a system via the aftermarket.
Good luck!
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
#73
Lexus Test Driver
iTrader: (1)
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Uh, that's my point. lol.
You can't get a credit. So that's why the "show me a $752 secondary option" is a ridiculous argument. People are saying that you can't get 14, 15 speakers, etc, for $752, so the ML upgrade is worth every penny. But it's an inappropriately inflated claim, because NO ONE is getting a 15 speaker system for $752. They're only paying for the difference between the two.
Do you actually think I meant you could tell Lexus to credit you? If so, then maybe that's the disconnect, heh.
You can't get a credit. So that's why the "show me a $752 secondary option" is a ridiculous argument. People are saying that you can't get 14, 15 speakers, etc, for $752, so the ML upgrade is worth every penny. But it's an inappropriately inflated claim, because NO ONE is getting a 15 speaker system for $752. They're only paying for the difference between the two.
Do you actually think I meant you could tell Lexus to credit you? If so, then maybe that's the disconnect, heh.
You cannot upgrade your stock Non-ML system via aftermarket and get something comparable to the ML system for $752. Even if you could sell your complete stock stereo for $500... I doubt you will beat the ML system for $1252
Thats the bottom line.
Yes, you can get better stuff. Will it cost you a lot more?..... yes. Which is why the ML is a good value. Probably the labor of installing this "Better than ML" stereo.. will cost $500+(wiring up amps, building speaker cups, boxes etc)
#74
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I'm just glad it's not a Bose system ![Cool](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif)
The ML system in the ISx50 is one of the finest Automotive System offered - right next to B&O [Audi], B&W [Jaguar XF], Lynn [Aston Martin], ect. The ML Reference in the LS460 is unbelievable and IMO is the best OEM system out there currently offered. These systems just speak for themselves.
+1
![Cool](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif)
The ML system in the ISx50 is one of the finest Automotive System offered - right next to B&O [Audi], B&W [Jaguar XF], Lynn [Aston Martin], ect. The ML Reference in the LS460 is unbelievable and IMO is the best OEM system out there currently offered. These systems just speak for themselves.
+1
![Cool](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif)
Last edited by MLevinson; 03-27-08 at 01:50 PM.
#75
Lexus Test Driver
iTrader: (1)
![Default](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Okay, look... you're just not understanding how it works.
And I didn't want to go do all this research, but whatever... here:
First off, to measure whether the value of the ML upgrade is a bargain in terms of monetary value, one must first calculate the worth of the stock system. Next, one must calculate the value of the ML system. And finally, one must subtract the value of the stock system from the value of the ML system. If that number is greater than the cost of the ML upgrade, which I guess is $752, then the ML is indeed a bargain.
I do not know how much the stock system is technically worth. But okay, so, there are what, 13 speakers, including a main subwoofer? The stock system is, I believe close to 200 total watts of power. The stock system has two woofers, one in each rear door, that are absent in the ML system.
And the ML system is 14 speakers, including a main subwoofer, right? The ML system is close to 300 total watts of power. And while the ML system does not have a third woofer speaker in each of the rear doors like stock system, it does have channel speakers, one in the front and two on the back deck. This is what makes the "surround sound." It has nothing to do with the type of speakers, but rather the placement of them.
So what exactly are you paying for?
If you opt to get the ML option, you end up paying for a few things:
-One additional center channel speaker
-Two rear deck speakers, BUT, at a loss of the two woofer speakers that are found in the stock system's rear doors
-100 watts of total additional power
-Installation(done at the factory, technically free to you)
-4 year warranty(again, technically free to you since it's part of the car as a whole)
And that's it.
You're not getting a DVD changer, as a few people have claimed in this thread. For that, you need to have the NAV package, which is an additional $3,000. So you're stuck with the exact same CD changer that the stock steup has.
Okay, so how is the worth calculated?
Well, let's first look at what you're paying for when you get the ML upgrade.
-One additional 2.6" center speaker, 25watts
Based on a quick check on an audio enthousiast forum, here is a Pioneer TS-CX7, with more than twice the power of the ML center channel speaker, for $74:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...r+TS-CX7.html#
-Two rear deck 2.6" speakers, 25watts each
Here's a pair of ones I found people recommending, $54:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...TR350-CXi.html
-100 watts of total additional power
You can't technically buy watts, obviously. So the way you figure out the value of this is by approximating the value of the stock speakers, then approximate the value of ML's speakers, and then go from there.
The stock IS system has four 1" tweeters, 25watts each. The ML system also has four 1" tweeters, but at only 20watts each. So the power of the tweeters is actually LESS than the stock system. So by adding the ML upgrade, you pay for less power in the tweeters(will be made up elsewhere, though). But, just to make things easier, let's GIVE the ML system's tweeters the extra power that the stock's tweeters have and call it even. Okay? This cancels it out from the total worth.
The stock IS system has four 2.6" midrange speakers, 21watts each. The ML system also has four midrange speakers, but they're each 25watts each, and two of the four(rear doors) are 4" instead of the 2.6".
Here is a pair of 4" Pioneers for $29:......
And I didn't want to go do all this research, but whatever... here:
First off, to measure whether the value of the ML upgrade is a bargain in terms of monetary value, one must first calculate the worth of the stock system. Next, one must calculate the value of the ML system. And finally, one must subtract the value of the stock system from the value of the ML system. If that number is greater than the cost of the ML upgrade, which I guess is $752, then the ML is indeed a bargain.
I do not know how much the stock system is technically worth. But okay, so, there are what, 13 speakers, including a main subwoofer? The stock system is, I believe close to 200 total watts of power. The stock system has two woofers, one in each rear door, that are absent in the ML system.
And the ML system is 14 speakers, including a main subwoofer, right? The ML system is close to 300 total watts of power. And while the ML system does not have a third woofer speaker in each of the rear doors like stock system, it does have channel speakers, one in the front and two on the back deck. This is what makes the "surround sound." It has nothing to do with the type of speakers, but rather the placement of them.
So what exactly are you paying for?
If you opt to get the ML option, you end up paying for a few things:
-One additional center channel speaker
-Two rear deck speakers, BUT, at a loss of the two woofer speakers that are found in the stock system's rear doors
-100 watts of total additional power
-Installation(done at the factory, technically free to you)
-4 year warranty(again, technically free to you since it's part of the car as a whole)
And that's it.
You're not getting a DVD changer, as a few people have claimed in this thread. For that, you need to have the NAV package, which is an additional $3,000. So you're stuck with the exact same CD changer that the stock steup has.
Okay, so how is the worth calculated?
Well, let's first look at what you're paying for when you get the ML upgrade.
-One additional 2.6" center speaker, 25watts
Based on a quick check on an audio enthousiast forum, here is a Pioneer TS-CX7, with more than twice the power of the ML center channel speaker, for $74:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...r+TS-CX7.html#
-Two rear deck 2.6" speakers, 25watts each
Here's a pair of ones I found people recommending, $54:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...TR350-CXi.html
-100 watts of total additional power
You can't technically buy watts, obviously. So the way you figure out the value of this is by approximating the value of the stock speakers, then approximate the value of ML's speakers, and then go from there.
The stock IS system has four 1" tweeters, 25watts each. The ML system also has four 1" tweeters, but at only 20watts each. So the power of the tweeters is actually LESS than the stock system. So by adding the ML upgrade, you pay for less power in the tweeters(will be made up elsewhere, though). But, just to make things easier, let's GIVE the ML system's tweeters the extra power that the stock's tweeters have and call it even. Okay? This cancels it out from the total worth.
The stock IS system has four 2.6" midrange speakers, 21watts each. The ML system also has four midrange speakers, but they're each 25watts each, and two of the four(rear doors) are 4" instead of the 2.6".
Here is a pair of 4" Pioneers for $29:......
1) just glancing through your post... I see several ridiculous statements. "You are paying for an extra speaker and Only 100watts more of power?" Do you realize that 100watts more is a 50% increase in power. You put that down as $0 in cost.
2) you say the non-ml speaker is better based on power rating alone. Nice, thats why the awesome $300 HTIB 1000 watt sony DE system is better than a $600 300 watt Harman Kardon amp.
3) then you continue to quantify quality by the manufacturers power rating?
4) You say buy a new sub and then dont power it?
5) you put a mismash of speakers together and expect them to sound tonally balanced?
Buy that exact system. put it in your car, and see if it sounds even close to the OE stock stereo. My guess is it will sound worse.
-Edit- Sorry if I sound harsh. but everything you stated in the above post is just... plain wrong.
Last edited by tqlla3k; 03-27-08 at 02:23 PM.