Why doesn't Lexus offer manual transmission in the IS350?
04-14-09, 04:35 AM
#46
Driving 2 extra wheels, besides hundreds of extra lbs slowing the car, is more parasitic drivetrain loss. That's basic physics.
AWD doesn't improve handling -at all- (it makes it worse, due to extra weight).
AWD improves -traction-
Which is a very, very different thing.
One mud/ice/gravel one can lead to the other- less so on a paved surface.
And since the typical IS350 driver is going to spend about infinity more time in normal street driving on paved roads (where AWD will add weight, parasitic loss, and inferior gas mileage) versus rally racing (where the traction will get them through muddy areas faster), RWD is clearly the superior choice.
But as noted, the topic is manual, so....
Also to tie up some loose ends yes they have Auto trannys that shift faster than manual and they have some that get better gas mileage and they have some that out last their manual counter part. However the automatic on the IS350 does none of these things (except for outlast because a manual transmission on a 300hp car does take a beating).
I agree a more advanced auto-shifting transmission (like the dual clutch setup on the GT-R or the PDK on the porsche or the uber-fast auto on the IS-F) would be even better, but it'd also add considerably to the price... and none of those add a clutch pedal while outperforming a manual in every way.
Last edited by Kurtz; 04-14-09 at 05:08 AM.
04-14-09, 07:20 AM
#47
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I have no clue as to how the IS250 works, but I HIGHLY doubt the Auto tranny out perform the MT, considering Car and Driver's 7.5 0-60 (almost half a sec faster than lexus says) was performed with the MT. As far as the IS350s AUto transmission goes, I think we all can agree it is sluggish and very slow to shift.
AWD increases traction which inturn increases handling. I agree that the added weight, friction, ect can hinder performance in the 1/4 mile but on a touring track it is a fact you can handle an AWD easier and more precise at higher speeds. I have no clue why you do not think that is true.
AWD increases traction which inturn increases handling. I agree that the added weight, friction, ect can hinder performance in the 1/4 mile but on a touring track it is a fact you can handle an AWD easier and more precise at higher speeds. I have no clue why you do not think that is true.
04-14-09, 07:29 AM
#48
I have no clue as to how the IS250 works, but I HIGHLY doubt the Auto tranny out perform the MT, considering Car and Driver's 7.5 0-60 (almost half a sec faster than lexus says) was performed with the MT. As far as the IS350s AUto transmission goes, I think we all can agree it is sluggish and very slow to shift.
But here's 7.4 seconds for an automatic IS250 from Road and Track-
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=5
Even funnier- that's the AWD one. The RWD one would be faster 0-60 since it's not traction limited, and is pushing a couple hundred pounds less, with less drivetrain loss from only driving 2 wheels, not 4.
Sounds like the manual is -slower-
Probably because computers shift better and faster than people.
In the snow? Sure.
On a paved road in normal driving? Not at all. More traction doesn't improve handling unless the car is already traction-limited in some way, which for 99% of normal driving on paved roads, the 2IS isn't.
The added weight and drivetrain loss of AWD -does- hurt overall performance -and- mileage though, 100% of the time.
Pretty bad trade to make.
Last edited by Kurtz; 04-14-09 at 07:33 AM.
04-14-09, 08:58 AM
#49
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We werent talking about normal driving we were talking about performance. You are right there is no reason for everyday driving for AWD. This does not however negate the fact that for high speed driving AWD offers better traction and more comfortable at high speeds. Dont believe me?? Try it. I have some (not a lot but some) driving experience on a track. It was way easier and more responsive than my RSX type S or the Mustang GT I drove.
04-14-09, 09:32 AM
#50
We werent talking about normal driving we were talking about performance. You are right there is no reason for everyday driving for AWD. This does not however negate the fact that for high speed driving AWD offers better traction and more comfortable at high speeds. Dont believe me?? Try it. I have some (not a lot but some) driving experience on a track. It was way easier and more responsive than my RSX type S or the Mustang GT I drove.
Almost 0 percent of Lexus customers are driving their IS350 on a circle track. They're driving it on the street. Hence street performance would seem the relevant type of performance to such people.
Where, as you seem to agree, AWD would be almost entirely a negative for the 350 since it would result in a slower, heavier, -and- less gas efficient car for a higher cost.
I've driven quite a few RWD cars in the mid-100 mph range BTW and never had much trouble.
04-15-09, 02:01 PM
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It was no big deal for Lexus to offer a manual transmission on the US IS250, because they already had one ready to go for other markets (Europe, etc.), where manuals are much more popular, and the IS350 is not sold at all.
Therefore, considerations of engineering a manual transmission for the IS350 would have to be based on projected sales in the USA, where manual transmissions are already unpopular, and becoming more so every day.
Therefore, considerations of engineering a manual transmission for the IS350 would have to be based on projected sales in the USA, where manual transmissions are already unpopular, and becoming more so every day.
04-15-09, 03:44 PM
#52
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We were discussing why Lexus doesn't offer a given feature.
Almost 0 percent of Lexus customers are driving their IS350 on a circle track. They're driving it on the street. Hence street performance would seem the relevant type of performance to such people.
Where, as you seem to agree, AWD would be almost entirely a negative for the 350 since it would result in a slower, heavier, -and- less gas efficient car for a higher cost.
I've driven quite a few RWD cars in the mid-100 mph range BTW and never had much trouble.
Almost 0 percent of Lexus customers are driving their IS350 on a circle track. They're driving it on the street. Hence street performance would seem the relevant type of performance to such people.
Where, as you seem to agree, AWD would be almost entirely a negative for the 350 since it would result in a slower, heavier, -and- less gas efficient car for a higher cost.
I've driven quite a few RWD cars in the mid-100 mph range BTW and never had much trouble.
04-15-09, 05:02 PM
#53
Careful Kurtz - proclaiming AWD to be a false god will get all the kids riled up because they've been told for years how much better and safer it is. Supporting the proclamation with logic and solid examples only increases the fury of the storm against you. Of course they'll all point to racing victories, but the reality is none of this has even the slightest thing to do with why the IS350 doesn't have a manual transmission. Even worse, those same kids who've been told there is some demonstrable magic to AWD have also been told real men change gears with a clutch and skill. Once again, nothing could be further from the truth, but hey, all the magazines say it's so, and you can read it anywhere on the Intarweb so it must be true!
04-15-09, 05:53 PM
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OK I dont understand what we are arguing about. first of all I totally agree that toyota is not going to waist money developing a clutch and MT to handle real power nor will they throw a half way decient automatic transmission like Infinity did with the g series. I know it is a tough pill to swallow but your 40K+ car is not the best car for performance. The fact is of all the cars I test drove, the lexus' AT was least responsive. I would venture to say my grandmothers Lincoln LS is more responsive. I know you all are going to be enraged but im not the only one who feels this way. In fact most every car magazine (however apparently some of you dont thing people who dedicate their lives to cars know what they are talking about) feel the same way about the lexus. I LOVE my lexus and that is why I bought the car, but there is much needed work to be done with their transmission. Also to note, I do not thing MT is infinately better than AT. Look at the GT-R and that will squash anyone who feels this way.
As far as AWD vs RWD goes, it seems that some of us are on different pages. It is a fact that AWD is heavier and gets worse gas mileage, so you all win. However, if you want the MOST effecient drive train FWD FTW (up to a horsepower limit) As far as performance goes (all around) the slighly lighter RWD car will win drag racing, BUT on a touring track or any curvy track AWD does out perform most of its RWD counterparts. I really do not know how else to prove it to closed minded people other than giving facts like race win percentages and my honest opinion with driving all three drivetrains on a track. I know that I drove 3 different cars and that makes a difference, but the AWD car was infinately easier to drive. If there were absolutely no advantage to AWD then why are so many top performance vehicles AWD?? Just food for thought.
OHH and I NEVER said I wanted AWD on my Lexus, I just KNOW it is a better touring performer.
Also I am very confident to say that the "increadibly awsome" AT on our IS350 is the same as....... your grandmothers xle camery. I am going to call toyota tomm to get the actual true part #s but it definately feels the same (with a diff comp).m Plz some one help if the know.
As far as AWD vs RWD goes, it seems that some of us are on different pages. It is a fact that AWD is heavier and gets worse gas mileage, so you all win. However, if you want the MOST effecient drive train FWD FTW (up to a horsepower limit) As far as performance goes (all around) the slighly lighter RWD car will win drag racing, BUT on a touring track or any curvy track AWD does out perform most of its RWD counterparts. I really do not know how else to prove it to closed minded people other than giving facts like race win percentages and my honest opinion with driving all three drivetrains on a track. I know that I drove 3 different cars and that makes a difference, but the AWD car was infinately easier to drive. If there were absolutely no advantage to AWD then why are so many top performance vehicles AWD?? Just food for thought.
OHH and I NEVER said I wanted AWD on my Lexus, I just KNOW it is a better touring performer.
Also I am very confident to say that the "increadibly awsome" AT on our IS350 is the same as....... your grandmothers xle camery. I am going to call toyota tomm to get the actual true part #s but it definately feels the same (with a diff comp).m Plz some one help if the know.
Last edited by pharrside; 04-15-09 at 06:01 PM. Reason: additional stuff
04-15-09, 06:26 PM
#56
OK I dont understand what we are arguing about. first of all I totally agree that toyota is not going to waist money developing a clutch and MT to handle real power nor will they throw a half way decient automatic transmission like Infinity did with the g series. I know it is a tough pill to swallow but your 40K+ car is not the best car for performance. The fact is of all the cars I test drove, the lexus' AT was least responsive. I would venture to say my grandmothers Lincoln LS is more responsive. I know you all are going to be enraged but im not the only one who feels this way. In fact most every car magazine (however apparently some of you dont thing people who dedicate their lives to cars know what they are talking about) feel the same way about the lexus.
Because every review of the IS350 universally praises the automatic as excellent-
Edmunds:
"The six-speed automatic is Mercedes-Benz-like in its ability to pick a proper gear, and when put in the "Power" mode the transmission downshifts readily and holds gears between corners, aiding corner entry speed with effective engine braking. The steering wheel paddles further add to the experience, though the paddles themselves feel a bit plasticky. We're still not happy about the lack of a manual tranny (you can get one in the IS 250), but this automatic makes the most of the situation."
"The transmission’s manual mode works well, allowing the driver to change gears with paddles behind the steering wheel, à la Formula 1. Although not as fast as manual-based transmissions like BMW’s SMG and Audi’s DSG, gear changes were quick and precise."
"The six-speed auto is a worthy partner; shifts are crisp without being harsh in Drive mode or when playing the paddles. Even though the power peaks relatively high in the rpm band, there's good torque available down low."
Also I am very confident to say that the "increadibly awsome" AT on our IS350 is the same as....... your grandmothers xle camery. I am going to call toyota tomm to get the actual true part #s but it definately feels the same (with a diff comp).m Plz some one help if the know.
Given the camry is FWD and the Lexus is RWD I can let you know you're wrong right now. Kinda like you were about "most every car magazine"
The IS350 transmission is the A760E...built by Aisin-Warner and used in the IS350 and GS350.
The Camry uses the U660E and the only Lexus it appears on is the Camry-twin ES350.
04-15-09, 08:16 PM
#57
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OK I dont understand what we are arguing about. first of all I totally agree that toyota is not going to waist money developing a clutch and MT to handle real power nor will they throw a half way decient automatic transmission like Infinity did with the g series. I know it is a tough pill to swallow but your 40K+ car is not the best car for performance. The fact is of all the cars I test drove, the lexus' AT was least responsive. I would venture to say my grandmothers Lincoln LS is more responsive. I know you all are going to be enraged but im not the only one who feels this way. In fact most every car magazine (however apparently some of you dont thing people who dedicate their lives to cars know what they are talking about) feel the same way about the lexus. I LOVE my lexus and that is why I bought the car, but there is much needed work to be done with their transmission. Also to note, I do not thing MT is infinately better than AT. Look at the GT-R and that will squash anyone who feels this way.
You really think magazine people "love cars" first? No they don't. They love selling magazines because it pays their paychecks. So magazine people will push whatever happens to be advertised on the opposing page because those advertisers pay their paychecks. There is scant integrity in the automotive journalist world especially at the top levels - C & D, MotorTrend, etc.. Besides, Kurtz already quoted them and showed where you missed the mark.
As far as AWD vs RWD goes, it seems that some of us are on different pages. It is a fact that AWD is heavier and gets worse gas mileage, so you all win. However, if you want the MOST effecient drive train FWD FTW (up to a horsepower limit) As far as performance goes (all around) the slighly lighter RWD car will win drag racing, BUT on a touring track or any curvy track AWD does out perform most of its RWD counterparts. I really do not know how else to prove it to closed minded people other than giving facts like race win percentages and my honest opinion with driving all three drivetrains on a track. I know that I drove 3 different cars and that makes a difference, but the AWD car was infinately easier to drive. If there were absolutely no advantage to AWD then why are so many top performance vehicles AWD?? Just food for thought.
Also I am very confident to say that the "increadibly awsome" AT on our IS350 is the same as....... your grandmothers xle camery. I am going to call toyota tomm to get the actual true part #s but it definately feels the same (with a diff comp).m Plz some one help if the know.
NOW - BACK to the subject!
04-15-09, 08:56 PM
#58
Oh really? I can get the GT3, GT3RS, or GT2 with PDK? Didn't think so.
and yet, the IS sells extremely well. Far better than the IS300 did, which offered a manual. The SC300 offered a manual for a while and sold so poorly they discontinued the option.
The clutch pedal is a relic of the past, and fewer and fewer people are buying them as they realize there's no objective reason for a car to have one anymore.
The Nissan GT-R seems to sell fine with only 2 pedals, and it spanks all the "performance" cars you guys have mentioned so far.
As I mentioned, want the fastest porsche? It'll have the PDK transmission, no clutch pedal.
Even for the brands that do still offer manuals, they sell few of them compared to autos.
The clutch pedal is a relic of the past, and fewer and fewer people are buying them as they realize there's no objective reason for a car to have one anymore.
The Nissan GT-R seems to sell fine with only 2 pedals, and it spanks all the "performance" cars you guys have mentioned so far.
As I mentioned, want the fastest porsche? It'll have the PDK transmission, no clutch pedal.
Even for the brands that do still offer manuals, they sell few of them compared to autos.
I like my third pedal. I enjoy driving with it. My G35 was stick. Both my first and current GTOs are stick. However, I completely understand and accept why Toyota/Lexus decided not to design or borrow a manual to put in the 350. People buy manuals out of desire, like myself, or financial need. However, to say that they are a "relic" is absolutely delusional. Case in point, Viper, Z06, ZR1, TVR and Lotus' entire lines, and, oh yeah, in 2008, 75.2% of cars in Western Europe were equipped with the "archaic" clutch and shifter manuals.
http://www.dctfacts.com/hmStory4a.asp
West European Light Vehicle Production
by Transmission Type
2002 2008 2014
AMT:1% 4.30% 5.50%
Automatic: 12% 16.10% 13.50%
CVT:0.50% 1.80% 1.30%
DCT:0% 2.60% 11.40%
Manual:86.60% 75.20% 68.30%
Grand total:100% 100% 100%
Source: CSM Worldwide
And that source is from a website promoting dual-clutch technology.
Last edited by GrandSedanFan; 04-15-09 at 09:01 PM.
04-16-09, 04:28 AM
#59
So you found -one- market in the world (and it's not the largest, or even the 2nd largest, or even the 3rd largest) where manuals still sell in any decent numbers, and even _there_ the % of cars with manuals is declining steadily and is projected to continue dropping into the future... and that somehow proves it's not a relic of the past that will be extinct in due course?
Doesn't that sorta prove the exact opposite?
And what are the numbers for manuals in the actual larger markets where most of the cars in the world are sold? (US, Japan, China, etc?)
My apologies on the porsche though, I should have written if you want the fastest 911 it won't have a 3rd pedal... the PDK model is faster and gets better mileage than the manual does. I expect it'll make its way into even the GTx models before long though as the few holdouts left come around to realizing the dinosaur of the clutch pedal does nothing but slow you down and hurt efficiency.
Oh, wait, my bad.... it already IS planned for the next GT3...
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...he-911/233008/
"We do know that the GT3 will get Porsche’s new seven-speed, dual-clutch transmission, officially known as Porsche Doppel Kupplung (PDK)."
So the only reason the GT3 doesn't have it yet is the current one is the old model. Hence it's only offering old tech like a clutch pedal. The new model fixes that problem by offering something modern and faster
So I was right after all, just a touch early since "offical" track times won't be published for a bit on the new model.
Doesn't that sorta prove the exact opposite?
And what are the numbers for manuals in the actual larger markets where most of the cars in the world are sold? (US, Japan, China, etc?)
My apologies on the porsche though, I should have written if you want the fastest 911 it won't have a 3rd pedal... the PDK model is faster and gets better mileage than the manual does. I expect it'll make its way into even the GTx models before long though as the few holdouts left come around to realizing the dinosaur of the clutch pedal does nothing but slow you down and hurt efficiency.
Oh, wait, my bad.... it already IS planned for the next GT3...
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...he-911/233008/
"We do know that the GT3 will get Porsche’s new seven-speed, dual-clutch transmission, officially known as Porsche Doppel Kupplung (PDK)."
So the only reason the GT3 doesn't have it yet is the current one is the old model. Hence it's only offering old tech like a clutch pedal. The new model fixes that problem by offering something modern and faster
So I was right after all, just a touch early since "offical" track times won't be published for a bit on the new model.
