Can I run with ECT Power mode continuosly?
08-23-12, 04:27 AM
#318
Yes, I am only talking about WOT, with the shifts are intended to occur 'at redline' (in quotes because my theory says an arbitrary point a few hundred rpm below redline). Now don't get hung up on the 100-200 rpm difference between normal and PWR when I say redline. My theory was this is just a variance in the shifting speeds.
Of course, at part throttle the shift points are totally different between normal and PWR modes. PWR holds gears much later, but not necessarily to redline. And normal mode can shift at redline when you floor it. So the full rpm range is available in both modes. Just the shift points change mostly depending on pedal position but also all those other factors.
Of course, at part throttle the shift points are totally different between normal and PWR modes. PWR holds gears much later, but not necessarily to redline. And normal mode can shift at redline when you floor it. So the full rpm range is available in both modes. Just the shift points change mostly depending on pedal position but also all those other factors.
08-23-12, 05:26 AM
#320
You kinda did though....when you wrote-
That sure sounds like you're saying the comparison is turning the nannies off vs ECT-Normal... which are different systems.
Are most folks on totally crap tires or something? Because I've not had any problem with wheel spin with VSC/TC off and good summer performance tires...
All my throttle controller testing was done with VSC/TC off for example, in normal mode, with 0 tire spin... (On Hankook Ventus V12 tires)
At a track (1/4 mile) it'd be even easier since you've got VHT on the track helping out.... heck, at the track folks are usually figuring out how high they can brake torque their launch without spin, so launching from idle is easy with good traction and the nannies off.
Which is fine, but it's also off for all the data we're discussing, so pretty irrelevant.
Except, not, because always starting in 2nd gear would suck. Normal vs. PWR lacks that drawback.
Normally? A few days a year worth. Nobody drives in it though.
I've lived plenty of other places with lots of snow, but not with this car.
Not sure the relevance on that question.
While I appreciate the Toyota-sourced info... that document is pretty clearly written for a much older, less advanced, 4 speed automatic... not what comes in the 2IS.
We already know several features ETC-PWR has (the chart I've posted) that aren't mentioned at all there... so I don't think we can conclude that document is accurate or complete for the transmissions in the 2IS (as one example your document explicitly states it shifts significantly higher in PWR mode (10 mph higher in one example listed), when we have definite proof it doesn't do that in the 2IS.
Well now you're just lying.
I've said exactly the opposite half a dozen times in the thread.
Hell, I was the first person in the thread to link to a chart from Lexus listing all the other things the ECT button controls apart from throttle.
From
Likewise I've said repeatedly in the last several days throttle opening is not the only thing controlling line pressure, but that it's the only one we are sure of does so and the driver can control
if you're going to ignore half of what I say, and blatantly make up the rest of what you claim I'm saying but didn't, I'm not sure much more productive can come of a discussion between us.
That sure sounds like you're saying the comparison is turning the nannies off vs ECT-Normal... which are different systems.
Are most folks on totally crap tires or something? Because I've not had any problem with wheel spin with VSC/TC off and good summer performance tires...
All my throttle controller testing was done with VSC/TC off for example, in normal mode, with 0 tire spin... (On Hankook Ventus V12 tires)
At a track (1/4 mile) it'd be even easier since you've got VHT on the track helping out.... heck, at the track folks are usually figuring out how high they can brake torque their launch without spin, so launching from idle is easy with good traction and the nannies off.
Which is fine, but it's also off for all the data we're discussing, so pretty irrelevant.
Except, not, because always starting in 2nd gear would suck. Normal vs. PWR lacks that drawback.
Normally? A few days a year worth. Nobody drives in it though.
I've lived plenty of other places with lots of snow, but not with this car.
Not sure the relevance on that question.
While I appreciate the Toyota-sourced info... that document is pretty clearly written for a much older, less advanced, 4 speed automatic... not what comes in the 2IS.
We already know several features ETC-PWR has (the chart I've posted) that aren't mentioned at all there... so I don't think we can conclude that document is accurate or complete for the transmissions in the 2IS (as one example your document explicitly states it shifts significantly higher in PWR mode (10 mph higher in one example listed), when we have definite proof it doesn't do that in the 2IS.
Well now you're just lying.
I've said exactly the opposite half a dozen times in the thread.
Hell, I was the first person in the thread to link to a chart from Lexus listing all the other things the ECT button controls apart from throttle.
From
Likewise I've said repeatedly in the last several days throttle opening is not the only thing controlling line pressure, but that it's the only one we are sure of does so and the driver can control
if you're going to ignore half of what I say, and blatantly make up the rest of what you claim I'm saying but didn't, I'm not sure much more productive can come of a discussion between us.
I just got into this discussion and in the last few days you are stuck on throttle position(which you agree).
Credit to you if you have indeed mentioned other variables that ECT Button controls. I am surprised you do not include them in the effects observed but chose to stick with throttle opening, probably because it is most significant, and most noticeable effect of the button.
Anyways, i said what i had to say. To assume in the logic that everything else is constant is just that ***-u-me.
Have a good day. I eagerly wait for someone who has the access and understanding to add to this post. Till then, i will be an observer.
08-23-12, 06:58 AM
#321
Wow indeed. I was kinda shocked by you doing it too, especially in a thread where people could go back and read my posts and see you were doing it.
I mentioned exactly that, many times, way before you even began posting in the thread. In fact I was the very first person in the thread to provide a direct source from Lexus describing the other things that button controlled. Here's the post... from almost 2 years ago in this very thread
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/5807368-post24.html
I've since re-posted that info or referred back to info in it at least half a dozen times in this very thread.
The fact you insisted I never did so would be back to that whole lying thing... because it's either than, or you were simply ignoring most of what I had posted, while telling me you disagreed with the made up arguments I did not post... not sure how that's better though.
Probably because none of them have anything to do with them
You'd know that if you'd ever read any of the posts you claim you're replying to.
The fact being in ETC-PWR means the car will hold gear longer if you suddenly take your foot off the gas has nothing whatsoever to do with what it does to transmission line pressure during a shift or if 1/4 mile times are slower in PWR mode.
The fact being in ETC-PWR means the car will downshift sooner and deeper for engine braking if you suddenly brake has nothing whatsoever to do with what it does to transmission line pressure during a shift or if 1/4 mile times are slower in PWR mode.
and so on with all the other known things the ETC-PWR mode does, that I've been telling people it does since before you entered the thread.
Those are items being in ETC-PWR changes, which make on/off throttle driving better compared to normal mode... but do not impact transmission line pressure during shifts compared to normal mode, which was the item under contention from Balanced.
I don't mind, at all, when someone reasonably disagrees with me on a topic.
I do mind a bit when they have nothing to contribute other than "Well, maybe you're wrong, though I've no evidence of any kind to support that claim" because that doesn't move the discussion along at all.
I mind quite a bit when they are outright dishonest about what I said on the topic, and then invent an argument I never made and say they disagree with it... especially when anyone can go back and check for themselves. Doubly so when they have nothing to actually contribute to the thread otherwise.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/5807368-post24.html
I've since re-posted that info or referred back to info in it at least half a dozen times in this very thread.
The fact you insisted I never did so would be back to that whole lying thing... because it's either than, or you were simply ignoring most of what I had posted, while telling me you disagreed with the made up arguments I did not post... not sure how that's better though.
Probably because none of them have anything to do with them
You'd know that if you'd ever read any of the posts you claim you're replying to.
The fact being in ETC-PWR means the car will hold gear longer if you suddenly take your foot off the gas has nothing whatsoever to do with what it does to transmission line pressure during a shift or if 1/4 mile times are slower in PWR mode.
The fact being in ETC-PWR means the car will downshift sooner and deeper for engine braking if you suddenly brake has nothing whatsoever to do with what it does to transmission line pressure during a shift or if 1/4 mile times are slower in PWR mode.
and so on with all the other known things the ETC-PWR mode does, that I've been telling people it does since before you entered the thread.
Those are items being in ETC-PWR changes, which make on/off throttle driving better compared to normal mode... but do not impact transmission line pressure during shifts compared to normal mode, which was the item under contention from Balanced.
I don't mind, at all, when someone reasonably disagrees with me on a topic.
I do mind a bit when they have nothing to contribute other than "Well, maybe you're wrong, though I've no evidence of any kind to support that claim" because that doesn't move the discussion along at all.
I mind quite a bit when they are outright dishonest about what I said on the topic, and then invent an argument I never made and say they disagree with it... especially when anyone can go back and check for themselves. Doubly so when they have nothing to actually contribute to the thread otherwise.
Last edited by Kurtz; 08-23-12 at 07:02 AM.
08-23-12, 07:07 AM
#322
if you mean WOT shift points, yeah... that's Gernbys datalogging post I linked to a few times previous-
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/3042656-post38.html
(lots more info in that general thread his post is in, including Caymandriver and others confirming the better 1/4 mile #s in normal mode)
08-23-12, 09:11 AM
#323
Lexus Test Driver
The crux of this discussion was orginally based on the "does it shift quicker" question and your argument was based on "it just changes Why and When it shifts". Changing the basis to "How it shifts" would imply that it is plausible it also shift quicker or slower.
08-23-12, 09:27 AM
#324
Hopefully that clears up your confusion and I apologize for leaving the word out there... "why" I think rolls a bit up into when, but you could leave em as individual terms I suppose.
08-23-12, 12:23 PM
#325
So I been giving it some thought and here is what I believe is going on.
Keep in mind these are just my opinions and not backed by any documentation or statistically relevant data.
When you hit the button to set ECT PWR mode on
This is what does not happen:
1. The throttle map is not changed. It does not open more compared to Normal
This is what is happening:
1. The timing is retarted. This results in a good low rpm power band, but in higher revs it actually suffers. Which is why the 0-60 times are better in Normal mode. This also results in an engine that responds quicker to the throttle input due to the retarted timing.
2. The gears hold on much more longer when you take your foot off the gas pedal, before actually shifting down.
3. The transmission also downshifts as much as 2 down, much quickly if the gas pedal is pushed in fast.
4. The transmission shifts down fast enough to keep pace with your slow down when you are braking. This is because they are anticipating the driver to push the gas pedal again, and when he does, it does not have to waste time in shifting down.
If you disagree with it, I have no problems. Just do not start pointing out that I have no "documentation" or proof to back this up. I do not.
Keep in mind these are just my opinions and not backed by any documentation or statistically relevant data.
When you hit the button to set ECT PWR mode on
This is what does not happen:
1. The throttle map is not changed. It does not open more compared to Normal
This is what is happening:
1. The timing is retarted. This results in a good low rpm power band, but in higher revs it actually suffers. Which is why the 0-60 times are better in Normal mode. This also results in an engine that responds quicker to the throttle input due to the retarted timing.
2. The gears hold on much more longer when you take your foot off the gas pedal, before actually shifting down.
3. The transmission also downshifts as much as 2 down, much quickly if the gas pedal is pushed in fast.
4. The transmission shifts down fast enough to keep pace with your slow down when you are braking. This is because they are anticipating the driver to push the gas pedal again, and when he does, it does not have to waste time in shifting down.
If you disagree with it, I have no problems. Just do not start pointing out that I have no "documentation" or proof to back this up. I do not.
08-23-12, 06:42 PM
#327
and that, my friend, is a classic symptom of an engine running with advance timing.
08-23-12, 07:01 PM
#328
This I'm not sure about. The Toyota information on the ETCS attached does explicitly say in Figure 7-04 for SNOW mode the throttle map is changed. It doesn't say anything about PWR mode but I assume it would be just as easy to boost the throttle map.
08-23-12, 07:26 PM
#329
This is what is happening:
1. The timing is retarted. This results in a good low rpm power band, but in higher revs it actually suffers. Which is why the 0-60 times are better in Normal mode. This also results in an engine that responds quicker to the throttle input due to the retarted timing.
1. The timing is retarted. This results in a good low rpm power band, but in higher revs it actually suffers. Which is why the 0-60 times are better in Normal mode. This also results in an engine that responds quicker to the throttle input due to the retarted timing.
The info I posted earlier about the transmission does say that there is an indirect effect on ignition timing though:
Engine Torque Control To prevent shifting shock on some models, the ignition timing is retarded temporarily during gear shifting in order to reduce the engine’s torque. The TCCS and ECT ECU monitors engine speed signals (Ne) and transmission output shaft speed (No. 2 speed sensor) then determines how much to retard the ignition timing based on shift pattern selection and throttle opening angle.
There's lots of info in the attachment about ignition timing, but it doesn't say anything about the PWR switch altering ignition timing.
This is what it says about the transmission, which is similar to the info from the ECT section:
Torque Control Correction This correction reduces shift shock and the result is that the driver feels smoother shifts. With an electronically-controlled transaxle, each clutch and brake in the planetary gear unit of the transmission or transaxle generates shock to some extent during shifting. In some models, this shock is minimized by delaying the ignition timing when gears are upshifted. When gear shifting starts, the ECM retards the engine ignition timing to reduce the engine torque. As a result, the shock of engagement and strain on the clutches and brakes of the planetary gear unit is reduced and the gear shift change is performed smoothly. The ignition timing angle is retarded a maximum of approximately 20º by this correction. This correction is not performed when the coolant temperature or battery voltage is below a predetermined level.
Last edited by Toymota; 08-23-12 at 07:32 PM.
08-23-12, 07:37 PM
#330
And FWIW, the new GS (which runs the same transmission as the 350, just "improved") explicitly states that its various "modes" change the throttle map
http://www.lexus.com/models/GS/image...S-Brochure.pdf
(scroll down to driving modes)
We of course can't know for sure, from that, that ECT-PWR is changing the throttle map on the IS, but between that and the fact we know for sure snow does, and that PWR did in older Toyota/Lexus transmissions, it sure seems likely it's still doing so now.
The "easy" test of course would be someone find a reliable way to run a fixed gas pedal position (Hey Balanced, we could finally use those robots now!), put the pedal at 20% on a flat, straight, road and check the speed you maintain at.
Now switch to ECT-PWR and wait a minute or two. Did your speed or rpms change? (even better of course would be if you could data log the throttle position- that'd tell you exactly how much, if any, the throttle opening changed switching to PWR from normal at the same pedal pressure.)
http://www.lexus.com/models/GS/image...S-Brochure.pdf
(scroll down to driving modes)
We of course can't know for sure, from that, that ECT-PWR is changing the throttle map on the IS, but between that and the fact we know for sure snow does, and that PWR did in older Toyota/Lexus transmissions, it sure seems likely it's still doing so now.
The "easy" test of course would be someone find a reliable way to run a fixed gas pedal position (Hey Balanced, we could finally use those robots now!), put the pedal at 20% on a flat, straight, road and check the speed you maintain at.
Now switch to ECT-PWR and wait a minute or two. Did your speed or rpms change? (even better of course would be if you could data log the throttle position- that'd tell you exactly how much, if any, the throttle opening changed switching to PWR from normal at the same pedal pressure.)