Has Lexus improved the M/T in the IS250?
01-27-11, 06:09 PM
#1
Has Lexus improved the M/T in the IS250?
When I was looking at IS250s 3-4 years ago, I was dead set on getting the M/T - until I drove it. It was awful - clunky, rough shifting - and I've driven M/Ts for over 45 years. I ended up getting the slushbox.
My daughter is now looking at a new IS250 and we were wondering if Lexus has improved the shift quality of the manual transmission and clutch (she's an M/T die-hard like me)?
My daughter is now looking at a new IS250 and we were wondering if Lexus has improved the shift quality of the manual transmission and clutch (she's an M/T die-hard like me)?
01-27-11, 06:39 PM
#5
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No change to the manual since 2006. Still the RA62. Not a very good design at all.
01-28-11, 06:50 AM
#6
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It may not be any better stock, but there are several changes/mods that you might want to take a look at:
1. F-Sport short shifter
2. Fidanza lightweight flywheel
3. Spec 2 clutch
People have said that those three will make it a completely different animal. I've only done #1 so far, so I can't personally report anything, but even for me, the short-shifter kit + f-sport **** made quite a difference.
A BMW would drive better, is tighter in both tranny and suspension. If you want the ultimate shifter, go for the S2000 or Civic Si. That 6-spd is killer and still the best out there (even Car and Driver said so); even better than supercar MTs.
1. F-Sport short shifter
2. Fidanza lightweight flywheel
3. Spec 2 clutch
People have said that those three will make it a completely different animal. I've only done #1 so far, so I can't personally report anything, but even for me, the short-shifter kit + f-sport **** made quite a difference.
A BMW would drive better, is tighter in both tranny and suspension. If you want the ultimate shifter, go for the S2000 or Civic Si. That 6-spd is killer and still the best out there (even Car and Driver said so); even better than supercar MTs.
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01-28-11, 08:14 AM
#8
BMW hands down has some of the best manual transmissions today! They aren't rough and they shift nicely but still give you that sporty feel. 328i with a manual transmission sounds like the perfect idea to me too if you were looking at a manual is250. My buddy has a 335i manual..amazing car.
01-28-11, 10:50 AM
#9
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All the manuals these days are compromised by something. Most have multi-piece flywheels with springs in them to reduce driveline shock because the gearbox guys figured out they could run smaller, lighter synchros if they reduced the mass of the friction disc (synchros have to fight friction disc inertia, so reducing the mass means the synchros can be smaller and still survive warranty). Because they take the springs out of the friction disc, they have to put some shock limiter inline to replace it, so we get 40 lb flywheels with springs in them.
These flywheels (usually made by LuK) also have a tendency to wear out in ways conventional flywheels don't. You're driving down the road, step on the gas, and hear a "ball bearings in a coffee can" noise. You think it's something really serious (well, it's freakin' LOUD) but it's just the flywheel's springs rattling. This is not unique to the IS250 MTM. BMW, Porsche, Audi, VW, Chevrolet, and others are using these flywheels. They're RIDICULOUSLY expensive, AND they can only be resurfaced by someone who really knows what's up with these things. Your average resurfacing operation won't be able to deliver because they can't control the metal dust and abrasive dust so it gets into the bearing supporting the "dual masses" and turns the whole thing into an expensive boat anchor pretty quickly.
Yes, you can replace the OEM flywheel with a lightweight flywheel. Your transmission will not like you for this. The synchros will rattle unless you put in a sprung hub disc, and if you put in a sprung hub disc, your synchros will wear out prematurely. Again your transmission will not like you for this.
After owning nothing but manuals for 25 years, I bought the IS350 with the auto because I already had a Scion tC and the IS 250 with MTM has about the same performance (albeit with more luxury, but luxury is secondary in my list of priorities). The tC got a lightweight flywheel and it worked perfectly because the original flywheel was solid steel. My Supra had the LuK dual mass and everyone who has put a light flywheel in a Supra (myself included) has had a nasty rattle at idle which makes the car sound like a diesel. Loved everything else about it, but I guarantee you, the noise isn't pretty. The IS350's auto works well. The IS F's gearbox will make you never want another manual. I'm sure the dual clutch systems (when they don't have software issues) are equally capable, and while they don't provide the sense of accomplishment a good heel/toe downshift does, they do provide a level of consistency and reliability no human can match. Even after 44 years of driving manuals on the farm, road, and track, I can't do what the gearbox in my F does as consistently and reliably as it does.
To fully ice the cake - no manufacturer is dumping development money into manual transmissions. All the money is going into automated shifting for a whole lot of good reasons. LuK has developed inexpensive systems to automate clutch actuation and gear control sufficient to make even the entry level cars affordable without resorting to three pedals. It's on their site...
Manuals are a quickly (and I mean very quickly) dying breed.
These flywheels (usually made by LuK) also have a tendency to wear out in ways conventional flywheels don't. You're driving down the road, step on the gas, and hear a "ball bearings in a coffee can" noise. You think it's something really serious (well, it's freakin' LOUD) but it's just the flywheel's springs rattling. This is not unique to the IS250 MTM. BMW, Porsche, Audi, VW, Chevrolet, and others are using these flywheels. They're RIDICULOUSLY expensive, AND they can only be resurfaced by someone who really knows what's up with these things. Your average resurfacing operation won't be able to deliver because they can't control the metal dust and abrasive dust so it gets into the bearing supporting the "dual masses" and turns the whole thing into an expensive boat anchor pretty quickly.
Yes, you can replace the OEM flywheel with a lightweight flywheel. Your transmission will not like you for this. The synchros will rattle unless you put in a sprung hub disc, and if you put in a sprung hub disc, your synchros will wear out prematurely. Again your transmission will not like you for this.
After owning nothing but manuals for 25 years, I bought the IS350 with the auto because I already had a Scion tC and the IS 250 with MTM has about the same performance (albeit with more luxury, but luxury is secondary in my list of priorities). The tC got a lightweight flywheel and it worked perfectly because the original flywheel was solid steel. My Supra had the LuK dual mass and everyone who has put a light flywheel in a Supra (myself included) has had a nasty rattle at idle which makes the car sound like a diesel. Loved everything else about it, but I guarantee you, the noise isn't pretty. The IS350's auto works well. The IS F's gearbox will make you never want another manual. I'm sure the dual clutch systems (when they don't have software issues) are equally capable, and while they don't provide the sense of accomplishment a good heel/toe downshift does, they do provide a level of consistency and reliability no human can match. Even after 44 years of driving manuals on the farm, road, and track, I can't do what the gearbox in my F does as consistently and reliably as it does.
To fully ice the cake - no manufacturer is dumping development money into manual transmissions. All the money is going into automated shifting for a whole lot of good reasons. LuK has developed inexpensive systems to automate clutch actuation and gear control sufficient to make even the entry level cars affordable without resorting to three pedals. It's on their site...
Manuals are a quickly (and I mean very quickly) dying breed.
01-28-11, 11:34 AM
#10
All the manuals these days are compromised by something. Most have multi-piece flywheels with springs in them to reduce driveline shock because the gearbox guys figured out they could run smaller, lighter synchros if they reduced the mass of the friction disc (synchros have to fight friction disc inertia, so reducing the mass means the synchros can be smaller and still survive warranty). Because they take the springs out of the friction disc, they have to put some shock limiter inline to replace it, so we get 40 lb flywheels with springs in them.
These flywheels (usually made by LuK) also have a tendency to wear out in ways conventional flywheels don't. You're driving down the road, step on the gas, and hear a "ball bearings in a coffee can" noise. You think it's something really serious (well, it's freakin' LOUD) but it's just the flywheel's springs rattling. This is not unique to the IS250 MTM. BMW, Porsche, Audi, VW, Chevrolet, and others are using these flywheels. They're RIDICULOUSLY expensive, AND they can only be resurfaced by someone who really knows what's up with these things. Your average resurfacing operation won't be able to deliver because they can't control the metal dust and abrasive dust so it gets into the bearing supporting the "dual masses" and turns the whole thing into an expensive boat anchor pretty quickly.
Yes, you can replace the OEM flywheel with a lightweight flywheel. Your transmission will not like you for this. The synchros will rattle unless you put in a sprung hub disc, and if you put in a sprung hub disc, your synchros will wear out prematurely. Again your transmission will not like you for this.
After owning nothing but manuals for 25 years, I bought the IS350 with the auto because I already had a Scion tC and the IS 250 with MTM has about the same performance (albeit with more luxury, but luxury is secondary in my list of priorities). The tC got a lightweight flywheel and it worked perfectly because the original flywheel was solid steel. My Supra had the LuK dual mass and everyone who has put a light flywheel in a Supra (myself included) has had a nasty rattle at idle which makes the car sound like a diesel. Loved everything else about it, but I guarantee you, the noise isn't pretty. The IS350's auto works well. The IS F's gearbox will make you never want another manual. I'm sure the dual clutch systems (when they don't have software issues) are equally capable, and while they don't provide the sense of accomplishment a good heel/toe downshift does, they do provide a level of consistency and reliability no human can match. Even after 44 years of driving manuals on the farm, road, and track, I can't do what the gearbox in my F does as consistently and reliably as it does.
To fully ice the cake - no manufacturer is dumping development money into manual transmissions. All the money is going into automated shifting for a whole lot of good reasons. LuK has developed inexpensive systems to automate clutch actuation and gear control sufficient to make even the entry level cars affordable without resorting to three pedals. It's on their site...
Manuals are a quickly (and I mean very quickly) dying breed.
These flywheels (usually made by LuK) also have a tendency to wear out in ways conventional flywheels don't. You're driving down the road, step on the gas, and hear a "ball bearings in a coffee can" noise. You think it's something really serious (well, it's freakin' LOUD) but it's just the flywheel's springs rattling. This is not unique to the IS250 MTM. BMW, Porsche, Audi, VW, Chevrolet, and others are using these flywheels. They're RIDICULOUSLY expensive, AND they can only be resurfaced by someone who really knows what's up with these things. Your average resurfacing operation won't be able to deliver because they can't control the metal dust and abrasive dust so it gets into the bearing supporting the "dual masses" and turns the whole thing into an expensive boat anchor pretty quickly.
Yes, you can replace the OEM flywheel with a lightweight flywheel. Your transmission will not like you for this. The synchros will rattle unless you put in a sprung hub disc, and if you put in a sprung hub disc, your synchros will wear out prematurely. Again your transmission will not like you for this.
After owning nothing but manuals for 25 years, I bought the IS350 with the auto because I already had a Scion tC and the IS 250 with MTM has about the same performance (albeit with more luxury, but luxury is secondary in my list of priorities). The tC got a lightweight flywheel and it worked perfectly because the original flywheel was solid steel. My Supra had the LuK dual mass and everyone who has put a light flywheel in a Supra (myself included) has had a nasty rattle at idle which makes the car sound like a diesel. Loved everything else about it, but I guarantee you, the noise isn't pretty. The IS350's auto works well. The IS F's gearbox will make you never want another manual. I'm sure the dual clutch systems (when they don't have software issues) are equally capable, and while they don't provide the sense of accomplishment a good heel/toe downshift does, they do provide a level of consistency and reliability no human can match. Even after 44 years of driving manuals on the farm, road, and track, I can't do what the gearbox in my F does as consistently and reliably as it does.
To fully ice the cake - no manufacturer is dumping development money into manual transmissions. All the money is going into automated shifting for a whole lot of good reasons. LuK has developed inexpensive systems to automate clutch actuation and gear control sufficient to make even the entry level cars affordable without resorting to three pedals. It's on their site...
Manuals are a quickly (and I mean very quickly) dying breed.
as I do love a good manual gearbox.
01-28-11, 10:41 PM
#12
Despite the shortcomings of a dual-mass flywheel (heavy), unsprung disc (chatters sometimes), pull type release bearing (noisy), and long throw shifter (loose feel), I still love my 6MT. Yes I've driven an IS-F, and it is quite fantastic indeed. Would I prefer it with a manual, even knowing that it might be slower/worse fuel mileage? Absolutely. I love manual transmissions, I must have one.
On the IS250, the clutch/pedal feel is actually pretty good in my opinion, however the off-idle rpm rise is unsettling, especially at first. I'm pretty used to it now, so it seems normal, but I sure notice when I get into a solid flywheel car, the difference.
Still, if you didn't like it years ago, you won't like it now, nothing has changed.
Jeff
On the IS250, the clutch/pedal feel is actually pretty good in my opinion, however the off-idle rpm rise is unsettling, especially at first. I'm pretty used to it now, so it seems normal, but I sure notice when I get into a solid flywheel car, the difference.
Still, if you didn't like it years ago, you won't like it now, nothing has changed.
Jeff
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