Mark Levinson
03-27-08, 02:05 PM
#76
Yeah, your "aftermarket" alternative demonstrates a gross ignorance of anything audio.
You forgot an amp for example. One that'll drive all 14 speakers properly, since the stock lexus amp won't. That'll cost a lot more than anything else you listed.
You also seem to think the watt rating of a speaker determines its quality.
Seriously, there was so much wrong with your alternative I'm not even sure where to begin or why I'd bother. You're wrong. Massively. You don't even know what you're talking about.
You forgot an amp for example. One that'll drive all 14 speakers properly, since the stock lexus amp won't. That'll cost a lot more than anything else you listed.
You also seem to think the watt rating of a speaker determines its quality.
Seriously, there was so much wrong with your alternative I'm not even sure where to begin or why I'd bother. You're wrong. Massively. You don't even know what you're talking about.
03-27-08, 02:08 PM
#77
www.marklevinsonlexus.com
just a few snippets from the website:
- discrete 5.1 system (reproduced by 7.1 channel surround speaker architecture)
- 14 speakers, 10 channels
- one up front and center, 2x three-piece in the front doors, 2x two-piece in the rear doors, 2x one piece in the rear decklid, 1x 8" inverted sub
- ML3-10 digital signal processor/power amplifier
- ML3 hardware highlights: 24-bit ADC and DAC, triple DSP farm
- wide format compatibility (2 channel stereo, 2 channel surround, dolby digital 5.1, DTS 5.1 from CD, CD-R, DVD-Video, DVD-Audio)
- proprietary metal cone midrange and tweeter transducers
not to mention the in-dash six-disc DVD changer.
now, i may or may not know what all that means, but i have my reservations that you can actually duplicate that type of a set-up in an aftermarket system for, let's say, $1,500, and still get the same aural quality...
actually, really, try it. i'm curious as to what $1500 for an aftermarket sound system that's perfectly integrated w/ my nav system can buy me.
just a few snippets from the website:
- discrete 5.1 system (reproduced by 7.1 channel surround speaker architecture)
- 14 speakers, 10 channels
- one up front and center, 2x three-piece in the front doors, 2x two-piece in the rear doors, 2x one piece in the rear decklid, 1x 8" inverted sub
- ML3-10 digital signal processor/power amplifier
- ML3 hardware highlights: 24-bit ADC and DAC, triple DSP farm
- wide format compatibility (2 channel stereo, 2 channel surround, dolby digital 5.1, DTS 5.1 from CD, CD-R, DVD-Video, DVD-Audio)
- proprietary metal cone midrange and tweeter transducers
not to mention the in-dash six-disc DVD changer.
now, i may or may not know what all that means, but i have my reservations that you can actually duplicate that type of a set-up in an aftermarket system for, let's say, $1,500, and still get the same aural quality...
actually, really, try it. i'm curious as to what $1500 for an aftermarket sound system that's perfectly integrated w/ my nav system can buy me.
03-27-08, 08:05 PM
#78
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1) just glancing through your post... I see several ridiculous statements. "You are paying for an extra speaker and Only 100watts more of power?" Do you realize that 100watts more is a 50% increase in power. You put that down as $0 in cost.
2) you say the non-ml speaker is better based on power rating alone. Nice, thats why the awesome $300 HTIB 1000 watt sony DE system is better than a $600 300 watt Harman Kardon amp.
3) then you continue to quantify quality by the manufacturers power rating?
4) You say buy a new sub and then dont power it?
5) you put a mismash of speakers together and expect them to sound tonally balanced?
Buy that exact system. put it in your car, and see if it sounds even close to the OE stock stereo. My guess is it will sound worse.
-Edit- Sorry if I sound harsh. but everything you stated in the above post is just... plain wrong.
2) you say the non-ml speaker is better based on power rating alone. Nice, thats why the awesome $300 HTIB 1000 watt sony DE system is better than a $600 300 watt Harman Kardon amp.
3) then you continue to quantify quality by the manufacturers power rating?
4) You say buy a new sub and then dont power it?
5) you put a mismash of speakers together and expect them to sound tonally balanced?
Buy that exact system. put it in your car, and see if it sounds even close to the OE stock stereo. My guess is it will sound worse.
-Edit- Sorry if I sound harsh. but everything you stated in the above post is just... plain wrong.
All you proved was that you didn't read my post very well.
-Where did I say the extra 100 watts was $0 in cost? lol. I spent an hour asking around on audio forums about stuff so that I could type up all of that stuff regarding the purchasing of other speakers to equate the power. I even put specific prices. How did you miss all of that? Try again.
-I never said that the aftermarket stuff was better solely because of power. Show me where I said that. Wrong again.
-Buy a new sub, yes. Didn't show how to power it? What are you talking about? I didn't say ADD a second sub. I said replace it.
-According to the "mismatch", that was all given to me by people on an audio community. I'll admit that I'm taking their word for it. But, according to that forum, which is solely existing to debate this kind of stuff, a lot of them are running that equipment, and it sounds great. Would I get it? No. But I also don't need the ML system.
-You're aruging that I don't know what I'm talking about, and then you make a claim like "I bet if you used that system it would sound worse than the stock system." What exactly are you basing that on? My guess is nothing.
So, if anything is just "plain wrong," it's 90% of your post, seeing as how you totally misread, or didn't read well.
03-27-08, 08:17 PM
#79
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Yeah, your "aftermarket" alternative demonstrates a gross ignorance of anything audio.
You forgot an amp for example. One that'll drive all 14 speakers properly, since the stock lexus amp won't. That'll cost a lot more than anything else you listed.
You also seem to think the watt rating of a speaker determines its quality.
Seriously, there was so much wrong with your alternative I'm not even sure where to begin or why I'd bother. You're wrong. Massively. You don't even know what you're talking about.
You forgot an amp for example. One that'll drive all 14 speakers properly, since the stock lexus amp won't. That'll cost a lot more than anything else you listed.
You also seem to think the watt rating of a speaker determines its quality.
Seriously, there was so much wrong with your alternative I'm not even sure where to begin or why I'd bother. You're wrong. Massively. You don't even know what you're talking about.
First of all, you CAN use the stock amp. People do it ALL the time. Is it as good as if you had shopped around for a new amp to better fit the system? No. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the system likewise suffers.
Where did I say the watt rating determines its quality? I just merely searched audio forums and asked what stuff people were liking in their cars that was reasonably priced. That's the stuff that was highly recommended. From there, I just did a quick Google search for a website that sold that stuff so I could throw up random numbers. My assessment of the quality was based solely on other people's impressions of the Pioneer gear. As I ALREADY stated, Pioneer isn't elite. But neither is Mark Levinson. Is ML good quality? Definitely. But so is some of Pioneer's gear. And the gear that was recommended just happened to be more powerful, IN ADDITION to getting good reviews. What's to disagree with that?
I think you seem to think I'm saying that Mark Levinson is crap and not worth the extra money. I never said that. What I did say, though, was that ML is good stuff. I also said aftermarket stuff CAN be equally good, too. And it can be had at a low price.
Think about this:
If it really takes $1,500 extra in aftermarket equipment to produce what the ML produces, and ML costs $752, then Lexus is seriously losing money on each ML-equipped model. And it's funny how that's the ONE option that would then be overpriced. Heh.
The fact is, it's not true. ML's quality can be had for $752 or less. If it couldn't then EVERYONE driving other makes and models would be buying up ML parts from Lexus dealerships to put in their own cars, because it's the steal of the century!
One last time: ML's stuff is great. But alternatives can be great, too, at the same cost, even less.
03-27-08, 08:18 PM
#80
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www.marklevinsonlexus.com
just a few snippets from the website:
- discrete 5.1 system (reproduced by 7.1 channel surround speaker architecture)
- 14 speakers, 10 channels
- one up front and center, 2x three-piece in the front doors, 2x two-piece in the rear doors, 2x one piece in the rear decklid, 1x 8" inverted sub
- ML3-10 digital signal processor/power amplifier
- ML3 hardware highlights: 24-bit ADC and DAC, triple DSP farm
- wide format compatibility (2 channel stereo, 2 channel surround, dolby digital 5.1, DTS 5.1 from CD, CD-R, DVD-Video, DVD-Audio)
- proprietary metal cone midrange and tweeter transducers
not to mention the in-dash six-disc DVD changer.
now, i may or may not know what all that means, but i have my reservations that you can actually duplicate that type of a set-up in an aftermarket system for, let's say, $1,500, and still get the same aural quality...
actually, really, try it. i'm curious as to what $1500 for an aftermarket sound system that's perfectly integrated w/ my nav system can buy me.
just a few snippets from the website:
- discrete 5.1 system (reproduced by 7.1 channel surround speaker architecture)
- 14 speakers, 10 channels
- one up front and center, 2x three-piece in the front doors, 2x two-piece in the rear doors, 2x one piece in the rear decklid, 1x 8" inverted sub
- ML3-10 digital signal processor/power amplifier
- ML3 hardware highlights: 24-bit ADC and DAC, triple DSP farm
- wide format compatibility (2 channel stereo, 2 channel surround, dolby digital 5.1, DTS 5.1 from CD, CD-R, DVD-Video, DVD-Audio)
- proprietary metal cone midrange and tweeter transducers
not to mention the in-dash six-disc DVD changer.
now, i may or may not know what all that means, but i have my reservations that you can actually duplicate that type of a set-up in an aftermarket system for, let's say, $1,500, and still get the same aural quality...
actually, really, try it. i'm curious as to what $1500 for an aftermarket sound system that's perfectly integrated w/ my nav system can buy me.
You might want to do more research. The ML system does NOT come with a disc DVD changer. You only get that if you get Nav, and that's $3,000 on top of the $752 you're already paying.
03-27-08, 08:23 PM
#81
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Anyway, I think I'm done with all of this. All car enthusiasts have these very same... debates, all the time. ClubRSX, My.IS, MBworld, etc, etc... they've all seen it, and nothing ever gets agreed upon. 
No sense going back and forth. But I respect all of your opinions.
To the original inquiry: just get ML. It's good.
No sense going back and forth. But I respect all of your opinions.To the original inquiry: just get ML. It's good.
03-27-08, 09:02 PM
#82
All you proved was that you didn't read my post very well.
-Where did I say the extra 100 watts was $0 in cost? lol. I spent an hour asking around on audio forums about stuff so that I could type up all of that stuff regarding the purchasing of other speakers to equate the power. I even put specific prices. How did you miss all of that? Try again.
-I never said that the aftermarket stuff was better solely because of power. Show me where I said that. Wrong again.
-Buy a new sub, yes. Didn't show how to power it? What are you talking about? I didn't say ADD a second sub. I said replace it.
-According to the "mismatch", that was all given to me by people on an audio community. I'll admit that I'm taking their word for it. But, according to that forum, which is solely existing to debate this kind of stuff, a lot of them are running that equipment, and it sounds great. Would I get it? No. But I also don't need the ML system.
-You're aruging that I don't know what I'm talking about, and then you make a claim like "I bet if you used that system it would sound worse than the stock system." What exactly are you basing that on? My guess is nothing.
So, if anything is just "plain wrong," it's 90% of your post, seeing as how you totally misread, or didn't read well.
-Where did I say the extra 100 watts was $0 in cost? lol. I spent an hour asking around on audio forums about stuff so that I could type up all of that stuff regarding the purchasing of other speakers to equate the power. I even put specific prices. How did you miss all of that? Try again.
-I never said that the aftermarket stuff was better solely because of power. Show me where I said that. Wrong again.
-Buy a new sub, yes. Didn't show how to power it? What are you talking about? I didn't say ADD a second sub. I said replace it.
-According to the "mismatch", that was all given to me by people on an audio community. I'll admit that I'm taking their word for it. But, according to that forum, which is solely existing to debate this kind of stuff, a lot of them are running that equipment, and it sounds great. Would I get it? No. But I also don't need the ML system.
-You're aruging that I don't know what I'm talking about, and then you make a claim like "I bet if you used that system it would sound worse than the stock system." What exactly are you basing that on? My guess is nothing.
So, if anything is just "plain wrong," it's 90% of your post, seeing as how you totally misread, or didn't read well.
1)
One additional 2.6" center speaker, 25watts
Based on a quick check on an audio enthousiast forum, here is a Pioneer TS-CX7, with more than twice the power of the ML center channel speaker, for $74:
-Two rear deck 2.6" speakers, 25watts each
Here's a pair of ones I found people recommending, $54:
-100 watts of total additional power
You can't technically buy watts, obviously. So the way you figure out the value of this is by approximating the value of the stock speakers, then approximate the value of ML's speakers, and then go from there.
The stock IS system has four 1" tweeters, 25watts each. The ML system also has four 1" tweeters, but at only 20watts each. So the power of the tweeters is actually LESS than the stock system. So by adding the ML upgrade, you pay for less power in the tweeters(will be made up elsewhere, though). But, just to make things easier, let's GIVE the ML system's tweeters the extra power that the stock's tweeters have and call it even. Okay? This cancels it out from the total worth.
Based on a quick check on an audio enthousiast forum, here is a Pioneer TS-CX7, with more than twice the power of the ML center channel speaker, for $74:
-Two rear deck 2.6" speakers, 25watts each
Here's a pair of ones I found people recommending, $54:
-100 watts of total additional power
You can't technically buy watts, obviously. So the way you figure out the value of this is by approximating the value of the stock speakers, then approximate the value of ML's speakers, and then go from there.
The stock IS system has four 1" tweeters, 25watts each. The ML system also has four 1" tweeters, but at only 20watts each. So the power of the tweeters is actually LESS than the stock system. So by adding the ML upgrade, you pay for less power in the tweeters(will be made up elsewhere, though). But, just to make things easier, let's GIVE the ML system's tweeters the extra power that the stock's tweeters have and call it even. Okay? This cancels it out from the total worth.
The rating you are using from the ML system is the power allocated by the ML amp to the speaker.
3) you want to hook up a heavy sub to the stock amp... and you think it will power it properly?
4) A mismash of speakers will not be tonally balanced. IE, the speakers will um... sound different, they wont match. Speakers sounding similar... is a good thing.
5) Hmmm, my assumption is based on the fact that you have a mishmash of speakers, which are all powered by the stock amp, and a Subwoofer that is severly underpowered by the stock amp. Anyone who has any clue about audio would look at your suggested configuration and say WTH.
You are wrong. No amount of arguing will change that.
Last edited by tqlla3k; 03-27-08 at 09:06 PM.
03-27-08, 10:08 PM
#83
Lexus Test Driver
I have the ML in my IS-F and love it! I do have to say I was still impressed with my IS350's non-ML system as well. It's one of those things where if you're happy with it, don't listen to the upgraded version. I guess that goes the same with spending money on bigger engines and power. As soon as you drive the faster one, it's hard to go back. Sometimes I think that's my mistake... hehehe
03-27-08, 10:37 PM
#84
reyngel please dont misunderstand me, I am not trying to be a jerk. but you are giving out bad advice based on bad information
I will give you some tips.
1) Power rating does not mean anything as far as how a component will sound. It just means it can play louder
2) Speakers should be harmonically the same, or similar. IE, you want all your speakers to sound similar. This helps with creating a wider soundstage. Also, in surround mode, you dont want different speakers because music will sound different here and there. Bright means that speakers are harsher, Neutral means no coloration of the sound is added, Warm means that speakers are less harsh. What you like is up to you. Usually, neutral is considered better.
3) the power rating on speakers is based on how much power the speaker is designed to handle. It does not add power. Though, a more sensitive speaker will be louder than a less sensitive one
4) A sub needs to be powered by a good amp. I believe it is because Aftermarket Subs are stiff and heavy. It takes more to move them. (I might be wrong as to why, someone else can correct me, but yes, you should use an aftermarket amp)
5) Amplifier. Power ratings lie. They are always goofing with THD and frequency response to get a higher wattage number. If the rated power is at more than .1%, then I would worry about the number they gave you.
6) you have to worry about speaker depths and mounting, as well as cables and setting up a good soundstage for imaging. Professional install will be a lot more than $100
I will give you some tips.
1) Power rating does not mean anything as far as how a component will sound. It just means it can play louder
2) Speakers should be harmonically the same, or similar. IE, you want all your speakers to sound similar. This helps with creating a wider soundstage. Also, in surround mode, you dont want different speakers because music will sound different here and there. Bright means that speakers are harsher, Neutral means no coloration of the sound is added, Warm means that speakers are less harsh. What you like is up to you. Usually, neutral is considered better.
3) the power rating on speakers is based on how much power the speaker is designed to handle. It does not add power. Though, a more sensitive speaker will be louder than a less sensitive one
4) A sub needs to be powered by a good amp. I believe it is because Aftermarket Subs are stiff and heavy. It takes more to move them. (I might be wrong as to why, someone else can correct me, but yes, you should use an aftermarket amp)
5) Amplifier. Power ratings lie. They are always goofing with THD and frequency response to get a higher wattage number. If the rated power is at more than .1%, then I would worry about the number they gave you.
6) you have to worry about speaker depths and mounting, as well as cables and setting up a good soundstage for imaging. Professional install will be a lot more than $100
03-27-08, 10:43 PM
#85
Mark Levinson 14-speaker 300-watt at less than 0.1% THD, 20-20,000 Hz [8] Premium Surround Sound Audio System [9] with 7.1 architecture and in-dash, single-feed, six-disc DVD/CD auto-changer featuring DVD-audio and DVD-video playback
you know, i was impressed with your line of thinking... at least until now. i think you need to do YOUR research.
03-28-08, 05:11 AM
#86
Pole Position
straight from the lexus website:
now, you can't get ML audio w/out getting the nav, BUT if the website is of any indication you still can get the DVD changer w/out nav - if you custom order it.
you know, i was impressed with your line of thinking... at least until now. i think you need to do YOUR research.
now, you can't get ML audio w/out getting the nav, BUT if the website is of any indication you still can get the DVD changer w/out nav - if you custom order it.
you know, i was impressed with your line of thinking... at least until now. i think you need to do YOUR research.
Also keep in mind that DVD-A is not video. DVD-A is a high resolution, multichannel, music format only. Many people get DVD (video) and DVD-A confused.
03-28-08, 05:16 AM
#87
straight from the lexus website:
now, you can't get ML audio w/out getting the nav, BUT if the website is of any indication you still can get the DVD changer w/out nav - if you custom order it.
you know, i was impressed with your line of thinking... at least until now. i think you need to do YOUR research.
now, you can't get ML audio w/out getting the nav, BUT if the website is of any indication you still can get the DVD changer w/out nav - if you custom order it.
you know, i was impressed with your line of thinking... at least until now. i think you need to do YOUR research.
If you order ML without nav you get the complete ML audio system. Minus the DVD changer. You just get a CD changer. So no DVD, regardless of if you mean DVD video or DVD-A.
The reason they no longer list the ML option by itself on lexus.com is because I pointed this out to Lexus and got a $940 refund from them because of it.
If you want the DVD changer you -must- get ML with Nav.
About everything -else- though Reyngel remains completely wrong though
I think it'd be hillarious to see him try what he suggests though and then try to figure out why some of his speakers produce no sound at all (since there's no amp to hook them to, and the factory one doesn't have enough channels to power added speakers), some of his speakers fail after a while because they're underpowered on the factory amp, and the rest all sound like crap because he's miss-mashed a bunch of assorted parts together having no idea what he was doing.
03-28-08, 07:13 AM
#88
Lexus Fanatic
IMO..... I wish I had the ML upgrade. i had to simply buy what was on the lot and I am very happy with my vehicle, don't get me wrong. I had a great Bose system in my Infiniti several years ago. I was one of those guys in high school who ripped out the factory sound asap with buddies and re-wired everything. Then when I bought my first Altima, I was so impressed with the "Active Sound System" which implemented the external amp driven quality an integrated EQ. I was very impressed with now draw off the head unit for not running highs/fronts via an amp (LOL---poor HS student). I am for upgraded sound because I don't feel like tearing into a new car (especially a Lexus) to install aftermarket. I have to say, I am very impressed by the factory Pioneer in my gen 1 and gen 2. Most car companies have pretty good factory sound in Luxary cars that have a nice balanced component external amp driven set-up. Th ES350 has a *******Y sound system that has no bass and is not exciting. Many customers have complained to lexus about the ES. I even think their was a thread on this several months ago. All in all, upgraded sound is a mtter of opinion. I am all for the ML. The LS460 I drove at the Taste of Lexus had an ML system that would make George Lucas cream his jeans. My point to all of this is simply, I like Icetea!!!
03-28-08, 07:57 AM
#89
the ML system in the LS is a reference system. it's like THE system by which all other lexus factory upgrade sound systems are judged by...
i stand corrected; from the lexus and the mark levinson lexus websites i thought that the DVD changer comes standard w/ the ML upgrade, regardless of whether you have nav or not.
i stand corrected; from the lexus and the mark levinson lexus websites i thought that the DVD changer comes standard w/ the ML upgrade, regardless of whether you have nav or not.
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