Can I run with ECT Power mode continuosly?
08-19-12, 06:14 PM
#226
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Except that's not what it says.
It says if there's a solenoid malfunction at all... (insert the part you actually quoted)
It makes no mention, whatsoever, of only applying to AI-SHIFT or a specific ECT mode for that failure function.
All of the failure descriptions in fact are descriptions of what happens if a given item fails in any mode
Hence that quote means exactly the opposite of what you claim, since it's controlling pressure in all modes.
How about just one (from a Lexus/Toyota source actually talking about this model of car- anything from TIS would be extra great vs. a marketing brochure or something though) that states "When ECT-PWR is engaged on an ISx50 it changes the time it takes between shifts" Or even "in ECT-PWR mode the transmission line pressure is increased for quicker/firmer shifts versus other modes"
Which is what your original claim was after all.
Nearest I've seen you come so far was a quote from marketing copy from a middle-eastern website about a totally different model of car.
(by the same token marketing copy calls those paddles on the car "shifters" but they clearly aren't- and TIS is pretty clear about what they actually do and how)
If you have a copy of the manual for your brain handy I'd be happy to
Otherwise you'll just have to accept the weeks of testing I did on this when I was testing electronic throttle controllers.
You naturally are comfortable with a given amount of throttle response/acceleration from the car. If you're "comfortable" using X throttle on route A, and Y throttle on route B, and so on, that's what you've decided you prefer. If you preferred more/higher response you'd be pressing the pedal harder after all.
So what happens when the sensitivity of the gas pedal is turned up via the throttle controller is the car suddenly "feels" really quick because suddenly when you "give" it 10% gas the ECU is thinking you gave it 20%.
But you aren't really comfortable with 20% in the long run (otherwise you'd have already been driving that way)... so after a while your brain tunes it back out. It begins only pressing the pedal 5%, so that with the added value from the controller your ECU is back to only seeing 10%, and the car goes back to how it was before you turned the controller on.
That's why the controller is a fun toy to use a couple days at a time, but if you leave it on all the time you'll largely lose any benefit from it within a week or so because you'll subconsciously re-calibrate your own use of the gas pedal back to where you preferred it to begin with.
(I explain this in more detail, including the specific results I found with it, in my throttle controller review if you want to go find it and read it... but you'll see a similar "natural re-calibration" of gas pedal application if you go from you car to a significantly more or less powerful rental car for more than a few days, and then back again after.)
It says if there's a solenoid malfunction at all... (insert the part you actually quoted)
It makes no mention, whatsoever, of only applying to AI-SHIFT or a specific ECT mode for that failure function.
All of the failure descriptions in fact are descriptions of what happens if a given item fails in any mode
Hence that quote means exactly the opposite of what you claim, since it's controlling pressure in all modes.
How about just one (from a Lexus/Toyota source actually talking about this model of car- anything from TIS would be extra great vs. a marketing brochure or something though) that states "When ECT-PWR is engaged on an ISx50 it changes the time it takes between shifts" Or even "in ECT-PWR mode the transmission line pressure is increased for quicker/firmer shifts versus other modes"
Which is what your original claim was after all.
Nearest I've seen you come so far was a quote from marketing copy from a middle-eastern website about a totally different model of car.
(by the same token marketing copy calls those paddles on the car "shifters" but they clearly aren't- and TIS is pretty clear about what they actually do and how)
If you have a copy of the manual for your brain handy I'd be happy to
Otherwise you'll just have to accept the weeks of testing I did on this when I was testing electronic throttle controllers.
You naturally are comfortable with a given amount of throttle response/acceleration from the car. If you're "comfortable" using X throttle on route A, and Y throttle on route B, and so on, that's what you've decided you prefer. If you preferred more/higher response you'd be pressing the pedal harder after all.
So what happens when the sensitivity of the gas pedal is turned up via the throttle controller is the car suddenly "feels" really quick because suddenly when you "give" it 10% gas the ECU is thinking you gave it 20%.
But you aren't really comfortable with 20% in the long run (otherwise you'd have already been driving that way)... so after a while your brain tunes it back out. It begins only pressing the pedal 5%, so that with the added value from the controller your ECU is back to only seeing 10%, and the car goes back to how it was before you turned the controller on.
That's why the controller is a fun toy to use a couple days at a time, but if you leave it on all the time you'll largely lose any benefit from it within a week or so because you'll subconsciously re-calibrate your own use of the gas pedal back to where you preferred it to begin with.
(I explain this in more detail, including the specific results I found with it, in my throttle controller review if you want to go find it and read it... but you'll see a similar "natural re-calibration" of gas pedal application if you go from you car to a significantly more or less powerful rental car for more than a few days, and then back again after.)
Is that correct? or will you be so bold to argue withh someone that you haven't meet, never seen drive and know nothing about....and tell me, you know more about me, then I do....
It's true, I haven't found anything in a US Lexus technical publication....yet....but my FSM set should be here in a couple of days- I cant wait to go through the troubleshooting section to see what controls what. I can assure you, if I find anything, I'll let you know. I doubt I could find anything in the same manual that states the wheel on the front passengers side (US spec) turns clockwise while in a forward gear, but, it does.
But until then, you must be right. -about the car.....but not me.
08-19-12, 07:37 PM
#228
HMMMM...so if I purchssed it used from Newell Lexus (via a woman that lived near Atlanta) and she drove it like a grandma (I didn't meet her, maybe she was) and I didnt like the way it "drove" and I switched it to PWR and it's driven the same since, then your point is moot on how " I drive" and how it changes. Actually, it would have been how the woman that owned it before me drove. And hypothetically (up until now, not so hypothetically) I drive the crap of the car (only track events) and it as at the "limits" of what the car can handle, therefore nothing would ever change in the "learning". I'd only have to compare what it did when I got it to how it drives today.
Is that correct?
Is that correct?
You seem to be going on some weird tangent about the "learning" feature of the car.
I'm talking about the driver.
The two are different things.
Now if you mean you simply had it in PWR every since you owned it, and thus your brain has already/only calibrated how far you hit the gas based on PWR mode... that certainly a thing that is possible.
It's not really relevant to the discussion though... because another guy who "liked" the car accelerating in the exact way as you, who only ever drove in normal mode, would be giving it more gas in any identical situation to yours, resulting in the same end-result throttle input to the ECU... so if "amount of throttle result" is the only thing adding line pressure, his line pressure in NORMAL would be the same as yours in PWR under the same conditions, he'd just be doing it by having his foot a bit further down.
(since you're gonna have all this great FSM info by the way- if you can find any sort of mention, or even better a specific chart, of what throttle changes PWR makes to pedal input, that'd be awesome info... it's yet another topic many have speculated on without any real data)
Then meeting you or not won't really change my opinion, since there's certain ways in which human brains tend to work the same from one to the next.
I even explained it to you why your brain tends to tune throttle changes back out (not well enough apparently since you somehow starting bringing up previous owners despite that being wholly irrelevant). I'll try one more time though, using the kind of example I gave above-
Let's say there's driving route X and drivers A and B with identical ISx50s, and identical styles of driving.
Driver A is always in PWR mode (which we are presuming increases gas pedal sensitivity- such that without PWR mode pushing the gas say 8% opens the throttle 6%... but WITH PWR mode pushing the gas 8% opens the throttle 10%, and so on).
Driver B is always in NORMAL mode (see above for what that means to pedal input vs. throttle opening).
Now, to travel on route X in the style driver A likes, he has to give the car pedal at various points 1-6 of say:
5%, 10%, 25%, 100%, 45%, and 5%.
Given the "boost" POWER gives to pedal input the throttle ACTUALLY opens, say:
8%, 13%, 29%, 100%, 49%, and 8%.
With me so far?
Now, driver B likes the same style, and is on the same route, but in NORMAL. So to get the same style drive he has to give the car pedal at various points 1-6 of:
10%, 15%, 33%, 100%, 55%, and 10%
and he actually gets throttle openings of:
8%, 13%, 29%, 100%, 49%, and 8%.
So the 2 drivers applied the pedal differently, but got the same results.
Still with me I hope?
Ok...now... let's say driver B pushes the PWR button one day. But how he likes the car to drive didn't change.
First day he applies his normal pedal pressures of
10%, 15%, 33%, 100%, 55%, and 10%
But suddenly the car is accelerating more than he's comfortable with. It's sorta fun, in the driving like a maniac sense... but it's not how he really prefers it (if it were, he'd have just been hitting the pedal harder all this time, right?).
So over the course of maybe a week his brain will start to tune this back out, without much if any conscious effort... so that now he's giving pedal inputs just like driver A was... to get back to his same subjective driving feeling he likes.
That's why throttle controllers are fun toys for a few days at a time, but leaving em on all the time ends up with them being largely worthless... because the only thing it's really doing to the throttle is telling the ECU you pushed the gas more than you really did.
So likewise if you like how the car feels for condition X at 10% gas pedal, and you suddenly turn on PWR mode and now 10% is more than you like for condition X, you'll slowly learn to only hit the pedal say 6%, to get the same result as when you hit 10% in normal mode.
Thus you end up with roughly the same amount of throttle opening in either mode after a week or two of driving that way.
It's true, I haven't found anything in a US Lexus technical publication....yet....but my FSM set should be here in a couple of days- I cant wait to go through the troubleshooting section to see what controls what. I can assure you, if I find anything, I'll let you know.
If you find something that actually supports your original claim it would be important and valuable information and I'd be the first to thank you for finding it (and to my knowledge you'd be the first person in the 7+ years the car has been around, including dozens of people with TIS and FSM access) to find such information).
And if you don't (or find info specifically contradicting you) I hope you're likewise first to admit your original claim was without foundation.
08-19-12, 07:41 PM
#229
Not for nothing, but has nobody in this thread actually read the description of AI SHIFT and PWR mode direct from Lexus I've posted several times? it covers all this stuff... here it is yet again:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/5807368-post24.html
"AI-SHIFT control is only in effect with the shift lever in the D position, based on the accelerator and brake operation data. AI-SHIFT control will be cancelled when the driver selects the S mode"
08-19-12, 08:22 PM
#230
By measuring the width from the peaks to troughs in the Gernby post: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/3042656-post38.html does anyone think the shifts in PWR are a smidgen faster?
Last edited by Toymota; 08-20-12 at 09:18 AM. Reason: change anything to anyone
08-19-12, 09:01 PM
#231
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If you put it in S it turns off AI SHIFT entirely.
Not for nothing, but has nobody in this thread actually read the description of AI SHIFT and PWR mode direct from Lexus I've posted several times? it covers all this stuff... here it is yet again:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/5807368-post24.html
"AI-SHIFT control is only in effect with the shift lever in the D position, based on the accelerator and brake operation data. AI-SHIFT control will be cancelled when the driver selects the S mode"
Not for nothing, but has nobody in this thread actually read the description of AI SHIFT and PWR mode direct from Lexus I've posted several times? it covers all this stuff... here it is yet again:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/5807368-post24.html
"AI-SHIFT control is only in effect with the shift lever in the D position, based on the accelerator and brake operation data. AI-SHIFT control will be cancelled when the driver selects the S mode"
08-19-12, 09:08 PM
#232
By measuring the width from the peaks to troughs in the Gernby post: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/3042656-post38.html does anything think the shifts in PWR are a smidgen faster?
lets say the shift ~begins~ at 6450 as you are accelerating, but, the engine doesn't necessarily cut power at the shift point, instead it keeps on accelerating, as the transmission does its thing - when in PWR mode, the shift happens faster, so it may only reach 6510, but, in Normal mode, the shift takes longer, even though the shift started at the same time, so, the engine RPM climbs to 6625 before the shift is actually completed...
Just a hypothesis, but it appears to be supported by that chart...
08-20-12, 04:36 AM
#233
By measuring the width from the peaks to troughs in the Gernby post: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/3042656-post38.html does anything think the shifts in PWR are a smidgen faster?
Really you'd need to be datalogging a chart of when the shifts actually happen and also be recording the datastream of when the shifts are commanded, and cross-reference the two, to determine relative speeds for each shift of each gear in each mode... (assuming balanced finds no specific data in his manuals)
08-20-12, 07:02 AM
#236
Given his mention of Ignore the relative rate of accelleration between the lines I'm not sure you can conclude that from the chart.
Really you'd need to be datalogging a chart of when the shifts actually happen and also be recording the datastream of when the shifts are commanded, and cross-reference the two, to determine relative speeds for each shift of each gear in each mode... (assuming balanced finds no specific data in his manuals)
Really you'd need to be datalogging a chart of when the shifts actually happen and also be recording the datastream of when the shifts are commanded, and cross-reference the two, to determine relative speeds for each shift of each gear in each mode... (assuming balanced finds no specific data in his manuals)
The faster shift and the higher RPM could, indeed be caused by the difference in acceleration...
Perfect example - my IS used to shift perfectly every single time, turbo'd it, then, with the stock rev limiter in place, it would still shift at the same time, but would bounce off the rev limiter... In this case, rate of acceleration changes maximum RPM seen, but didn't change the shift point...
08-20-12, 07:25 AM
#237
By measuring the width from the peaks to troughs in the Gernby post: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/3042656-post38.html does anything think the shifts in PWR are a smidgen faster?
The normal mode is luxury mode with no shift shocks.
This is how I feel. I do not have the time nor the inclination to go measure it with a stopwatch or anything like that.
Best answer would be if somebody can get their hands on the Lexus Engineers Transmission charts explaining in detail the differences that the engineers intended to introduces with these 3 modes.
08-20-12, 07:33 AM
#238
IIRC manual shift was always a little slower due to shift lag, but I'd have to try it again in SPORT/PWR mode to see if it shifted quicker. Based on what has been posted there is no AI-shift in S.
08-20-12, 07:37 AM
#239
Uh... what?
You seem to be going on some weird tangent about the "learning" feature of the car.
I'm talking about the driver.
The two are different things.
Now if you mean you simply had it in PWR every since you owned it, and thus your brain has already/only calibrated how far you hit the gas based on PWR mode... that certainly a thing that is possible.
It's not really relevant to the discussion though... because another guy who "liked" the car accelerating in the exact way as you, who only ever drove in normal mode, would be giving it more gas in any identical situation to yours, resulting in the same end-result throttle input to the ECU... so if "amount of throttle result" is the only thing adding line pressure, his line pressure in NORMAL would be the same as yours in PWR under the same conditions, he'd just be doing it by having his foot a bit further down.
(since you're gonna have all this great FSM info by the way- if you can find any sort of mention, or even better a specific chart, of what throttle changes PWR makes to pedal input, that'd be awesome info... it's yet another topic many have speculated on without any real data)
Are you a human being with a human brain?
Then meeting you or not won't really change my opinion, since there's certain ways in which human brains tend to work the same from one to the next.
I even explained it to you why your brain tends to tune throttle changes back out (not well enough apparently since you somehow starting bringing up previous owners despite that being wholly irrelevant). I'll try one more time though, using the kind of example I gave above-
Let's say there's driving route X and drivers A and B with identical ISx50s, and identical styles of driving.
Driver A is always in PWR mode (which we are presuming increases gas pedal sensitivity- such that without PWR mode pushing the gas say 8% opens the throttle 6%... but WITH PWR mode pushing the gas 8% opens the throttle 10%, and so on).
Driver B is always in NORMAL mode (see above for what that means to pedal input vs. throttle opening).
Now, to travel on route X in the style driver A likes, he has to give the car pedal at various points 1-6 of say:
5%, 10%, 25%, 100%, 45%, and 5%.
Given the "boost" POWER gives to pedal input the throttle ACTUALLY opens, say:
8%, 13%, 29%, 100%, 49%, and 8%.
With me so far?
Now, driver B likes the same style, and is on the same route, but in NORMAL. So to get the same style drive he has to give the car pedal at various points 1-6 of:
10%, 15%, 33%, 100%, 55%, and 10%
and he actually gets throttle openings of:
8%, 13%, 29%, 100%, 49%, and 8%.
So the 2 drivers applied the pedal differently, but got the same results.
Still with me I hope?
Ok...now... let's say driver B pushes the PWR button one day. But how he likes the car to drive didn't change.
First day he applies his normal pedal pressures of
10%, 15%, 33%, 100%, 55%, and 10%
But suddenly the car is accelerating more than he's comfortable with. It's sorta fun, in the driving like a maniac sense... but it's not how he really prefers it (if it were, he'd have just been hitting the pedal harder all this time, right?).
So over the course of maybe a week his brain will start to tune this back out, without much if any conscious effort... so that now he's giving pedal inputs just like driver A was... to get back to his same subjective driving feeling he likes.
That's why throttle controllers are fun toys for a few days at a time, but leaving em on all the time ends up with them being largely worthless... because the only thing it's really doing to the throttle is telling the ECU you pushed the gas more than you really did.
So likewise if you like how the car feels for condition X at 10% gas pedal, and you suddenly turn on PWR mode and now 10% is more than you like for condition X, you'll slowly learn to only hit the pedal say 6%, to get the same result as when you hit 10% in normal mode.
Thus you end up with roughly the same amount of throttle opening in either mode after a week or two of driving that way.
Please do.
If you find something that actually supports your original claim it would be important and valuable information and I'd be the first to thank you for finding it (and to my knowledge you'd be the first person in the 7+ years the car has been around, including dozens of people with TIS and FSM access) to find such information).
And if you don't (or find info specifically contradicting you) I hope you're likewise first to admit your original claim was without foundation.
You seem to be going on some weird tangent about the "learning" feature of the car.
I'm talking about the driver.
The two are different things.
Now if you mean you simply had it in PWR every since you owned it, and thus your brain has already/only calibrated how far you hit the gas based on PWR mode... that certainly a thing that is possible.
It's not really relevant to the discussion though... because another guy who "liked" the car accelerating in the exact way as you, who only ever drove in normal mode, would be giving it more gas in any identical situation to yours, resulting in the same end-result throttle input to the ECU... so if "amount of throttle result" is the only thing adding line pressure, his line pressure in NORMAL would be the same as yours in PWR under the same conditions, he'd just be doing it by having his foot a bit further down.
(since you're gonna have all this great FSM info by the way- if you can find any sort of mention, or even better a specific chart, of what throttle changes PWR makes to pedal input, that'd be awesome info... it's yet another topic many have speculated on without any real data)
Are you a human being with a human brain?
Then meeting you or not won't really change my opinion, since there's certain ways in which human brains tend to work the same from one to the next.
I even explained it to you why your brain tends to tune throttle changes back out (not well enough apparently since you somehow starting bringing up previous owners despite that being wholly irrelevant). I'll try one more time though, using the kind of example I gave above-
Let's say there's driving route X and drivers A and B with identical ISx50s, and identical styles of driving.
Driver A is always in PWR mode (which we are presuming increases gas pedal sensitivity- such that without PWR mode pushing the gas say 8% opens the throttle 6%... but WITH PWR mode pushing the gas 8% opens the throttle 10%, and so on).
Driver B is always in NORMAL mode (see above for what that means to pedal input vs. throttle opening).
Now, to travel on route X in the style driver A likes, he has to give the car pedal at various points 1-6 of say:
5%, 10%, 25%, 100%, 45%, and 5%.
Given the "boost" POWER gives to pedal input the throttle ACTUALLY opens, say:
8%, 13%, 29%, 100%, 49%, and 8%.
With me so far?
Now, driver B likes the same style, and is on the same route, but in NORMAL. So to get the same style drive he has to give the car pedal at various points 1-6 of:
10%, 15%, 33%, 100%, 55%, and 10%
and he actually gets throttle openings of:
8%, 13%, 29%, 100%, 49%, and 8%.
So the 2 drivers applied the pedal differently, but got the same results.
Still with me I hope?
Ok...now... let's say driver B pushes the PWR button one day. But how he likes the car to drive didn't change.
First day he applies his normal pedal pressures of
10%, 15%, 33%, 100%, 55%, and 10%
But suddenly the car is accelerating more than he's comfortable with. It's sorta fun, in the driving like a maniac sense... but it's not how he really prefers it (if it were, he'd have just been hitting the pedal harder all this time, right?).
So over the course of maybe a week his brain will start to tune this back out, without much if any conscious effort... so that now he's giving pedal inputs just like driver A was... to get back to his same subjective driving feeling he likes.
That's why throttle controllers are fun toys for a few days at a time, but leaving em on all the time ends up with them being largely worthless... because the only thing it's really doing to the throttle is telling the ECU you pushed the gas more than you really did.
So likewise if you like how the car feels for condition X at 10% gas pedal, and you suddenly turn on PWR mode and now 10% is more than you like for condition X, you'll slowly learn to only hit the pedal say 6%, to get the same result as when you hit 10% in normal mode.
Thus you end up with roughly the same amount of throttle opening in either mode after a week or two of driving that way.
Please do.
If you find something that actually supports your original claim it would be important and valuable information and I'd be the first to thank you for finding it (and to my knowledge you'd be the first person in the 7+ years the car has been around, including dozens of people with TIS and FSM access) to find such information).
And if you don't (or find info specifically contradicting you) I hope you're likewise first to admit your original claim was without foundation.
Your final control is your foot (actually your brain).
One of the another ways to experience this is when you play Gran Tourismo or Forza.
If you go back and forth between a Daihatsu beginners's car and a Ferrari 458, you will find yourself either pushing the Ferrari hard or babying the Daihatsu
08-20-12, 09:25 AM
#240
As I mentioned in my earlier post, that is why I believe the cars are faster when in normal... because the shift happens faster, it doesn't rev quite as high...
lets say the shift ~begins~ at 6450 as you are accelerating, but, the engine doesn't necessarily cut power at the shift point, instead it keeps on accelerating, as the transmission does its thing - when in PWR mode, the shift happens faster, so it may only reach 6510, but, in Normal mode, the shift takes longer, even though the shift started at the same time, so, the engine RPM climbs to 6625 before the shift is actually completed...
Just a hypothesis, but it appears to be supported by that chart...
lets say the shift ~begins~ at 6450 as you are accelerating, but, the engine doesn't necessarily cut power at the shift point, instead it keeps on accelerating, as the transmission does its thing - when in PWR mode, the shift happens faster, so it may only reach 6510, but, in Normal mode, the shift takes longer, even though the shift started at the same time, so, the engine RPM climbs to 6625 before the shift is actually completed...
Just a hypothesis, but it appears to be supported by that chart...
Lots happening during the actual shift process. So I'm not contesting that end result of 0-60mph or 1/4 mile times show that Normal is faster.