Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Well, it's a bit less of a gap from the Supra to the IS350...and you might wanna check what the price of a new Mk4 Supra was when it was introduced if you wanna keep including it...(hint: you'd have to stop leaving the IS-F out)

In fairness, nobody else was selling a lot of performance stuff in this period either though. Nissan dropped their Z for years... the RX-7 was gone...GM dropped the F-bodies...

You could point out BMW still made the 3 series during this time, but it was pretty sad on power, and Lexus offered the IS300 with comparable (not very good stock) performance.



Yes, really.

When the IS350 came out the other cars in its class were:

BMW 330. Which was embarrassingly slower. It was barely faster than a 250.

Acura TL-S. Again crushed by the 350 in performance (and driving the wrong wheels)

Infiniti G35. Bear in mind- the "better engine" one didn't come out till 2007... so this lost too...and still lost with the better engine, it just got closer.

Please show me one where it was being beaten in performance. Which was the topic you were complaining about. Because the IS was class leading there. Which was why your comments made no sense.

For example:
http://forums.motortrend.com/70/7268...-is/index.html

G35 vs. Acura TLs vs IS350


From Edmunds (330i vs. IS350)

Or Road and Track (IS350 vs. G35 vs. Acura Tl-S)

So, yes, class leading. As in leader of its class.

Not sure what shootouts you were reading...



you can turn it off on the 06 too... and again... what?

From motortrend again:

Initial B

iTrader: (2)

Kurtz - thanks for the reply, they are always entertaining. That's a lot of work to express your opinion, but I'm at work, so I'll be a bit more brief.

Supra - yes, I'm familiar, I had a '97 6-spd. My point about the 'sports' drought from Toyota has nothing to do with price, so my point remains valid, nice try.

Nissan, whom I still view as Toyota's main rival, especially in their homeland, started things back up in '03 with the Z. Mazda had/has the RX-8 & Miata. BMW had/has the M3.Toyota waited until '08 with the IS-F. Yes, the IS300 was around, maybe that counts somewhat, I suppose, but it was never enough to get me excited.

Acura TL - it's FWD and irrelevant as you mentioned. The fact that the IS350 was ranked higher than it is not even worth mentioning.

G35/37 - available with a stick. 330 - available with a stick and that magic BMW handling feel.

'06 pedal dance - if you're honestly content with that as being a viable solution, then I don't know what to say. wow.

Finally, here's 1 test:

http://www.insideline.com/infiniti/g...rt-sedans.html

I simply don't feel like looking up more. If you're happy driving your sports sedan around in "D", then more power to you. I feel like Toyota can do better, and I'm sure in the next few years, my point will be proven.

You know, it's funny - I never said the IS350 was not fast enough, so no need to focus on 0-60 or acceleration times among various. My initial point in this thread was about 2 things - the IS350's transmission...and Toyota's lack of leadership with anything sporting between 1998 and 2008.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Then why wasn't I allowed to bring up the IS-F a couple posts ago without you complaining about price?


Toyota obviously doesn't agree with you since they've largely gotten out of the RWD car business under that nameplate... the importing of the IS300 as Lexus not a toyota made it clear, prior to 2003, that they didn't see the toyota brand as one that should be competing with a car like the Z.

We see they STILL feel that way by the fact they plan to brand the FT-86 as a Scion, not a Toyota.

Given Toyotas vastly better performance financially in the time period of the 2000s than Nissan it seems like they had a better idea than you on this.

In the meantime, they offered the IS300 under the Lexus brand during the 01-05 period as a competitor to the 3-series BMW, and as even you seem to agree, it offered class-comparable performance even if it didn't blow away said competition.


Wait... you're counting the Miata?

Ok, then Toyota was fine... the similar MR2 was sold in the period you're discussing.... last model year was 2005... and the IS350 first model year was 2006... No gap at all!



Well, other than the fact everyone in the industry put it in the same class of car, and all the sports car mags did too... but ok... still doesn't speak to the fact the 350 was best in class ahead of all the OTHER similar cars the time in PERFORMANCE, which was WHAT YOU WERE GOING ON ABOUT.

Available with a stick is a negative in my book.

it's not 1953 anymore.

Sticks suck for performance.

Nissan realized this with the GT-R... Lexus did with the IS-F... even Porsche is realizing it- want the best performing of any model porsche that offers all choices? You're not gonna have a clutch pedal in it.


But again- you were discussing performance

The IS350 crushed the BMW 330i here, and was ahead of the G35 as well.

Hence- best in class. You know, exactly like I said.

Given it significantly outperformed all other cars in its class if you take 10 seconds on startup, yeah.

Complaining there would be like saying the GTR sucks for performance if it doesn't offer keyless entry.

Of course you can eliminate the need with a traction ECU swap if you really care that much.

What?

First, that test is a couple years AFTER the IS350 was introduced. Remember- I pointed out it was best in class when it came out?

Second- the IS350 still beats all those cars except the BMW (which came out AFTER the IS) in performance... so I'm not sure how that helps your case?

Lexus IS350: 0-60: 5.3, 1/4 mile: 13.8
Infiniti G35: 0-60: 5.5, 1/4 mile: 13.9
Mercedes C350: 5.9, 14.3;
Caddy CTS: 0-60: 6.3, 1/4 mile: 14.8;
BMW 335i: 0-60: 5, 1/4 mile: 13.6;



I'm sure you don't, since they all prove you wrong... like the 3 I posted for example.

Huh?

Putting it in D is faster than anything else.

Even in an IS-F that's the case.

I thought we were discussing performance here, right?

Humans shift slower than computers do.



No it wasn't... you're changing your story now...lemme remind you:



First- not only did you not specify IS350, you explicitly mention the 250... so the F should certainly be allowed.

The IS-F has a vastly quicker shifting and more responsive transmission than VW does. That should "count"

When I originally brought this up you crowed about the price of the F... then later said price didn't matter...? So which is it?


Apart from which... are you discussing performance (where automatics rule) or fun which is totally subjective?

To me a manual is the opposite of fun. I hate driving them... They're more work for inferior results.

To you, apparently, doing more and getting less performance is fun. That's fine, it's your OPINION, but it's not a subjective fact like performance is.

Which one did you really mean to be discussing?

Again, that's NOT what you said originally...

This says they haven't had a respectable performance vehicle since 1998.

I pointed out the Is350, introduced in mid-2005, was a class-leading vehicle in performance.

Then you insisted it wasn't and all the comparisons in magazines showed it losing out, and I gave you example after example of you being wrong about that too.

(plus, as I said, virtually EVERYONE dropped their performance cars in the 99-early 2000s period so it was hardly a toyota specific problem)

Even worse- as counter examples you included the Miata... which gets Toyota off the hook ENTIRELY since they had the comparable MR2 during that time period.






So anyway... to sum up... Toyota continued to offer cars in the class till 2005 (MR2, since the Miata counts in your book) and has since made it clear they do not see any reason to compete in the class anymore, pushing cars in the class to Lexus and now apparently Scion as well with the FT-86... Lexus offered them since 2001 (IS300)... The IS-F has offered a better transmission than anybody you're talking about since early 2007... and the IS350 was the class leader in performance when it was introduced in 2005, outperforming every car in its class, and continued to best everyone in that category except the 335i even years later.

somatic

iTrader: (2)

QUOTE OPIf you had owned my IS you would have traded in the first 500
miles when unintended acceleration almost launched mymom, wife, and
me across a parking lot and onto interstate traffic. The cause was not well known until the infamous State Trooper and his family were killed during a 911 call.
QUOTE

ughh.....did he really go there? There has never been a replication of UI in thousands of tests, and if you really did witness it, you SHOULD have gotten rid of the car way back when. My whole life I've grown up in and around Toyotas, my last four cars have been Toyota products, and I sold hundreds of Toyotas over my four years selling them, and I never ONCE had a single customer/friend/relative tell me about it happening to them.
But whatever dude, enjoy the new car

scgt652

The OP must have not read the Consumer Reports review where they trashed the new Jetta. Or the Car & Driver comparison where the Jetta placed dead last. Those two magazines rarely agree on anything. But they both agree that the new Jetta is a POS.

Initial B

iTrader: (2)

Kurtz - I'm starting to think you have some type of mental disorder, maybe OCD. Or maybe you're retired and simply love to argue, I dunno.

I never brought up performance in my first post. Read that last sentence again until it sinks in. My post was about the DSG offered in the VW for $30-40k and the fact that Toyota still doesn't offer one, and the fact that they haven't had a legit sports vehicle since 1998.

Have you looked at the Toyota website since 1998? There are about 35 SUV's and no sports cars; why are you hell-bent on defending them? Again, I'm sure things will be improving with Akio, but to say that Toyota has been AWOL for driving enthusiasts from 1998 to 2008 is nothing but the obvious truth.

You are NOT a driving enthusiast, obviously, since you are content with simply pressing the gas pedal and steering in your automatic whatever. Others want to control the car and the gear that it is in. Many of us don't sit at home and obsess over a tenth on 0-60 times; we like to go out and drive on the backroads or canyons, or do track days. The last thing I would want to do is a track day in an automatic anything. What's the point of that? May as well just play Gran Turismo at home.

I owned an S2000 for four years for only 1 reason - Toyota offered me nothing. But I wanted something fun to drive at the time, so I had to go to a different brand.

I mercifully did not mention the MR-S because it was such a pathetic POS after the Gen II. The fact that they had a Celica motor readily available that they could have put in it and chose not to was insult to injury.

I mentioned the Miata, which I new you'd bite on, because, although it is slow as hell, it has been consistent with Mazda's ethos and has been offered ongoing. It's also widely touted to be a fun sports car to drive. Then there's Toyota, who had the Supra, the MR2, the Celica All-Trac....and then nothing, for years & years.

Face it - you're not a driving enthusiast in any sense - you're just someone who likes to quote 0-60 stats on a forum and press a gas pedal from one stoplight to the next.

Go ahead, reply to this, and try to convince yourself that I mentioned acceleration or anything else having to do with numbers, because I didn't. Toyota needs to *offer* a proper tranny in the IS350, plain and simple.

I'm not saying they should get rid of the slushbox with the fake paddles for people like yourself, but there should be a tranny that actually offers manual control of some sort available on their 'sports sedan' for the real drivers out there.

cloo7

i dont think it is a downgrade. he is completely happy with it, so the brand shouldnt matter. if i buy MB, would that be an upgrade? I am sure you are going to say reliability problem associated with MB, but i am pretty sure Lexus is not that perfect either. It is a never ending comparison of status thing.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Replica, in the future please keep your debate focused on the discussion topic, not on the people posting in the thread. You can disagree without the personal commentary and insults. Keep it polite and mature in the future.

This thread is closed