balanced

iTrader: (3)

STOOOOOOOP WITH THE TWO DRIVERS - ONE PRESSING HARDER IN NORMAL MODE !!!

You brought that up to contridict what I'm saying and what I'm saying has nothing to do with that.

Two identical drivers in two identical cars:

one in PWR

one in Normal

Both press the gas pedal the exact same amount (which is not WOT) lets say 20% for example.

The throttle opens more on the PWR car, calculations happen in the ECU based on a bunch of inputs, (my theory is) the transmission shifts faster. Period.

EVERYTHING is the same except for the PWR button being pushed in.

--in your scenario the 2nd driver has to press the accelerator harder --- forget that --- EVERYTHING is the same EXCEPT the PWR button is activated
.

chikoo

Maybe the answer lies in the fact that transmission shifts to a lower-er gear than in the normal mode.
In the normal mode, for the same pedal pressure, it downshifts 1 gear. But not so in the PWR mode. It actually goes down 2 more often than not. that rapid change in RPM as a result is what is causing shift shocks, and not line pressure.

anthrax144

The only fact you can take from this example is the driver in NORMAL would be going slower (due to less throttle input, not because PWR mode shifts faster). The same results can be achieved by putting in a throttle controller and placing it in ECO mode for the guy pushing the PWR button. The ECO mode would offset the additional throttle input caused by the PWR button. Whether or not the car shifts faster is completely inconclusive. How does this prove your theory that the car shifts faster in PWR?

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

No, I brought that up to explain what actually happens with one driver in normal and one in power and BOTH wanting the car to behave as the same throttle. Which is what would normally happen in real life if you took the SAME GUY and let him drive 2 weeks in a car in normal versus letting him drive 2 weeks in the same car in PWR.



Why?

That's the part that doesn't make sense.

The only reason the guy in normal is pressing the "same" amount is he wants the car to go slower.

Thus he's not an identical driver.

I mean, nobody pushes the gas 20% of the way down because he's measuring pedal angle... he pushes it 20% down because 20%, in the mode the car is in, does the job he's wanting the car to do.

If he wanted it faster he'd press the gas more.

So with two identical drivers the guy in normal would always be pressing the gas more (outside of WOT) than the guy in PWR because two identical drivers would want two identical amounts of throttle opening.

That's why my example is the proper one and yours just makes up disparate conditions to make your case sound better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by balanced

The throttle opens more on the PWR car, calculations happen in the ECU based on a bunch of inputs, (my theory is) the transmission shifts faster. Period.

And if the guy in normal was actually an identical driver he'd have been pushing the pedal more to get the same throttle opening... and the transmission would shift identically as fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by balanced

--in your scenario the 2nd driver has to press the accelerator harder

Yes, because that is what an identical driver would actually do, since he wants identical throttle opening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by balanced

--- forget that --- EVERYTHING is the same EXCEPT the PWR button is activated
.

Other than "it makes my case sound better" you've given no reason whatsoever that two otherwise identical people would drive that way

(other than for the very first little while after the NORMAL driver switches to PWR or vice versa, before they self-adjust their pedal modulation- and in that case they're not shifting faster or slower because of the mode they are in, they're shifting faster or slower because of the amount of throttle opening- which they eventually will get to identical as they adjust to the given mode)

I've given several about why they would not drive your way if they're identical drivers.

I understand you don't like my example because it disagrees with your theory, but it's a better, more accurate and realistic example of what would actually happen with long term use of either mode.

And as both Anthrax and I have pointed out, in any case where the shift is faster at all, it's due to a larger throttle opening, not the mode the car is in.

balanced

iTrader: (3)

please please please shut up about one guy wanting to go as fast as the other.... ! You are confusing the situation, by stating that your mythical driver wants to go as fast as the other one.... just stop. Let it go!!! Why would your mythical guy want to go as fast? I dont know nor do I care.


for once...dont create anything else in this story. They dont "want" to go the same speed...if they do they can...I'm not talking about that.

Forget the two guys - two robots get in two identical cars -EXCEPT one car has the PWR button pushed. Both robots are programed to instantly depress the gas pedal to 20%. They accelerate. The robot in the car with the power button pushed out accelerates the other. It happens because the car throtle is open more. Period....you can't argue that (unless you start changing things again). My hypothisis is that the greater throttle response (caused by nothing other than the PWR button being pushed) makes the transmission shift quicker because of incresed line pressure. Once again, why was the throttle open further? ONLY because the button was pushed...that is the only variable. I currently have no proof of this, this is what I'm looking for.

Please don't say the second robot became competitive and decided to press the gas harder because whatever so it doens't matter so he went just as fast. Dont say that it was because the throttle and not the button...the button is the only variable, the pedal was the same 20% down. The only diference is the button. Do you understand...the button...the only variable here...the button... there are no "wants" there ais no nothing else Why would two robots do this .... who cares, I can't seem to get my point across to you with people driving because you want them to "think".

For the last time if the robot grows a brain get competitive and decided to equal the thottle changes by pressing the gas harder IT'S THE SAME.... no difference ... I agree.... no argument. HOWEVER that's not what Im talking about. It's never been what I've been talking about (It's what you've been talking about).

I dont like your example, because has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say. Not because we disagree. I still dont think you've considered MY senario without changing it in by some driver "wanting" to do somthing that you want him to do and not me... I can't beleive your argument is now, "I dont know why anyone would drive that way" so my way is better...

anthrax144

Nobody is debating that, given the same input, the person in PWR mode would accelerate faster. That's a fact. But it has nothing to do with faster shifts. It's because in PWR mode, the same input compared to normal mode creates increased throttle. PERIOD. Nothing to do with shift speed. NONE. I don't know why you are hung up on this other than your gut feel tells you otherwise. Just like the loud intake tells somebody they have more HP. In the absence of evidence (of which you have not provided any other then anecdotal responses) this means nothing.

My0gr81

@balanced:

Spock called, he said "live long and prosper". Let it go man, it's just a car.

balanced

iTrader: (3)

You are correct. the other car would be going slower ===> that is exactly my point! and why? the only reason it can be, the PWR button is pushed. That is the only difference between the two cars. This in itself proves nothing...I never said it did. As a matter of fact I very specifically said I have NO PROOF I've found yet. I'm simply trying to create a senario (which Kurtz wants to change) where the throttle response is changed (which I believe creates higher line pressure, which inturns causes the transmission to shift quicker). Frankly, I still believe my third post (ps14 I think) proves this -- but Kurtz doesnt, so I'm going to continue to look for more evidence.

and just like Kurtz, introducing something else....yes a Sprint Booster would accomplish the same thing.... I'm not talking about that and it has nothing to do with this conversation...but yes, that is correct

balanced

iTrader: (3)

so do you just read the last post and chime in?

balanced

iTrader: (3)

This was my previous "proof" on page 13....I'm lookng for somthing else...but frankly I think this is pretty clear. if someone presses the PWR button, it increases the throttle (compared to someone that doesnt - not compared to someone that is racing him or trying to duplicate his efforts in Normal, or someone that has a Sprint Booster) more throttle, increased line pressure, "various" signals....

Notice, No where did I say anything about 2 drivers or one pressing the gas harder than the other, nor driving at WOT... this was all introduced later by someone besides me. I never wanted to discuss those other things...

balanced

iTrader: (3)

So what is it you dont understand about what I said? This is what I will attempt to prove by quoting information from my FSM ---- when I get them this week --- Nothing about this is an attempt to prove my theory only establish the senario for what I'm hypothesizing. I hope there is more info to come....this isnt' it....and if there is nothing -- like I said already I'll fess up.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

.

No, I'm not, because you repeatedly said they were identical drivers.

Which means they'd want to go identically fast.

It's your example that needs to keep changing the conditions because the ones that actually give a fair comparison don't work for you.

Why not?

They're identical drivers...why do they suddenly want to go different speeds in the same conditions?

(hint: no reason at all other than your story makes no sense without this made up condition)

Ok... you're not gonna like where this goes, but sure... let's say you do exactly that.

Err... not really, no...

The throttle OPENING is larger for the guy in PWR mode (if we continue with the presumption PWR increases pedal sensitivity). So that's also different between the two cars. In fact, that's the reason he's going faster. (why it's open more is the button in this example)

But let's continue!

Good... Because if you put identical humans (identical in behavior and driving desires) in the two cars, that's what you will actually get. The same throttle opening with different pedal inputs.

That's why your example is so awful.

It won't happen unless you drive the car quite differently, for no apparent reason other than to fit your example.

But let's go back to the robots for a second....

In your example (just inserting made up #s to solidify it) say it's something like this:

Car A- PWR Mode- Pedal is at 20%. Throttle is open say 25%. Line pressure is X (whatever it is for 25% throttle opening)

Car B- NORMAL mode- Pedal is at 20%. Throttle is open say 17%. Line pressure is Y (whatever it is for 17% throttle opening).

X might be greater than Y (if your 2 base assumptions about how throttle opening works in PWR mode vs. normal and how line pressure works).

But the reason it's higher is-

Greater throttle opening.

NOT the PWR vs. Normal mode.

As evidence of this, if you open the throttle 25% in normal mode even you agree line pressure would then be the same as car A.

So it's not transmission mode that makes any difference, it's throttle opening.

And two identical human drivers would target the same throttle opening in the same condition. Because that's what identical behavior means and humans aren't robots programmed to always push the gas a fixed distance regardless of the real-world result.



Again- in that scenario the higher pressure is caused by a larger throttle opening.

PWR mode is irrelevant.

If you opened the throttle the same amount (via more pedal input) in normal mode you'd have the same line pressure as you did in PWR mode with that throttle opening.

That's why your example makes no sense for trying to state anything about PWR mode.

It makes so little sense you had to switch your drivers for robots for it to even happen.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

The thing you think is "pretty clear" proof says this:


that's what it says.

What it does not say (besides anything at all about AI-SHIFT or ECT modes) is "line pressure that increases according to engine output."

varies != increases.

That's your assumption laid on top of what it actually says.

It might even be a correct one, but the fact you moved right past it to further assumptions shows the basic flaws in your lines of reasoning so far here.

But here's some doubt for ya!

The very next line in your quoted "proof" is:
This could mean more throttle input during the shift lowers line pressure to avoid a harsher shift.

Here's a document, it's pretty crazy technical... but if you read the part starting with "DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION" you'll see exactly that type of control discussed.

http://osdir.com/patents/Interrelate...-06949050.html


In context of your quote, that document suggests the control is reducing line pressure if you give it more throttle to avoid shift shocks.... not the other way round.


Want more? Here's a description of the SLT unit from another toyota transmission-
http://highlanderclub.ru/files/manua...2f/cip2716.pdf

That also sounds like that technical patent document... that if engine output rises it might reduce line pressure to smooth the shift.

The exact opposite of your most basic assumption.


See the problem with assumptions?



Now, all that said, I can just as easily technically explain why it might be exactly the opposite, that those controls are varying line pressure to smooth shifts where throttle drops during shift and you do get an increase in line pressure with increased throttle valve position (not gas pedal position).... but either way, it's the throttle opening that changes line pressure... not the ECT mode.

Which is why your leap from "throttle opening varies line pressure" to "ECT-PWR increases line pressure" is such a poor one.

balanced

iTrader: (3)

LET’S START FROM SCRATCH:
Scenario: Two robots get in two identical cars -EXCEPT one car has the PWR button pushed. Both robots are programed to instantly depress the gas pedal to 20%. They accelerate. The robot in the car with the power button pushed out accelerates the other. It happens because the car throttle is open more. The greater throttle response caused by nothing other than the PWR button being pushed because all of the other variables are exactly the same.
I’d like to hypothesis- based on this scenario above- that if you compare the time it takes for the transmission to shift from one gear to another in the car with the PWR button depressed it would be quicker than the second car in Normal mode. I’m basing my initial estimate on the below information:

CH-72 CHASSIS — A960E AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONELECTRONIC CONTROL SYSTEM
1. General
The electronic control system of the A960E automatic transmissions consist of the control functions listed below.
Line Pressure Control (See page CH-40)

Based on the throttle opening angle and various signals, the ECM sends a signal to solenoid valve SLT to generate line pressure that varies according to the engine output and to allow smooth gear changes.

The way I interpret this is: the larger throttle opening of the “PWR” car (as only compared to the “Normal” car) will create greater line pressure car (as only compared to the “Normal” car). So the PWR car will have a quicker shift (as only compared to the “Normal” car – which will have a smooth gear change -as stated above- created by lower line pressure, by having less throttle).

There are many ways that you can change this scenario to affect the outcome. My hypothesis is only based on identical cars where the pedal is presses exactly the same. --Nothing else than what is stated above, no Sprint Boosters, no robots deciding to go WOT, and no robots “wanting” to race….. I’ve tried to be as clear as possible.

This is a hypothesis; this is not meant to contain all facts and evidence thus creating a proof. I hope to find more information supporting this.

If/when I do I will post it.

If I don’t I’ll post that too.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Let's take another scenario!

Robot in PWR mode in car A presses the gas 20%

Robot in car B is ALSO in PWR mode and presses the gas 40%. That's the only variable, how far they pressed the gas.


According to your assumptions, Robot in car B shifts quicker with higher line pressure.

But wait! they were BOTH in PWR mode!

OMG! Pressing the gas harder is what increases line pressure clearly!

Oh, no, wait...it's throttle opening that causes the line pressure variance... in BOTH your scenario and mine....not the ECT mode or the pedal angle. It's the resulting throttle opening.

And a driver will tend to adjust pedal pressure for the desired throttle opening he wants in ANY transmission mode.

Rendering PWR vs. Normal irrelevant for this discussion. Just like it was when you started.