Can I run with ECT Power mode continuosly?
08-21-12, 11:02 AM
#286
How they get there is determined by throttle opening.
Some people get there fast, some slow. But they tend to get there the same way day in and day out in a given circumstance... which is what you then get to about why PWR vs. normal makes no difference... both will use the same throttle opening in the long run based on how they prefer to accelerate.
Objection, assuming facts not in evidence
(unless you mean it'd downshift further, in which case that's fine)
[quote=clubfoot;7436405]
and I'd have to brake less because the trans would down shift in a shorter time.
/QUOTE]
ah, that's the one
ETC mode is PWR vs normal (vs snow too)
08-21-12, 11:29 AM
#287
Ok,...good. No war started. :-)
The throttle plate would be the same but NOT the pedal positions!
I don't want to press the pedal further because of the situation I'm driving in. I want short bursts of speed quickly and maximum braking when I'm off the gas! Normal does not do this. Yea, it's only mill seconds but in a track race when I need cut 100ths of a second to get the power down,.... Of course my foot has to travel more to the mat get off and then hit the brake.
And no I can't left foot brake 'cause of the brake interlock,....LOL.
No, no, I meant if he had the traction control nannies engaged? Sorry for confusion.
The throttle plate would be the same but NOT the pedal positions!
I don't want to press the pedal further because of the situation I'm driving in. I want short bursts of speed quickly and maximum braking when I'm off the gas! Normal does not do this. Yea, it's only mill seconds but in a track race when I need cut 100ths of a second to get the power down,.... Of course my foot has to travel more to the mat get off and then hit the brake.
And no I can't left foot brake 'cause of the brake interlock,....LOL.
No, no, I meant if he had the traction control nannies engaged? Sorry for confusion.
08-21-12, 11:58 AM
#288
I mean, if we're just listing things we're unable to prove we're gonna be here a while.
That's how arguments work. If you want to convince people of your argument you need something to support it, or they're likely to reject it.
If there's "evidence enough" of other things, what are they, and what is the evidence for them?
08-21-12, 12:01 PM
#289
Ok,...good. No war started. :-)
The throttle plate would be the same but NOT the pedal positions!
I don't want to press the pedal further because of the situation I'm driving in. I want short bursts of speed quickly and maximum braking when I'm off the gas! Normal does not do this. Yea, it's only mill seconds but in a track race when I need cut 100ths of a second to get the power down,.... Of course my foot has to travel more to the mat get off and then hit the brake.
And no I can't left foot brake 'cause of the brake interlock,....LOL.
No, no, I meant if he had the traction control nannies engaged? Sorry for confusion.
The throttle plate would be the same but NOT the pedal positions!
I don't want to press the pedal further because of the situation I'm driving in. I want short bursts of speed quickly and maximum braking when I'm off the gas! Normal does not do this. Yea, it's only mill seconds but in a track race when I need cut 100ths of a second to get the power down,.... Of course my foot has to travel more to the mat get off and then hit the brake.
And no I can't left foot brake 'cause of the brake interlock,....LOL.
No, no, I meant if he had the traction control nannies engaged? Sorry for confusion.
So if you need those benefits, use em. Just don't expect your shift speed in PWR at say 40% throttle open to be any different than your shift speed in NORMAL at 40% throttle open.
(at least until someone finds different info from lexus, or shows some datalogs of shift commanded vs. shift executed for both modes)
As to Gernby and the TC nannies, I don't think his post mentions it, but given he had posted in detail in other threads about shutting them off for things like proper dyno testing I'd expect he had them off for that testing as well. (and even if they were left on I wouldn't expect them to alter results significantly in higher gears, and his results are consistent between modes even in those gears)
08-21-12, 03:40 PM
#290
Maybe the answer lies in the fact that transmission shifts to a lower-er gear than in the normal mode.
In the normal mode, for the same pedal pressure, it downshifts 1 gear. But not so in the PWR mode. It actually goes down 2 more often than not. that rapid change in RPM as a result is what is causing shift shocks, and not line pressure.
In the normal mode, for the same pedal pressure, it downshifts 1 gear. But not so in the PWR mode. It actually goes down 2 more often than not. that rapid change in RPM as a result is what is causing shift shocks, and not line pressure.
But everybody is just so focused on the 2 drivers pushing pedals
08-21-12, 03:54 PM
#291
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post
We all know how inadequate the handbook/manual is. They do not spell out the complete design. They only say "and other variables". That is evidence enough that the throttle opening is not the only variable and therefore almost foolish to stake your position around it.
We all know how inadequate the handbook/manual is. They do not spell out the complete design. They only say "and other variables". That is evidence enough that the throttle opening is not the only variable and therefore almost foolish to stake your position around it.
That's how arguments work. If you want to convince people of your argument you need something to support it, or they're likely to reject it.
Which evidence is that?
If there's "evidence enough" of other things, what are they, and what is the evidence for them?
"Line Pressure Control (See page CH-40)
Based on the throttle opening angle and various signals, the ECM sends a signal to
solenoid valve SLT to generate line pressure that varies according to the engine outputand to allow smooth gear changes."
I hope the red color catches your attention
Various Signals could include, but not limited to:
1. PWR mode selected
2. Engine load
3. Speed of the car
4. Intake air temp
5. Temp of the transmission
6. O2 level
7.
8.
Last edited by chikoo; 08-21-12 at 04:00 PM.
08-21-12, 09:44 PM
#293
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I am pretty sure I figured it out, but no one cares to read my posts... one more time - the slower shift results in increased rpm, meaning the car holds the gear just a little longer - higher rpm shift means you are at a higher rpm once you are in to the next gear, meaning in a better power band...
whereas if you quicken the shift, with PWR mode, then the above doesn't happen, the shift happens quicker...
remember with an auto transmission *slushbox* that the time it takes to shift doesn't matter a whole lot as the car makes power throughout the shift and the transmission is putting down that power the entire time as well...
whereas if you quicken the shift, with PWR mode, then the above doesn't happen, the shift happens quicker...
remember with an auto transmission *slushbox* that the time it takes to shift doesn't matter a whole lot as the car makes power throughout the shift and the transmission is putting down that power the entire time as well...
My theory for why it shifts at an earlier RPM range in PWR vs Normal is that it doesn't want to tax the engine anymore than it has to. It "wants" to hold the car in its highest RPM range but it also still wants to prevent the engine from blowing up. There is a very narrow red-line band that it can safely operate in (6400 - 6600). Should the driver hold the RPM's at say, 6500 in PWR mode (it doesn't, it shifts before then) and you give it more throttle input, it's either going to bounce off the rev limiter before the next shift can occur or immediately have to shift into a higher gear. The computer is aware of this and is programmed to make that shift earlier so that when you do actually provide more throttle input, it doesn't have to immediately shift, it's already in the correct gear.
Of course, this is just my "theory". Notice it doesn't involve faster or slower shift speeds? My theory. No proof. I'm not going to claim it as fact.
08-22-12, 01:05 AM
#294
Of course, that's just your "theory". I'm not going to discount that that's not a possibility but again, without further evidence, it's just a theory.
My theory for why it shifts at an earlier RPM range in PWR vs Normal is that it doesn't want to tax the engine anymore than it has to. It "wants" to hold the car in its highest RPM range but it also still wants to prevent the engine from blowing up. There is a very narrow red-line band that it can safely operate in (6400 - 6600). Should the driver hold the RPM's at say, 6500 in PWR mode (it doesn't, it shifts before then) and you give it more throttle input, it's either going to bounce off the rev limiter before the next shift can occur or immediately have to shift into a higher gear. The computer is aware of this and is programmed to make that shift earlier so that when you do actually provide more throttle input, it doesn't have to immediately shift, it's already in the correct gear.
Of course, this is just my "theory". Notice it doesn't involve faster or slower shift speeds? My theory. No proof. I'm not going to claim it as fact.
My theory for why it shifts at an earlier RPM range in PWR vs Normal is that it doesn't want to tax the engine anymore than it has to. It "wants" to hold the car in its highest RPM range but it also still wants to prevent the engine from blowing up. There is a very narrow red-line band that it can safely operate in (6400 - 6600). Should the driver hold the RPM's at say, 6500 in PWR mode (it doesn't, it shifts before then) and you give it more throttle input, it's either going to bounce off the rev limiter before the next shift can occur or immediately have to shift into a higher gear. The computer is aware of this and is programmed to make that shift earlier so that when you do actually provide more throttle input, it doesn't have to immediately shift, it's already in the correct gear.
Of course, this is just my "theory". Notice it doesn't involve faster or slower shift speeds? My theory. No proof. I'm not going to claim it as fact.
08-22-12, 06:05 AM
#295
Says who?
"I'm gonna keep making **** up and unless you can prove it's NOT true you can't say it isn't!" is not a valid method of argument.
I never said that.
I said it's the only one we know is an input.
Therefore claiming other things are one, without evidence, isn't a valid fact, unless you want to change the definition of fact too.
yeah, again, we were all aware of that quite a while ago.
But we don't know what those signals are. Or if any of them besides throttle opening are within driver control (air temp wouldn't be for example, short of bringing your own atmosphere).
However, given the next line "varies according to the engine output", it suggests ECT mode is not a factor since it doesn't change engine output... (while something like intake air temp does)
You list some you think could be involved. That's great as speculation, it's poor as presented fact.
Unless and until someone finds any evidence that ETC mode is one of those factors I'll continue to point out they are assuming facts not in evidence.
"I'm gonna keep making **** up and unless you can prove it's NOT true you can't say it isn't!" is not a valid method of argument.
I said it's the only one we know is an input.
Therefore claiming other things are one, without evidence, isn't a valid fact, unless you want to change the definition of fact too.
"Line Pressure Control (See page CH-40)
Based on the throttle opening angle and various signals, the ECM sends a signal to
solenoid valve SLT to generate line pressure that varies according to the engine outputand to allow smooth gear changes."
I hope the red color catches your attention
Based on the throttle opening angle and various signals, the ECM sends a signal to
solenoid valve SLT to generate line pressure that varies according to the engine outputand to allow smooth gear changes."
I hope the red color catches your attention
But we don't know what those signals are. Or if any of them besides throttle opening are within driver control (air temp wouldn't be for example, short of bringing your own atmosphere).
However, given the next line "varies according to the engine output", it suggests ECT mode is not a factor since it doesn't change engine output... (while something like intake air temp does)
You list some you think could be involved. That's great as speculation, it's poor as presented fact.
Unless and until someone finds any evidence that ETC mode is one of those factors I'll continue to point out they are assuming facts not in evidence.
Last edited by Kurtz; 08-22-12 at 06:08 AM.
08-22-12, 08:07 AM
#297
All you did was list some random stuff you think might be among those things, without any justification for them actually being those things
I mean, I can list a bunch of stuff I have no evidence for too, but what's the point? It certainly does nothing to establish the relevance of Normal vs. PWR in the discussion in any way, and nothing from lexus, ever, suggests that ETC mode is one of them. (indeed there's suggestion that it's NOT, because the mode does not change engine output)
08-22-12, 08:11 AM
#298
ROFL.
I love your thinking Kurtz.
You are aware that other variables are involved, but do not want to bring them into the picture because none of us know what they are.
I love your thinking Kurtz.
You are aware that other variables are involved, but do not want to bring them into the picture because none of us know what they are.
08-22-12, 08:23 AM
#299
Well, I've been saying since the beginning that the one place PWR is useful is if doing a lot of on/off the gas driving... but for all the reasons listed in the Lexus information, not because of transmission line pressure (which won't be any different compared to the same throttle opening in normal mode as far as anyone has shown).
So if you need those benefits, use em. Just don't expect your shift speed in PWR at say 40% throttle open to be any different than your shift speed in NORMAL at 40% throttle open.
(at least until someone finds different info from lexus, or shows some datalogs of shift commanded vs. shift executed for both modes)
As to Gernby and the TC nannies, I don't think his post mentions it, but given he had posted in detail in other threads about shutting them off for things like proper dyno testing I'd expect he had them off for that testing as well. (and even if they were left on I wouldn't expect them to alter results significantly in higher gears, and his results are consistent between modes even in those gears)
So if you need those benefits, use em. Just don't expect your shift speed in PWR at say 40% throttle open to be any different than your shift speed in NORMAL at 40% throttle open.
(at least until someone finds different info from lexus, or shows some datalogs of shift commanded vs. shift executed for both modes)
As to Gernby and the TC nannies, I don't think his post mentions it, but given he had posted in detail in other threads about shutting them off for things like proper dyno testing I'd expect he had them off for that testing as well. (and even if they were left on I wouldn't expect them to alter results significantly in higher gears, and his results are consistent between modes even in those gears)
So,... if the nannies were left on, as you are well aware, the effect on the three modes is dare I say dramatic, or in more subdued tones,....noticeable, since launching a car for 0 to 60 or 1/4 times is key to low times. As for higher gears, you cannot totally remove the transmission mode or ETC from the equation or for that matter TRAC because they all interact!
It's interesting that the nannies are turned off for dyno testing compared to leaving it in normal mode,...isn't it?
08-22-12, 09:11 AM
#300
I already know how the transmission works because I have the manual :-) but it would be too easy to just throw it out there and end the discussion and the lesson would be lost.
So,... if the nannies were left on, as you are well aware, the effect on the three modes is dare I say dramatic, or in more subdued tones,....noticeable, since launching a car for 0 to 60 or 1/4 times is key to low times. As for higher gears, you cannot totally remove the transmission mode or ETC from the equation or for that matter TRAC because they all interact!
It's interesting that the nannies are turned off for dyno testing compared to leaving it in normal mode,...isn't it?
So,... if the nannies were left on, as you are well aware, the effect on the three modes is dare I say dramatic, or in more subdued tones,....noticeable, since launching a car for 0 to 60 or 1/4 times is key to low times. As for higher gears, you cannot totally remove the transmission mode or ETC from the equation or for that matter TRAC because they all interact!
It's interesting that the nannies are turned off for dyno testing compared to leaving it in normal mode,...isn't it?
Again, ETC and the nannies aren't the same thing... VSC/TC on/of is an independent setting from SNOW/PWR/NORMAL. You could leave them off and be in normal if you wished. (and I'd expect them to be off in any mode for any sort of performance related testing or driving, unless VSC/TC is specifically what you are testing)
ETC is put into snow mode for a dyno- specifically because it allows you to go WOT at a lower rpm in 4th without a downshift. This isn't especially useful or instructive for much relating to street use though.
I don't bring them into the picture because nobody has given us any actual reason to.
If intake air temp is one of those factors for example (and of all the guesses it's the most likely one to be among them) it's pointless to "bring it in" for 2 reasons:
1) The driver can't control this variable (short any bringing his own atmosphere with him).
and
2) It was nothing to do with the topic... which if you check the thread title, is transmission modes.
I mean, it'd be like we were having a discussion about 1/4 mile times- and you brought up that times would be slower if it was raining. It's a bizarre and irrelevant point to the discussion.
Now, if you have any evidence that ETC mode in and of itself changes transmission line pressure, by all means present it. It'd be excellent, valuable, and useful information for the discussion.
But since I've asked you several times for this now, I'm thinking you have none and are just continuing to post because... wait... why?