Toymota

Yeah I'm just throwing it out there. It was barely a few pixels shorter depending on where you measure so hardly significant. Again, I'm not contesting that the end result of 0-60mph or 1/4 mile times show that Normal is faster.

balanced

iTrader: (3)

Your first statment: "Now if you mean you simply had it in PWR every since you owned it, and thus your brain has already/only calibrated how far you hit the gas based on PWR mode... that certainly a thing that is possible." is EXACTLY what I was saying.

In your example of two drivers I (mostly) agree, except your assumption of the changes in throttle position being linear. Unless, you have data otherwise, consider that it is logrithmic. I'm thinking that it must be since WOT yields "what I think is odd results" since Normal is faster than PWR. you can only push the gas 100% and get 100% throttle. So let me re-create your example like this:

Now, to travel on route X in the style driver A likes, he has to give the car pedal at various points 1-6 of say:
5%, 10%, 25%, 100%, 45%, and 5%.
Given the "boost" POWER gives to pedal input the throttle ACTUALLY opens, say:
15%, 20%, 30%, 100%, 47%, and 15%.

With me so far?

Now, driver B likes the same style, and is on the same route, but in NORMAL. So to get the same style drive he has to give the car pedal at various points 1-6 of:
15%, 20%, 30%, 100%, 45%, and 15%
and he actually gets throttle openings of:
15%, 20%, 30%, 100%, 45%, and 15%

and for what it's worth....again....what I beleive, is that the change in throttle, creates more line pressure (via various algorithms) causing the transmission to shift between gears harder, or quicker (comparing Driver A pressing 5-10-25-___-45-5 as opposed to driver B pressing the same 5-10-25-___-45-5). Obviously, if Driver A pressing 5-10-25-___-45-5 would get the same thing as Driver B pressing 15-20-20-___-47-15. 100% throttle would always get the hard, or quicker change.

Do you agree with that possiblity (non-linear progresion of throttle, not linear)? - I'm very clear you don't agree with the transmission shift statement.

I will be the first one to say, if I verify that my (ah-umph, ah-umph) assumption is incorrect.

chikoo

If the mind calibration was the only big difference between normal and power, how does one get better drag times from 0-60 with normal mode?

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Pedal calibration is only relevant for values less than 100%. If testing drag times your pedal input is 100% regardless of what mode you are in.





and that's fine... but it doesn't mean you're running higher line pressure, because your actual throttle result is the same as the guy who likes the same results as you but runs in normal all the time... just the guy in normal is giving it a bit more gas pedal to get the same throttle opening results as you.


Why is your assumption of logarithmic any more valid or likely than mine of linear? (it's probably somewhere in between really)

Even better question though is- why is it relevant at all?

Are you saying line pressure is increased based on how far the pedal is physically pushed or on how far the throttle actually opens?

If it's the first (that line pressure increases with simply pedal input, then it'd be higher in normal mode since you'd need more pedal for the same throttle opening... since you're obviously not saying that you must mean---

If it's the second one then the type of progression doesn't matter, because both drivers will be opening the throttle the same amount over all 6 data points once they've calibrated to the pedal if they both like the same style of driving.


But they're both opening the throttle the same amount, they're just having to use different amounts of pedal to accomplish it.

And the guy in normal is using more pedal.

So either the guy in normal should be getting the higher line pressure (if you think it's pedal pressure) or they'd get the same line pressure.

is it possible that it's non-linear? Sure. One of the marketing claims of the electronic throttle controllers in fact is that it makes the pedal "more linear"

I'm just not seeing how it's relevant to line pressure, as described above, since both the guy in normal and the guy in PWR will be targeting the same amounts of throttle opening in both bases... they'll just be using different amounts of pedal input to get there.

My0gr81

@balanced:
Give up already, it's like trying to argue with Spock. Hard to do when your position is based on "feel" and a desire to back it up with data that is not there. Kurt may be right or wrong, but his position is based on logic and inherent design characteristics of the technology at hand.

balanced

iTrader: (3)

....You're so intent on making me wrong....read it again:

Comparing Driver A pressing 5-10-25-___-45-5 IN PWR MODE
as opposed to driver B pressing the same 5-10-25-___-45-5 IN NORMAL MODE

The same pedal depression for Driver A and Driver B -- Driver A is getting more throttle response (remember he is in power mode) and my assumption more line pressure, quicker changes.

Then different pedal depression (but the same throttle position) for Driver A pressing 5-10-25-___-45-5 IN POWER MODE would get the same thing as Driver B pressing 15-20-20-___-47-15 IN NORMAL MODE

What I'm saying is Driver A and Driver B both depressing the pedal 5-10-25-100-45-5: Driver A will have more line pressure, because of increased throttle response, generating quicker gear changes.

Stop talking about: Driver A pressing 5-10-25-___-45-5 IN POWER MODE would get the same thing as Driver B pressing 15-20-20-___-47-15 IN NORMAL MODE.... it's the same, I agree, I'm not saying it's different, 100% concurrence....now forget about that. It's not a point of contention.

What I'm saying is Driver A (in PWR mode) and Driver B (in Normal mode) both depressing the pedal 5-10-25-100-45-5: Driver A will have more line pressure, because of increased throttle response, generating quicker gear changes. --- this is my point, this is what I'm trying to prove.

Issue #2:

Linear was an incorrect term for what I was trying to state...let me rephrase. In your example there is equal percentage change in pedal position related to throttle response. I'm saying the difference at lower speeds are greater and diminish as pedal travel approaches maximum. for example:

your stating (paraphrased) in PWR mode pedal down 10%=15% throttle 20%=25% and 30%=35%40%=45% 50%=55% 60%=65%

I'm saying it probably looks more like 10%=25% 20%=35% 30%=45% 75%=80% 100%=100%

balanced

iTrader: (3)

yeah, not much on giving up. Like I said earlier... I'll conceed if I can't prove my "assumptions". Just let me get my manuals....hopefuly they will be here today/tomorrow. It will take a few days for me to find it, figure it out, etc...

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

No, I'm intent on finding as correct an answer as possible.

But nobody is making that comparison (except you I guess)

Because if both drivers game the same pedal input they'd get totally different vehicle behavior.

Which is not what would actually happen if both drivers had identical taste in vehicle behavior.

Which was the basic premise I began my entire example with.


The enitre point was that if both drivers like the same type of vehicle behavior that they'd be aiming for the same behavior which would mean they'd be supplying different pedal input in the two modes.

And since their result would be the same, so would line pressure.

If you want to change that entire premise to something totally different, where the 2 drivers desire totally different vehicle behavior, that's a whole other discussion.


So let's have that one then...

Ok... in this example they both press the pedal the same, and if we assume PWR mode opens the throttle further for the same amount of pedal press, driver A gets more throttle opening... which might mean more line pressure.

But on the other hand, that really has nothing to do with what MODE the driver is in, it has to do with how much throttle opening the driver is commanding.

if driver B in normal mode simply pushed the gas pedal a bit more he'd get the same throttle opening as A did, and thus the same line pressure, despite being in normal mode not PWR.

Likewise if two drivers were BOTH in PWR mode and one commanded more throttle opening than the other he'd get more line pressure, and being in PWR mode wouldn't be the reason. Replace PWR with normal in that sentence and it remains equally valid.



Which again brings us back to the conclusion that line pressure is increased by throttle opening... not which ECT mode you are in.


Meaning as in the original example of mine, if 2 drivers, one in PWR and one in NORMAL both desire the same throttle opening, they will get the same line pressure, just the second driver will need to push the pedal a bit further.


Yeah, that's why I said the truth is probably somewhere in between linear and log... I don't know of any published source that actually tells us this information for the 2IS though (and I wouldn't be shocked if it's different between 250 and 350 either).

I suspect this won't be in the FSM either... would be easy enough to find with datalogging though if you had software recording pedal position versus throttle opening and just tested all 3 modes.

chikoo

So the shift points are different at 100% (WOT) between normal and pwr mode? Why would that be the case if the only significant change is the calibration of the throttle pedal????

I am 100% sure that the shifts are quicker with more shift shocks in pwr mode. The normal mode is designed to be "lexusy" with smooth transitions.

What I do not have is any source of Lexus/Toyota backing me up.

Actually, Kurtz your post answers this question. Focus on the highlighted portion.

My0gr81

Raplidly downshifting from gear to gear doesn't imply that the actual time for the individual shift itself is faster.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Exactly that.


It means it's more prone to decide downshifting is in order sooner (and possibly to do so through more gears), not that each shift itself happens faster.

Reading it as the shift happens faster makes little sense in context, especially for the braking example (since it'd run directly counter to the idea that more throttle=faster shifts, given in that situation the gas pedal input is 0)



Huh? Whoever said the only difference between PWR and normal was the calibration of the pedal? In fact right below that claim you include the graphic where 4 other differences are shown.

the 4th, mentioned above the chart, is the shift pattern is changed. That is, the map of when to shift to what gear.

Datalogging seems to support that the map for normal mode shifts at a higher rpm than PWR mode at WOT. (though it's possible it's not the map, it's the shift taking longer- we don't have enough data to know the cause, just the result- that normal shifts higher).

chikoo

Nice answer. Doesn't tell me anything

chikoo

In order to downshift faster, there are 2 phases: Decision and action.
You are suggesting that only the decision phase is faster. Not the action.
Maybe. Then pray what is contributing to the shift shocks that I experience in PWR mode?

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Since I've not ridden with you I'd only be guessing.

The true cynic would say it's the same thing contributing to the folks who are "sure" they feel the extra hp from their loud new short ram intake

chikoo

What is the "various signals" ?
It could very well be the ECT mode selection button, and some more....like if it was Saturday or a blue moon or if the AC sniffs any alcohol in the car